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[Column] General: An Open Letter to the Game Industry

2

Comments

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Do they need to be in 80-90% of every MMORPG made today?

     

    yes. more option and choices is always better. seriously if you dont like a feature dont use it. why punish or deny everyone else because you have no self control

     That is always an extremely wrong way of trying to argue for features.

    Players are not going to put themselves at a handicap or detriment when compared to other players. For a lot of MMO gamers there is a level of competing with your fellow player. You will never enforce a harsh death penalty on yourself (deleting items or even rerolling upon death) if others don't have to do it because you will always be far behind them.

    Self control has absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Players want an even playing field with other players. It is just that they'd like to see an MMO here or there that has that even playing field including tougher death penalties and no hand holding. In a single player game that kind of stuff happens all the time. A gamer puts harsher penalties on themselves to make the game more interesting. But in an MMO it is rare because it fundamentally doesn't make any sense due to having a world filled with other gamers who can prosper by not using those same self enforced limitations.

    As I said before, it won't happen from a major publisher because players have already dictated the market. They went easy as all hell, fully guided, no thought involved games. An indie developer here and there will occasionally try to put out an MMO that is a lot harsher and involves using your brain, but it will always be niche this day and age just like movies that involve any level of intellect.

     

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Member UncommonPosts: 3,104
    Disagee with your #2.  MMO's should never die and after watching the MMOPRG.com panel at Pax with the Devs from Star Citizen, EQN, GW2, Wildstar and someone else they even talked about how MMO's should never die.  Part of the reason I play is because I know there is no ending and my character is persistent.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • eric_w66eric_w66 Member UncommonPosts: 1,006

    Ahh yes, I love the old "I want this "hard core feature" forced on everyone. Even though I have the option to do it to myself already, I will not do so voluntarily. I want it forced on everyone to suffer this idea I think is "fun". So fun in fact, I won't do it voluntarily..." argument.

     

    If something is so fun... and you won't do it on your own.... it probably isn't as fun as you think it is.

     
  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Member Posts: 2,697
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Do they need to be in 80-90% of every MMORPG made today?

     

    yes. more option and choices is always better. seriously if you dont like a feature dont use it. why punish or deny everyone else because you have no self control

     That is always an extremely wrong way of trying to argue for features.

    Players are not going to put themselves at a handicap or detriment when compared to other players. For a lot of MMO gamers there is a level of competing with your fellow player. You will never enforce a harsh death penalty on yourself (deleting items or even rerolling upon death) if others don't have to do it because you will always be far behind them.

    Self control has absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Players want an even playing field with other players. It is just that they'd like to see an MMO here or there that has that even playing field including tougher death penalties and no hand holding. In a single player game that kind of stuff happens all the time. A gamer puts harsher penalties on themselves to make the game more interesting. But in an MMO it is rare because it fundamentally doesn't make any sense due to having a world filled with other gamers who can prosper by not using those same self enforced limitations.

    As I said before, it won't happen from a major publisher because players have already dictated the market. They went easy as all hell, fully guided, no thought involved games. An indie developer here and there will occasionally try to put out an MMO that is a lot harsher and involves using your brain, but it will always be niche this day and age just like movies that involve any level of intellect.

     

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

     It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175

    Well, as much as I agree with you, I am a realist, I am a lot of things actually but that for another time.

    You want something different? You have 3 options, as I see it.

    1. Get tons of cash, pay to have what you want developed.

    2. Get tons of education and develop what you want developed.

    3. Wish into 1 hand, shit into the other and see what fills up first.

     

    That is it. End of story. "Said it before, I'll say it again.: Don't like it, don't play it."

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Do they need to be in 80-90% of every MMORPG made today?

     

    yes. more option and choices is always better. seriously if you dont like a feature dont use it. why punish or deny everyone else because you have no self control

     That is always an extremely wrong way of trying to argue for features.

