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MMOs so simple even Americans can play them

Attend4455Attend4455 Member Posts: 161

"We want to give rewards even in that tutorial where you can do nothing wrong because that is what society has led American kids to expect."

Industry veteran Don Daglow on how American society is different, and how many differences lead to games performing differently than in Europe.

In this free GDC Europe 2012 lecture, Daglow - co-creator of the '90s online game Neverwinter Nights, one of the first graphical MMORPGs, offers up 5 tips for designing for American online players, including advice on user interface, the amount of text in-game, and the craving for recognition as an individual.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196118/Video_Don_Daglows_5_design_tips_to_cater_to_American_online_gamers.php

I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

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Comments

  • thegreatestagainthegreatestagain Member Posts: 35
    generalization is bad
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,523


    Originally posted by thegreatestagain
    generalization is bad
    But he is right. America is made of a society where "everybody wins." T-ball and youth soccer/European football do not keep score any more. No more gold stars for excellence. Anything that can make another child "feel bad" is shunned.

    Then, they hit the real world.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Member RarePosts: 5,361
    Theres a reason why linear shooters are so popular in America.  None of my friends even like rpgs.  They didnt like the first Mass Effect but loved the 2 and 3.
  • thegreatestagainthegreatestagain Member Posts: 35
    u are from the US, ive lived in a few places, its the same everywhere, and while trophy criticism is a common argument or complaint at least the kids are out doing something a lot just sit inside on their ass all day and do nothing if anything its for them to remember the season and what they did; not every person in this country is the same
  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

     

    Then, they hit the real world.

    and go on shooting sprees.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • DihoruDihoru Member Posts: 2,731
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by thegreatestagain
    generalization is bad

    But he is right. America is made of a society where "everybody wins." T-ball and youth soccer/European football do not keep score any more. No more gold stars for excellence. Anything that can make another child "feel bad" is shunned.

     

    Then, they hit the real world.

    It may seem sadistic but I kind of like this system... viewed from afar with a bag of popcorn it is as viscerally entertaining for me as landing a ammo rack hit on a aircobra in War Thunder (if you do not get the reference count yourself lucky... you learn to hate those and specific kind of russian plane with a passion rarely encountered).

    image
  • BjelarBjelar Member UncommonPosts: 398

    Why is it I feel I do little but defend Americans these days.

     

    Pull yourself together Americans, so I don't have to :p

     

    I think most of the reason computer games are so easy these days is that we aren't 12 anymore. A lot of things are easier for adults.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,523


    Originally posted by Dihoru

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by thegreatestagain
    generalization is bad
    But he is right. America is made of a society where "everybody wins." T-ball and youth soccer/European football do not keep score any more. No more gold stars for excellence. Anything that can make another child "feel bad" is shunned.Then, they hit the real world.
    It may seem sadistic but I kind of like this system... viewed from afar with a bag of popcorn it is as viscerally entertaining for me as landing a ammo rack hit on a aircobra in War Thunder (if you do not get the reference count yourself lucky... you learn to hate those and specific kind of russian plane with a passion rarely encountered).
    I don't get the reference but am imagining some things :)

    I am confused, though. Which system do you like? The "everybody wins" system (which doesn't seem sadistic to me) or the "real world" system?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Member UncommonPosts: 2,662
    Originally posted by Attend4455

    "We want to give rewards even in that tutorial where you can do nothing wrong because that is what society has led American kids to expect."

    Industry veteran Don Daglow on how American society is different, and how many differences lead to games performing differently than in Europe.

