Why is no one ever talking about the "wouldn't hit a girl" trope? Often applied even if the damsel is male, and the bad guy is actually a girl. Even if the girl is both clearly more experienced and starts the fight, many guys hold back because "i don't fight against women" etc. And if they do, they are often called out on it because "you don't hit girls".
Unless there is no other viable solution (like, when the girl is possessed by a demon, and you can either knock her out or outright kill her) it's rare for a guy to give a women the slap they (in the specific scene!) deserve. It's rare enough for women to do it.
Many anime take it even further, when even if the girl goes streaking in the men's shower it's the guy who is a pervert for seeing her, but that's another topic.
So it's not like women would only be the damsel, many are quite capable of handling everything that's thrown at them, and other's let people handle it for them by playing the damsel.
The conclusion is that most media has a long way to go regarding equality.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
saving the damsel in distress is something little boys loved to do in games and even playing with toys which is fine and all but kids and adults would probably take a story of saving the world from whatever villian is trying to take it over or destroy it.
reasons behind playing the game are more perspective then anything, hell i played video games when i got home from school and focused on it to release stress and take those angry urges out on the games those poor poor npc bastards ! lol.
i'm almost certain if there is no female characters in some games then the female gamers may get angry that there is no female roles at all in some games. personally i get abit tired of playing the guy sometimes and if i can i do choose female because its a nice change of pace lol.
i know this has nothing to do with video games but as for the next Star Wars movies i wanna see a female jedi kickin ass !
I don't see any problem at all, or at least any that could be harmful. Tropes like this is a reflection of our human history. When we live in a world where physical activities are dominated by women we'll see this trope reversed.
Originally posted by Four0Six Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Four0SixI find my Libertarian Mantra fits so many places:"Don't like it, Don't play it."Here again I hear this, "These games are sexist, yet I still LOOOOOOOVE to play them and think they are great.", inhale, "You game developers need to stop making these games I LOOOOOOVE and start to be more tolerant.".If you think something is wrong, you have NO right to speak against it, if you still engage in that something. Let alone cry out for the rest of society to change. Doing the "right" thing is often not the most enjoyable, comfortable, experience. If you want to change peoples behavior, you first need to change your own.
If you want to discuss video games, you have to play video games. To see the activities they are talking about, and to discuss them intelligently, playing the games is necessary to see everything in context. It's also entirely possible to play a game and see both good and bad things about the game, or video games in general. Discussing these things is important, if for no other reason than it's healthy to see things from different perspectives. I watched her first video in the series. She ends with comments about how much she likes these games, Mario and Zelda, but intones that Princess Toadstool, and Zelda should have games that focus on them as primary characters, almost as repayment for the prior sexism. That is a crap attitude. and I stand by my statements. She wasn't doing research while playing these games, she was playing them because she liked to. Now she wants us to feel bad, and sexist, and rail against developers until they bring equality to their games. If you want moral high ground you have to earn it with high morals. That means if you think a media is sexist, you don't engage in it. You think 50 cent downgrades women, and think it is wrong, you shouldn't buy his albums. Same applies to video games, magazines, movies, books, everything one does. As valid as her points may be, since sounds like a hypocrite when she claims, "You can still enjoy a media, while finding faults", shows little in the way of moral fortitude. It is a total "Do as I say, Not as I do" situation.
I'm trying to make sense of your stance on her videos. The whole idea of the videos is for her to play video games, and give commentary, which will hopefully spark some discussion. Are you saying she should find all the information she needs for her videos by not playing the video games? Is it that she's not protesting enough? Should she be angrier or something?
The point doesn't appear to be to get people to stop playing video games. The point seems to be that people should be more aware of what they're doing.
When Alan Wake's wife shows up for less than 10 minutes of game time, and in theory she's the primary motivation for Alan Wake, it means she's a stage prop, not a character. This is pretty much the exclusive domain of women in video games. Just think about it. You don't have to stop playing games. You don't even need to get angry. Just think about it. That's the point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by jonrd463 This all boils down to a control issue. The premise behind this kind of crap is "I personally feel that X is offensive, therefore no one should be allowed to do X"
I just laugh, shake my head, and go on a spiteful killing spree in whatever GTA game I have installed at the moment.
Do you even understand what's being said here? I'm pretty sure "therefore no one should be allowed to do X" did not happen.
I'm familiar with both Anna Sarkeesian's "research", and the type of moths her light attracts. They're pretty much cut from the same cloth. The argument she puts forth here is how regressive and demeaning to women the damsel in distress trope is. The implication is that it is somehow damaging and needs to go away.