    Players are not going to put themselves at a handicap or detriment when compared to other players. For a lot of MMO gamers there is a level of competing with your fellow player. You will never enforce a harsh death penalty on yourself (deleting items or even rerolling upon death) if others don't have to do it because you will always be far behind them.

    Self control has absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Players want an even playing field with other players. It is just that they'd like to see an MMO here or there that has that even playing field including tougher death penalties and no hand holding. In a single player game that kind of stuff happens all the time. A gamer puts harsher penalties on themselves to make the game more interesting. But in an MMO it is rare because it fundamentally doesn't make any sense due to having a world filled with other gamers who can prosper by not using those same self enforced limitations.

    As I said before, it won't happen from a major publisher because players have already dictated the market. They went easy as all hell, fully guided, no thought involved games. An indie developer here and there will occasionally try to put out an MMO that is a lot harsher and involves using your brain, but it will always be niche this day and age just like movies that involve any level of intellect.

     

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

     It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.

    Its the truth because YOU say so, huh? We'll I say what I said is the truth. so there. I dont guess you'd be willing to accept that though because yours is obviously the ONLY REAL truth.

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Member Posts: 2,697
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Do they need to be in 80-90% of every MMORPG made today?

     

    yes. more option and choices is always better. seriously if you dont like a feature dont use it. why punish or deny everyone else because you have no self control

     That is always an extremely wrong way of trying to argue for features.

    Players are not going to put themselves at a handicap or detriment when compared to other players. For a lot of MMO gamers there is a level of competing with your fellow player. You will never enforce a harsh death penalty on yourself (deleting items or even rerolling upon death) if others don't have to do it because you will always be far behind them.

    Self control has absolutely nothing to do with it at all. Players want an even playing field with other players. It is just that they'd like to see an MMO here or there that has that even playing field including tougher death penalties and no hand holding. In a single player game that kind of stuff happens all the time. A gamer puts harsher penalties on themselves to make the game more interesting. But in an MMO it is rare because it fundamentally doesn't make any sense due to having a world filled with other gamers who can prosper by not using those same self enforced limitations.

    As I said before, it won't happen from a major publisher because players have already dictated the market. They went easy as all hell, fully guided, no thought involved games. An indie developer here and there will occasionally try to put out an MMO that is a lot harsher and involves using your brain, but it will always be niche this day and age just like movies that involve any level of intellect.

     

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

     It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.

    Its the truth because YOU say so, huh? We'll I say what I said is the truth. so there. I dont guess you'd be willing to accept that though because yours is obviously the ONLY REAL truth.

     Mine is dictated by psychology and how the world works. Yours is based off of "I want it easy and get scared when someone mentions the possibility of MMOs making me use my mind to figure things out or my skill to over come challenges". I'll stick with my truths, thanks.

  • QarkQark Member Posts: 234
    New games suck... im too old for this new shXt, i dont have anything to play because i get bored in few hours....

    -------------------->
    Would you like some cheese with that whine?

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

     It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.

    Its the truth because YOU say so, huh? We'll I say what I said is the truth. so there. I dont guess you'd be willing to accept that though because yours is obviously the ONLY REAL truth.

    It's about human nature not opinion. If there's an easy path people will take it. That doesn't mean it was the better way. Saying just don't do it is no more effective than telling a smoker to just quit or a fat person to just lose weight. If it was as easy as just not doing it, it would be a problem in the first place.

    Tieing one hand behind your back and going into a fight is somewhat less fun when you lose but know you could of won if you didn't handicap yourself. If you were only ever given the option to use one hand you'd know you did all you could and simply lost the fight.

    Just because games are made easy doesn't mean they're better. If that were true you'd log in be at max lvl with everything you could ever want and just look at the screen thinking wow this game was awesome. I don't see many people advocating for that in an mmo.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Typical reaction from the I want it now generation.   Ever heard of actually working towards something instead of having it handed to you?