    In this free GDC Europe 2012 lecture, Daglow - co-creator of the '90s online game Neverwinter Nights, one of the first graphical MMORPGs, offers up 5 tips for designing for American online players, including advice on user interface, the amount of text in-game, and the craving for recognition as an individual.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/196118/Video_Don_Daglows_5_design_tips_to_cater_to_American_online_gamers.php

    Such a utterly silly premise. I grew up in the 80's. Young black male in America. There was no suger-coated lollipop childhood. So is the audience this whack-job referring to privileged white kids? You know, the same privileged white kids often seen on Disney channel sitcoms and WB tween dramas? I hope that's not where they are getting their research from, because that's exactly what it sounds like. Reality check fool, as it stands the minority population has been growing at a rate of between 63 to 66% from 1980 to present. While unfortunately my fellow white Americans have seen a very slow growth rate of 6 to 8% in the same time frame.

     

    Point is, mmorpgs should be developed from the ideas and dreams of their creators, not the ridiculous notion of how they perceive the behavior patterns of one group of Americans. Such a silly notion needs to be dropped and forgotten quickly.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    Please don't denigrate my ethnic group.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by thegreatestagain
    generalization is bad

    But he is right. America is made of a society where "everybody wins." T-ball and youth soccer/European football do not keep score any more. No more gold stars for excellence. Anything that can make another child "feel bad" is shunned.

     

    Then, they hit the real world.

     

    Yep and the funny thing is that the more traditional American values were opposite of what they are now.  Then something changed.  A bit of irony is that the "everyone gets a trophy as to not hurt Jimmy's feelings" idea comes from some of the same individuals that say we should be like the rest of the world... that are now pointing out the irrelevance of "everyone wins".

     

    Just doesn't make sense.

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    Originally posted by Bjelar

    I think most of the reason computer games are so easy these days is that we aren't 12 anymore. A lot of things are easier for adults.

    There's truth to this. Society has got better and better at games. They aren't 'new' and unknown anymore.

    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    How is this guys opinion on modern MMOs even relevant? He hasn't made a game since the 90s. Sounds more like he's bitter no one wants to hire him. Just my opinion though.

    image
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,000
    Originally posted by aesperus
    SNIP

    Hating america is the cool thing to do right now, and will be for quite some time. Even though the world regularly enjoys our innovations, and bitches about us using technology we created. Oh, the irony.

    We aren't exactly blameless, but unlike our media most of us don't seem to drink that koolaid.

    I will say, though, that everyone's stuck in an instant-gratification mindset that just isn't sustainable. A lot of things are close to a breaking point I'm not sure if people really see coming.

    This here.  

     

    Don Daglow is getting in touch with his inner idiot with that statement and is just making himself look like an old fool. You know... the type that doesn't realize  he should stop trying to be a teen and that a 60 year old shaking his arse in the club with the 20 30 crowd isn't sexy and realize the girls are laughing at him not with him.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

    case: Coolermaster HAF932
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  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713
    Originally posted by aesperus

    I will say, though, that everyone's stuck in an instant-gratification mindset that just isn't sustainable. A lot of things are close to a breaking point I'm not sure if people really see coming.

    Have to agree there. I often feel like that is one of the problems with the economy people go on about. I always hear "the middle class is shrinking" but I think the middle class is demanding more and more. People don't save up to buy a car, a tv, a new couch etc. They put it all on credit struggle to pay the bills then talk about how Wall Street is robbing them.

    Even the poorer low income households have cell phones, Playstations, and big screen TVs. These are almost considered necessities now. I think if people lived with only the basics that our parents and grandparents generations lived with we would find ourselves in a far better financial situation.

    But that's not the world we live in anymore.

    image
  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,711

     If you ain't first, you're last.

     

    2nd place is just the first one to lose.

    That there is trademarked, not to be used without written permission of Ricky Bobby, Inc.

     

    Had to go watch Chapelle's race draft again, after reading some of the stuff in here.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,000
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by aesperus

    I will say, though, that everyone's stuck in an instant-gratification mindset that just isn't sustainable. A lot of things are close to a breaking point I'm not sure if people really see coming.

    Have to agree there. I often feel like that is one of the problems with the economy people go on about. I always hear "the middle class is shrinking" but I think the middle class is demanding more and more. People don't save up to buy a car, a tv, a new couch etc. They put it all on credit struggle to pay the bills then talk about how Wall Street is robbing them.