Let's take my statement and fill in the blanks. "I personally feel that women portrayed in helpless roles in games is offensive, therefore developers should stop producing games with women in helpless roles." It's completely applicable because it is representative of the logical conclusion of this aspect of Sarkeesian's crusade. How about you just don't buy those games? Ultimately, the market decides what's produced. Like it or not, the market is male dominated. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is what it is.
Look at all the new games being put out by AAA developers, whether MMO or single player. A vast majority of them are shallow, hand holding crap, because that's what the market at large demands (much to the chagrin of most of us who visit MMORPG.com). Then Kickstarter came along and now the old niches are starting to form again. For example, lovers of old school single player RPGs are going to have a great next couple of years.
Rather than kickstart to fund a video series that's nothing more than a platform to spout off feminist tripe, she should have kickstarted a game that represents the antithesis of all these tropes she pontificates about. Who knows, it might even get tens of backers.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
The point doesn't appear to be to get people to stop playing video games. The point seems to be that people should be more aware of what they're doing.
But honestly, once aware of the problem (and someone is always going to be there make sure every game/r knows there is a problem to be aware of, we never fail to inform devs of negatives) what do you expect to happen next?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Scalpless I kind of like these videos, but sometimes she's so over the top. She just called beating up your girlfriend who got possessed by a demon "domestic violence". So what, we're only allowed to beat up possessed males now?
It's not that in a game the player had to punch their girlfriend in the face to free them from the demon, it's that in most games where a character gets possessed by a demon, it's become the case that the possessed is a girlfriend or wife, and they all must be punched in the face or killed in order to be freed. They're just a prop or a plot point.
I think you misunderstood my point. It's not that the "possessed girlfriend" trope isn't silly or lazy writing. It's that calling it "domestic violence" is wrong and overly dramatizing. Saving your girlfriend by beating up a demon that took her over isn't violence towards that girl, because you're beating up a demon.
Domestic violence is a hot topic, which is why she injected it into this video to give her arguments more weight, even though it has really little to do with the subject. That - and many other smaller instances of similar behavior - is what I dislike.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by lizardbonesThe point doesn't appear to be to get people to stop playing video games. The point seems to be that people should be more aware of what they're doing.
But honestly, once aware of the problem (and someone is always going to be there make sure every game/r knows there is a problem to be aware of, we never fail to inform devs of negatives) what do you expect to happen next?
Me? Nothing. It's enough to get people to think about something they haven't thought about before, or to notice something they haven't noticed before. I'd be happy if one or two people looked at games they've played and didn't really think about too much actually thought about those games and looked at them with a slightly different perspective.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by ScalplessI kind of like these videos, but sometimes she's so over the top. She just called beating up your girlfriend who got possessed by a demon "domestic violence". So what, we're only allowed to beat up possessed males now?
It's not that in a game the player had to punch their girlfriend in the face to free them from the demon, it's that in most games where a character gets possessed by a demon, it's become the case that the possessed is a girlfriend or wife, and they all must be punched in the face or killed in order to be freed. They're just a prop or a plot point.
I think you misunderstood my point. It's not that the "possessed girlfriend" trope isn't silly or lazy writing. It's that calling it "domestic violence" is wrong and overly dramatizing. Saving your girlfriend by beating up a demon that took her over isn't violence towards that girl, because you're beating up a demon.
Domestic violence is a hot topic, which is why she injected it into this video to give her arguments more weight, even though it has really little to do with the subject. That - and many other smaller instances of similar behavior - is what I dislike.
From your perspective that makes perfect sense. From the perspective of a person who's been the victim of domestic abuse, and the excuses used to justify it those games allow players to act out justified domestic abuse. I would add in people who help counsel those people as well to the pool of people who see these things as acting out justified domestic violence.
No, it's not really domestic abuse for more than just the context of the actions. It is after all a video game, not real life. The reasoning starts to break down a bit if we change the context a little. Instead of killing a grown woman, change the character to a child or a baby. Players wouldn't really be killing a baby or a child, and it wouldn't really be child abuse, but the actions would be much less acceptable, offensive even. The only difference is the number and type of people who would find that portrayal offensive.
** ** **
Saying it's domestic violence is hyperbole. Saying it's a portrayal of domestic violence depends on your perspective.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm familiar with both Anna Sarkeesian's "research", and the type of moths her light attracts. They're pretty much cut from the same cloth. The argument she puts forth here is how regressive and demeaning to women the damsel in distress trope is. The implication is that it is somehow damaging and needs to go away.