    You might find that using your brain once in a while, might be fun. 

  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Two reasons:

    1. Because it's impossible to remain competitive in a competitive game without using these features if they are present....

    I tried to not use them in several of my last MMO's played, and my guild left me in the dust so fast that I had no one to group with.  

    2.  Most quests are not written with hints as to where to find objectives anymore.  They are written from the perspective that you will be lead by the hand via waypoints right to your objective.

  • MondoA2JMondoA2J Member Posts: 258

    "giggling nymphs who engage in jiggly pillow fights at every level gain, and set it in the magical land of Boobitopia."  ----- MMO of the Year.

    Oh wait that was all a reference to Scarlet blade. My bad nevermind...

    Cute article. I think your were attacking Defiance with that last part? Not sure.

    Think your sentiment is shared by most.

    MMORPG Gamers/Developers need a reality check!

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
    Originally posted by TribeofOne

     

    I'm sorry that's just a cop out and you know it.  you have a choice to use these features and saying you can't not use them because other choose to is just silly and shows a complete lack of self responsibility and maturity.

     It isn't the least bit of a cop out and truly doesn't have even a sliver of correlation to maturity or responsibility. I can also clearly see you would never understand that, but what I'm saying is the truth.

    Its the truth because YOU say so, huh? We'll I say what I said is the truth. so there. I dont guess you'd be willing to accept that though because yours is obviously the ONLY REAL truth.

    It's about human nature not opinion. If there's an easy path people will take it. That doesn't mean it was the better way. Saying just don't do it is no more effective than telling a smoker to just quit or a fat person to just lose weight. If it was as easy as just not doing it, it would be a problem in the first place.

    Tieing one hand behind your back and going into a fight is somewhat less fun when you lose but know you could of won if you didn't handicap yourself. If you were only ever given the option to use one hand you'd know you did all you could and simply lost the fight.

    Just because games are made easy doesn't mean they're better. If that were true you'd log in be at max lvl with everything you could ever want and just look at the screen thinking wow this game was awesome. I don't see many people advocating for that in an mmo.

    so we don't really want freedom and the pure sandbox. we want a very strict and limited ruleset that forces us to play a certain way because without it we would always choose the path of least resistance. Got ya.   People in real life NEVER make the hard choice. They never take the path less traveled. We all make decisions and  live based on what everyone else does.  ok.

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by ragz45
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Two reasons:

    1. Because it's impossible to remain competitive in a competitive game without using these features if they are present....

    I tried to not use them in several of my last MMO's played, and my guild left me in the dust so fast that I had no one to group with.  

    2.  Most quests are not written with hints as to where to find objectives anymore.  They are written from the perspective that you will be lead by the hand via waypoints right to your objective.

    I can understand your points in a PVP game but PVE mmos arent about competing against other players. in PvE that would be called jealousy and "keeping up with the Jones" which is a maturity and self discipline issue

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    How about leaving these features alone for those of us that use and enjoy them and instead why dont the rest of you show some freakin self discipline and restraint and CHOOSE NOT TO USE THEM

    Typical reaction from the I want it now generation.   Ever heard of actually working towards something instead of having it handed to you?

    You might find that using your brain once in a while, might be fun. 

    you talk about the "want it now" generation.. what about the personal responsibility generation. or the freedom of choice generation?

  • DrakynnDrakynn Member Posts: 2,030
    Shouldn't this be an open letter tot he MMO Developers/publishers???I don't think the people making Assassin's Creed games or the indie developers of Frozen Synapse will find much merit in this article.heh...
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by TribeofOne

    so we don't really want freedom and the pure sandbox. we want a very strict and limited ruleset that forces us to play a certain way because without it we would always choose the path of least resistance. Got ya.   People in real life NEVER make the hard choice. They never take the path less traveled. We all make decisions and  live based on what everyone else does.  ok.