    Even the poorer low income households have cell phones, Playstations, and big screen TVs. These are almost considered necessities now. I think if people lived with only the basics that our parents and grandparents generations lived with we would find ourselves in a far better financial situation.

    But that's not the world we live in anymore.

    True but this isn't an american complaint problem, there are all kinds in every country.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

    case: Coolermaster HAF932
    PSU: Antec EA 750watt
    RAM: 4x2g G-SKILL DDR3-1600mhz 9-9-9-24
    Mb:Gigabyte GA-P55-UD4P
    CPU: i5-750 @4ghz
    GPU: gtx msi N760 TF 2GD5/OC
    cooling: Noctua NH-D14
    storage: seagate 600 240GB SSD, samsung evo 860 500gb SSD, 500GB x7200rpm HDD


  • GraeyGraey Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by aesperus

    I will say, though, that everyone's stuck in an instant-gratification mindset that just isn't sustainable. A lot of things are close to a breaking point I'm not sure if people really see coming.

    Have to agree there. I often feel like that is one of the problems with the economy people go on about. I always hear "the middle class is shrinking" but I think the middle class is demanding more and more. People don't save up to buy a car, a tv, a new couch etc. They put it all on credit struggle to pay the bills then talk about how Wall Street is robbing them.

    Even the poorer low income households have cell phones, Playstations, and big screen TVs. These are almost considered necessities now. I think if people lived with only the basics that our parents and grandparents generations lived with we would find ourselves in a far better financial situation.

    But that's not the world we live in anymore.

    Very well thought out post. I definitely agree. I am not a parent...yet. However my kids won't have a cell phone until at least 18...if that. And it will be restricted none of this text everyone type conversations...what the hell is that about. Facebook, instagram, etc. It seems like everyone has to be jacked in now a days. Always instant gratification. We have all this new technology but we have not adapted to the changes in how to use it.

    Instantly you talk to a woman you see on the street, she looks up your facebook account, google you some place on the internet. No one is private any more stuff is getting out of hand. Case in point....you ever just been in a crowded place and watched people...90% of the people are on a phone txting, games etc. Not paying attention to their surroundings. Secondly you ever been in a group of people and watch them having a conversation via text messaging...when they are in the same damn room....

  • GraeyGraey Member UncommonPosts: 281
    Originally posted by Xthos

     If you ain't first, you're last.

     

    2nd place is just the first one to lose.

    That there is trademarked, not to be used without written permission of Ricky Bobby, Inc.

     

    Had to go watch Chapelle's race draft again, after reading some of the stuff in here.

    Lol damn that was a good show. So many things were funny but hit home.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690
    So true OP!  Everything is laid out for them on a silver platter to win without earning your victory.  Too simple = boring and makes you lazy. Thats why mmos back in the day were great, you actually had to spend time and earn it. 
    30
  • Gurkha1969Gurkha1969 Member Posts: 3
    >.<
  • HokieHokie Member UncommonPosts: 1,063

    As one of the few American players of EVE when it first came out, I had to deal with almost that exact bigoted view.

    "It to complicated for Americans", "It actually requires people to think", "If its not linear they cant think enough to figure it out', "all they know how to play is Counter Strike", blah blah blah.

    Never knew how bigoted most Europeans were towards Americans till I played a game with a (large) majority of them. I had to put up with that shit on an almost daily basis.

    And I remembered some of those names when someone did a demographics by country break down of EVE not that long ago. And it showed almost 1/2 of EVE was populated by American players. I was happy to shove that d*** back in their faces. With most of them back pedeling and saying, "well if you total the EU we still are the larger majority." And I was happy to say " The EU isnt a country, and so by your own definition you are now stupider than most Americans and as a whole group of countries (in the EU) you all are just barely, (5.6%) smarter than just one country".

