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The Sanbox is not the Holy Grail Many Think it is.
Arakazi
Member UncommonPosts: 911
I'm kinda troubled by the perception in these forums that sanbox games will solve everything that is wrong with MMOs. Having spent some time on DFOW, MO, AOW and EVE I can say with a some degree if confidence that unless the game has a solid framework in which to build the sanbox around, sanbox games can be just as bad if not worse than themeparks.
AOW and EVE are the best to come out so far, but the overall game design is very constraining in that players have limited choices in what and where they can build and craft, so much so that I would question if these are true sanboxes. DF and MO on the other hand are really poor games. I don't actually think it's the sanbox elements that make can make a game poor in itself, but the way it has been implemented. Moreover, I'm skeptical as whether it is possible to build a good MMO sandbox game with the current technology. There is very little if any physics in MMOs which is a big drawback for a sanbox, players also have to rely on objects created by the developers rather than there own original creations. There are also a number of other reasons I have reservations about sanbox games, which involve trolling and immersion breaking.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the sanbox is the way forward for MMOs, however it is not or should not be seen as a substitute for good design and iteration, interesting content and well crafted worlds.
Comments
If it's my head on a stick, then your out of luck. I promised it to somebody else.
I do
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
sandbox design can solve everything that's wrong with MMO's for me so I don't see the problem. It doesn't mean that every MMO that claims a sandbox design will be good, plenty will still suck. But at least there will be a chance that great games I want to play will be made, which is something themeparks can't do for me anymore. Sandbox worked with 1997 tech so zero concerns there either.
I don't think you need worry about that. My list is short and I doubt any of them are gamers.
However, my point is that you can't say that what people want won't work by looking at the games that currently exist. Obviously, since people are still yearning for something new, what they want isn't in any of those games.
hahaa
true
It is the holy grail because no one has yet to pull off the combination of a crafted world with sandbox included. A sandbox that screams AAA production quality has never seen the light of day... arguably SWG but again I say arguably. But never the less the Sandbox element is still present as the big difference between whats on the market currently.
So the main idea is that there has never been a AAA title released in which the emphasis was on freedom of choice and the ability to meaningfully and concretely affect the game world through actions.
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
I ... *worries*
If the games you played were good sandbox games people wouldnt be asking for a good sandbox game.
Closest to what I personally want is http://www.havenandhearth.com
A virtual world where I can build a village with friends wherever I want.
Go out hunting, farming, mining, exploring or just kill and steal.
(Don't be mistaken by the graphics and farming as it is a brutal game with perma death)
You can't find this any other game.
Desire for sandbox is basically desire for the rosy-hued past gaming life. It is the same as desires for spending 48 hours to camp a mob, desire for 80 man groups to do some BS, and desire for ridiculous death penalties.
It is people looking into their past gaming experience and not realizing that things have evolved past that.
This is not to say that the traditional themepark MMOs out now aren't boring. They are. They definitely are. But we need a new concept--not a return to an old outdated one--to get things going again.
Edit: I am excited by EQ Next's promises of a world that seems alive. Definitely no game thus far has remotely managed this. But I am oh so wary of their pay-to-win cash shop and wish it were pay-to-play with no cash shop at all (which no one does now, not even WoW, except possibly FFXIV coming soon.)
Sandbox is neat and players want it, but I'd argue what players 'need' to be happy is the entire Playground.
I suspect games that leverage interactivity with other players combined the player made content, then we might truly be happy.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
Well themeparks really screwed up the industry, so going back old school or to sandbox only seems reasonable. Not much more you can do to the dumbed down, feature lacking, non-social, and easy games they are making now. It feels like a console rpg to me, they took away the meaning behind mmorpg's. Beat the story and the game is worthless.
At least with a sandbox I have more options, more choices, and more freedom. I can make my own stories and do it my way. I can take part in crafting, pvp, pve, social interaction, housing, exploration, and so much more and never tied down to one or the other. I am not led down a path or into a maze every time I go out to adventure around the map.
I don't understand why so many want those dumbed down games.
I don't think any of the games you mention are true sandbox games, not when you compare them to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueIzp5w2QzY
http://wurmonline.com/
The main reason so many on these forums seem to think sandbox design will fix everything, is because most of them aren't still playing sandbox games. They've played one (sometimes 2) good sandboxes in the past, and are remembering how great they were! Then looking at today's themeparks, thinking 'well these experiences don't match the ones I remember from those other games'.
Very few posters here seem to actually take a good hard look at sandbox design (both the pros AND the cons). It's easy to get trapped in nostalgia, or the never-ending promises of games that don't exist (yet). For example one of the posters here linked a game talking about 'being able to build with his friends whereever they want!'. That sounds amazing, but if you think about it in the context of an MMO that's actually impossible.
For example, could you build a house where someone else has built a house? probably not. Will the game be nothing but houses people built? Probably not. So you can infer that there will be other structures / obstacles that get in the way of that. Can you build a house on another player? Probably not. Point being, one of the main problems with sandbox design comes from having to play with others. It's a massive double-edged sword. It can be great at times because of the freedom / customization, but it can be equally restrictive when that feature gets utilized by trolls & griefers. In real life such people (usually) get punished in some way or another, but in a game there is often very little accountability. Games have gotten to the point where hackers / cheaters / exploiters are tearing apart new games with lightning efficiency. The market's also so saturated that players can simply dump all their crap on one game, then move to the next.