Let's take my statement and fill in the blanks. "I personally feel that women portrayed in helpless roles in games is offensive, therefore developers should stop producing games with women in helpless roles." It's completely applicable because it is representative of the logical conclusion of this aspect of Sarkeesian's crusade. How about you just don't buy those games? Ultimately, the market decides what's produced. Like it or not, the market is male dominated. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is what it is.
Look at all the new games being put out by AAA developers, whether MMO or single player. A vast majority of them are shallow, hand holding crap, because that's what the market at large demands (much to the chagrin of most of us who visit MMORPG.com). Then Kickstarter came along and now the old niches are starting to form again. For example, lovers of old school single player RPGs are going to have a great next couple of years.
Rather than kickstart to fund a video series that's nothing more than a platform to spout off feminist tripe, she should have kickstarted a game that represents the antithesis of all these tropes she pontificates about. Who knows, it might even get tens of backers.
When I watched the original link, I came away with a gut feeling about her and attitude. I had to watch it again and look at some of her other videos to build my opinion of her. She attempts to build a neutral commentary on topics but at the same time throws in a number of comments that are either untrue or a stretch of the imagination. In that particular link, she loves to use the word "insidious" and it ticked me off quite a bit. There is no problem of sexism in the constant use of those plots, but rather a complete lack of creativity on the writers part. She seems to want to create a problem where there is none to be had.
It was her "Evil Seductress Trope" video that was the finally straw for me, because she missed the biggest point of that plot, the seductress is almost always the villain. Apparently villains need to set good examples for us as well. The video was also an attempt to create a problem where there was none to be had.
When I watched the original link, I came away with a gut feeling about her and attitude. I had to watch it again and look at some of her other videos to build my opinion of her. She attempts to build a neutral commentary on topics but at the same time throws in a number of comments that are either untrue or a stretch of the imagination.
Heh, no offense and I'm not referring to you in any way.
But you just described a pretty typical forumite.
We do love our drama llamas and hyperbole, yes yes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The point doesn't appear to be to get people to stop playing video games. The point seems to be that people should be more aware of what they're doing.
But honestly, once aware of the problem (and someone is always going to be there make sure every game/r knows there is a problem to be aware of, we never fail to inform devs of negatives) what do you expect to happen next?
People will stop listening to Bonnie Tyler's - I Need a Hero song.
Comments
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Why is no one ever talking about the "wouldn't hit a girl" trope? Often applied even if the damsel is male, and the bad guy is actually a girl. Even if the girl is both clearly more experienced and starts the fight, many guys hold back because "i don't fight against women" etc. And if they do, they are often called out on it because "you don't hit girls".
Unless there is no other viable solution (like, when the girl is possessed by a demon, and you can either knock her out or outright kill her) it's rare for a guy to give a women the slap they (in the specific scene!) deserve. It's rare enough for women to do it.
Many anime take it even further, when even if the girl goes streaking in the men's shower it's the guy who is a pervert for seeing her, but that's another topic.
So it's not like women would only be the damsel, many are quite capable of handling everything that's thrown at them, and other's let people handle it for them by playing the damsel.
The conclusion is that most media has a long way to go regarding equality.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
saving the damsel in distress is something little boys loved to do in games and even playing with toys which is fine and all but kids and adults would probably take a story of saving the world from whatever villian is trying to take it over or destroy it.
reasons behind playing the game are more perspective then anything, hell i played video games when i got home from school and focused on it to release stress and take those angry urges out on the games those poor poor npc bastards ! lol.
i'm almost certain if there is no female characters in some games then the female gamers may get angry that there is no female roles at all in some games. personally i get abit tired of playing the guy sometimes and if i can i do choose female because its a nice change of pace lol.
i know this has nothing to do with video games but as for the next Star Wars movies i wanna see a female jedi kickin ass !
I watched her first video in the series. She ends with comments about how much she likes these games, Mario and Zelda, but intones that Princess Toadstool, and Zelda should have games that focus on them as primary characters, almost as repayment for the prior sexism. That is a crap attitude. and I stand by my statements. She wasn't doing research while playing these games, she was playing them because she liked to. Now she wants us to feel bad, and sexist, and rail against developers until they bring equality to their games. If you want moral high ground you have to earn it with high morals. That means if you think a media is sexist, you don't engage in it. You think 50 cent downgrades women, and think it is wrong, you shouldn't buy his albums. Same applies to video games, magazines, movies, books, everything one does. As valid as her points may be, since sounds like a hypocrite when she claims, "You can still enjoy a media, while finding faults", shows little in the way of moral fortitude. It is a total "Do as I say, Not as I do" situation.