    Oh please, don't try and be a martyr or something now. The freedom people are looking for in sandbox games isn't to decide if they want a bib and someone to wipe up the drool from their chin or to wear big boy pants and figure out where a quest giver wants you to kill 10 rats. None of that belongs in a sandbox game at all so don't try and throw out some popular catch phrases to strawman this now.

    If that's what you consider hard choices in life I guess I envy and pity you.

     

  • ragz45ragz45 Member UncommonPosts: 810
    Originally posted by MondoA2J

    "giggling nymphs who engage in jiggly pillow fights at every level gain, and set it in the magical land of Boobitopia."  ----- MMO of the Year.

    Oh wait that was all a reference to Scarlet blade. My bad nevermind...

    Cute article. I think your were attacking Defiance with that last part? Not sure.

    Think your sentiment is shared by most.

    I think that last part could be accounted to about 60% of the mmorpg's out there.

  • FugenchutenzFugenchutenz Member UncommonPosts: 11
    I love you!
  • UO4everUO4ever Member Posts: 38

    This is my favourite thread in the forum..

     

    +10 any stat you like !

     

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    Maybe this should have been titled "An Open Letter to the Big Budget MMO Industry". There are a lot of indie game developers that do not deserve to be lumped into this broad generalization.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,303
    Originally posted by eric_w66

    Ahh yes, I love the old "I want this "hard core feature" forced on everyone. Even though I have the option to do it to myself already, I will not do so voluntarily. I want it forced on everyone to suffer this idea I think is "fun". So fun in fact, I won't do it voluntarily..." argument.

     

    If something is so fun... and you won't do it on your own.... it probably isn't as fun as you think it is.

     

    People play games together to have a shared experience. Part of that shared experience is to "experience" the highs and lows of the game together.

    It has more meaning and there is more of a shared connection when someone says "hey, did you make it through the caves of terror?" and they say "no man, I died" and of course we all know what happens if you "die in the CAVES OF TERROR!!!!"

    But if a game was easy peezy lemon squeezy and going through the caves of terror, and dieing, didn't really do much but give you a debuff where you turn pink then not only is there not much to share, win or lose, but someone voluntarily perma deathing their character doesn't really have resonance.

    The problem with your stance on this is that you, and others I imagine, want these games to be perfect little microcosms of whatever each individual wants. No connection or shared experience (there is a reason why people go to movie theaters you know) but each person just having their very own little experience not touched by, or touching, anyone else. Telling a character that if he wants "hardcore" then he should just go into a corner and do it and not really bother anyone else isn't really finding common experiences in game play.

    There is no such thing as "being forced" to experience  hardcore features. You either play on the appropriate server or play the game offered or you don't.

    Signing up for a hardcore (whatever that means) game and then complaining that it's hardcore seems odd. Same goes the other way as well. Signing up for a casual friendly game and complaining it's casual friendly is equally odd.

     

     

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • ElderRatElderRat Member CommonPosts: 899
    funny you should mention LOTRO at the end - a prime example of a good challenging game that has been nerfed to the point of being a solo game with other people playing it at the same time.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,303
    Originally posted by ElderRat
    funny you should mention LOTRO at the end - a prime example of a good challenging game that has been nerfed to the point of being a solo game with other people playing it at the same time.

    I think I'd like to point your observation in a different direction.

    I would say that, regardless of it being "a solo game with other people playing at the same time"  They took a very focused IP and somehow diluted the essence of it (or just lost sight of) what made it "The Lord of the Rings".

    Some friends decided to go back to it and "catch up" on the main quest. Man, I was carrying fruit, returning baskets, asked to kill frogs and beetles and essentially wonder "what world am I in"?

    Somehow, at least to the point I gotten to (and have just started again *crosses fingers*) the developers seem to have meant well but to have lost their way.

    At least in my opinion.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • StrommStromm Member Posts: 243
    Bravo ! Well said ! :-)
     
    Edit: Oh also, can you provide directions to Boobitopia!?
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