     

     

    And even though I havent read most of the responses to the OP dont get me started on the self loathing Americans that seem to be more common than ever. But then again we are a group of people who are more or less anti-social who spend a majority of our time within fantasy worlds. Its liable to produce a larger percentage of people who are self loathing and are more than happy to project their own sort comings and disappointments on society.

     

     

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    Games are easier largely because games are no longer ports of arcade titles that were designed to be suck quarters from players.  Games today are also much longer.  NES games can be beaten in under an hour by experienced players.  Games were made more difficult so that it would take weeks or months for a player to get through a game that only had a real length of about an hour.

    These games, video gaming is a billion dollar industry rivaling film.  Game developers are at the point now where they can create film-quality storylines with video game campaigns spanning 40-50 hours without having to integrate cheap game mechanics designed to kill the player over and over to give the game the illusion of longevity.

     

     

  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member UncommonPosts: 1,945
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by thegreatestagain
    generalization is bad

    But he is right. America is made of a society where "everybody wins." T-ball and youth soccer/European football do not keep score any more. No more gold stars for excellence. Anything that can make another child "feel bad" is shunned.

     

    Then, they hit the real world.

     

    No your experience is such as that. Mine is totally different.

    They just tossed me into that mix by generalizing. I'm a hardcore gemstone 3 playing, will pick up wow if I want ...mostly plays super system games type of player.

     

    I am American.

     

    Point is I play with gamers EXACTLY like my mentality. If it wasn't done on hardcore? You didn't do it at all.

     

    It's "people" such yourself that give rise to the stereotype simply because you are too ignorant to look beyond the media and your small bubble. You have chosen this ignorance as well.

     

    T-ball is practice for a sport as is little kids soccer. Even in soccer we lost. We didn't get a trophy or a win pizza. We lost. I'm not that old . I played the sport. Did you?

     

    T-ball? When we played it was to learn to hit a softball. T-ball is not a sport you twunk.

     

    Get out of your little bubble and stop talking out of your ass kiddo'.

  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member UncommonPosts: 1,945
    Originally posted by Hokie

    As one of the few American players of EVE when it first came out, I had to deal with almost that exact bigoted view.

    "It to complicated for Americans", "It actually requires people to think", "If its not linear they cant think enough to figure it out', "all they know how to play is Counter Strike", blah blah blah.

    Never knew how bigoted most Europeans were towards Americans till I played a game with a (large) majority of them. I had to put up with that shit on an almost daily bases.

    And I remembered some of those names when someone did a demographics by country break down of EVE not that long ago. And it showed almost 1/2 of EVE was populated by American players. I was happy to shove that d*** back in their faces. With most of them back pedeling and saying, "well if you total the EU we still are the larger majority." And I was happy to say " The EU isnt a country, and so by your own definition you are now stupider than most Americans and as a whole group of countries (in the EU) you all are just barely, (5.6%) smarter than just one country".

     

     

    And even though I havent read most of the responses to the OP dont get me started on the self loathing Americans that seem to be more common than ever. But then again we are a group of people who are more or less anti-social who spend a majority of our time within fantasy worlds. Its liable to produce a larger percentage of people who are self loathing and are more than happy to project their own sort comings and disappointments on society.

     

     

     

    This right here!

     

    I'm a decades long eve player too. I know exactly what you mean.

     

    The facts are bigots and marketing plans following on bigot notions fail.

     

    Don't believe take a look at EA... They thought every so dumb that they wanted the games played for them. Let me know how EA is doing in the business these days.

     

    What is more ironic is when I hear Americans help the mythos by stating "That's true we all get trophies" shut up. You didn't play a sport beyond 6 years old if that's how it was done. Your experience is nothing more that kids practicing.

     

    It cracks me up further by the sheer fact that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.

     

    If we did what euro's did?

     

    I can just assume everyone is highly racist, bigoted, jealous of resources, so on.

     

    But I don't. Because humans are humans. We are all dumb monkey people trying to figure out whoms stick is better.

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