I'm trying to make sense of your stance on her videos. The whole idea of the videos is for her to play video games, and give commentary, which will hopefully spark some discussion. Are you saying she should find all the information she needs for her videos by not playing the video games? Is it that she's not protesting enough? Should she be angrier or something?
The point doesn't appear to be to get people to stop playing video games. The point seems to be that people should be more aware of what they're doing.
When Alan Wake's wife shows up for less than 10 minutes of game time, and in theory she's the primary motivation for Alan Wake, it means she's a stage prop, not a character. This is pretty much the exclusive domain of women in video games. Just think about it. You don't have to stop playing games. You don't even need to get angry. Just think about it. That's the point.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm familiar with both Anna Sarkeesian's "research", and the type of moths her light attracts. They're pretty much cut from the same cloth. The argument she puts forth here is how regressive and demeaning to women the damsel in distress trope is. The implication is that it is somehow damaging and needs to go away.
Let's take my statement and fill in the blanks. "I personally feel that women portrayed in helpless roles in games is offensive, therefore developers should stop producing games with women in helpless roles." It's completely applicable because it is representative of the logical conclusion of this aspect of Sarkeesian's crusade. How about you just don't buy those games? Ultimately, the market decides what's produced. Like it or not, the market is male dominated. I'm not saying this is good or bad, but it is what it is.
Look at all the new games being put out by AAA developers, whether MMO or single player. A vast majority of them are shallow, hand holding crap, because that's what the market at large demands (much to the chagrin of most of us who visit MMORPG.com). Then Kickstarter came along and now the old niches are starting to form again. For example, lovers of old school single player RPGs are going to have a great next couple of years.
Rather than kickstart to fund a video series that's nothing more than a platform to spout off feminist tripe, she should have kickstarted a game that represents the antithesis of all these tropes she pontificates about. Who knows, it might even get tens of backers.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
But honestly, once aware of the problem (and someone is always going to be there make sure every game/r knows there is a problem to be aware of, we never fail to inform devs of negatives) what do you expect to happen next?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think you misunderstood my point. It's not that the "possessed girlfriend" trope isn't silly or lazy writing. It's that calling it "domestic violence" is wrong and overly dramatizing. Saving your girlfriend by beating up a demon that took her over isn't violence towards that girl, because you're beating up a demon.
Domestic violence is a hot topic, which is why she injected it into this video to give her arguments more weight, even though it has really little to do with the subject. That - and many other smaller instances of similar behavior - is what I dislike.
Me? Nothing. It's enough to get people to think about something they haven't thought about before, or to notice something they haven't noticed before. I'd be happy if one or two people looked at games they've played and didn't really think about too much actually thought about those games and looked at them with a slightly different perspective.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
From your perspective that makes perfect sense. From the perspective of a person who's been the victim of domestic abuse, and the excuses used to justify it those games allow players to act out justified domestic abuse. I would add in people who help counsel those people as well to the pool of people who see these things as acting out justified domestic violence.
No, it's not really domestic abuse for more than just the context of the actions. It is after all a video game, not real life. The reasoning starts to break down a bit if we change the context a little. Instead of killing a grown woman, change the character to a child or a baby. Players wouldn't really be killing a baby or a child, and it wouldn't really be child abuse, but the actions would be much less acceptable, offensive even. The only difference is the number and type of people who would find that portrayal offensive.
** ** **
Saying it's domestic violence is hyperbole. Saying it's a portrayal of domestic violence depends on your perspective.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
When I watched the original link, I came away with a gut feeling about her and attitude. I had to watch it again and look at some of her other videos to build my opinion of her. She attempts to build a neutral commentary on topics but at the same time throws in a number of comments that are either untrue or a stretch of the imagination. In that particular link, she loves to use the word "insidious" and it ticked me off quite a bit. There is no problem of sexism in the constant use of those plots, but rather a complete lack of creativity on the writers part. She seems to want to create a problem where there is none to be had.
It was her "Evil Seductress Trope" video that was the finally straw for me, because she missed the biggest point of that plot, the seductress is almost always the villain. Apparently villains need to set good examples for us as well. The video was also an attempt to create a problem where there was none to be had.
Heh, no offense and I'm not referring to you in any way.
But you just described a pretty typical forumite.
We do love our drama llamas and hyperbole, yes yes.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
People will stop listening to Bonnie Tyler's - I Need a Hero song.