In short, the type of sandbox most posters here seem to want, is going to be very tough in today's market. It's going to require a very solid community, built from players trying to make an active effort to stick with ONE game. It's also going to require that players take the initiative to police themselves to a large degree. What's more likely going to happen is an expansion of what's already started to happen. A merging of both themepark & sandbox design. Games that have a certain amount of developer-driven content, mixed into much more open-ended systems & mechanics. The developer-driven content will act as a hook for a lot of gamers, while the more sandbox-like designs will offer more longevity and replayability. But I know such a concept is taboo here.
Sandbox is the holy grail if it's done right.
However, you'll need lot's of themepark-stuff aswell to make it work.
"Sandbox" is a word which has got a lot in common with "God". It's seems to mean something different to each and every individual, and everyone seems to be convinced their definition is the only right one.
It's also common to believe it will save our world.
I'm not even sure the best of sandboxes (my definition, mind you) will attract all that many players. It takes a lot of effort to get into a deep complete world with no hand holding. It can be confusing for the first 100 hours or so. You will discover you made stupid choices back then, but there is no respeck. You live with your flaws too, it shapes who you are.
I don't know if it will ever be a success, but I am willing to take that risk! Bring it on
If you don't have these themepark-elements like quests, exploration, dungeins etc, then people get bored when there's no war to fight.
It's a lesson learned by playing seven years of EvE Online. In the beginning it was real bad, and then they introduced more and more themepark stuff like the mission, complexes and all that stuff. That's when the game actually started to really lift off.
Darkfall and Mortal Online are perfect examples that it doesn't work too well without themepark-stuff.
Yes, sandbox is the answer, it is what most smart gamers are looking for when they want a engaging experience with deep mechanics and lots of emergent gameplay.
And yes, i do believe that most devs are retarded cowards with no creative thinking whatsoever and that the people they work for are idiots that just want to copy the sucess of others. and that good games can only be born when those few devs and those few suits get together and make something, not because they only want money, but because they want to work on something they love.
I also believe that sandbox isnt for everyone, and that its good that the themepark genre exist for those that are content with following the carrot, especially if the carrot keeps throwing them small easy to catch carrots as to encourage them to grind the fuck out of the same content over and over again. I believe that most people know what they want and that the devs that say they dont are a bunch of ignorant losers that should actually think before they open their mouths to make excuses.
I don't want to play a pure sandbox MMO and I don't want to play a themepark.
Both are not what I'm looking for.
Well, the same can be said the for opposite when it comes to mmo's
The Themepark is hardly the holy grail either.
Now don't start spouting out numbers and percentages as proof.
McDonalds sells 'billions and billions' of burgers, but does that mean a McDonalds hamburger is the best possible burger you can get in this world?
My opinion is when it comes to mmos, sandboxes certainly work well. I think people should be given an open and vast completely open world. It should also be somewhat realistic. What I mean is it makes no sense to log into a world where a path can be taken to progressively harder and harder mobs that your avie can beat as long as he hits all the golden question marks floating over NPC heads for quests along the way so that you can advance in level. That is just plain stupid if you think about it. I mean it works well for themepark style level progression, but to me it certainly takes away from immersion.
- Zaxx
This actually a very well thought out post. It has every reason why sandbox will be the salvation of MMOs from themepark hell. The last good sandbox was SWG before the NGE ruined it in an attempt to turn it into a themepark. Logging into SWG every day led to new a experience.
There is huge pent up demand for a AAA fantasy sandbox. Many people have grown tired of being led around by the nose through linear game play. Tired of doing quest hubs that you never see again after you pass through them. Tired of pointless gear grinds just keep people on a treadmill. Tired of raiding the same boss every week. Tired of pointless battlegrounds style PvP. The sand box will solve all these issues and is exactly what people are searching for but can't find in modern themepark MMOs.
What i find funny is we had good sandbox games when MMOs first came out. then for some reason the market decided to go backwards and dumb everything down to linear gear grinds with zero death penalty, and quest hubs that you just run threw and never see that area of land again.
I went back to Asherons Call awhile back and man its so refreshing to play in a actual game world again.
Personal view point is i feel many people are falling for the grass is greener on the other side perspective.
They see so many theme parks and assume that if the game world has a lot more sandbox games then it will fix everything, which as the saying implies this may not be the case.
I feel if you get a lot of sandbox games you are going to get the same thing you are getting with theme parks. A lot of the same thing and ideas done over and over again, eventually resulting with people saying "another sandbox, this looks like a (insert first popular sandbox) clone, we need something different as this repetition of every other sandbox is causing the genre to die."
What i feel is you need, keep switching between sandbox/theme park/hybrid while inserting new ideas, not just fully switch to one and say there, that is the holy grail not just switching to another format that will follow the same pattern as the early themeparks did.
Variety is the spice of life, remember that.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.