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New bigger budget MMOs should launch with a subscription & not F2P/B2P.

Why should they?  Because MMOs that start with subscriptions get two launches.  One in which the MMO gets big box sales and subscription fees for months from hundreds of thousands of players.  And if they don't do as well, they switch to F2P and get a whole new set of players including returning players that played the game at launch.

Now let us look at the other side of the equation.  In a year or two, when Neverwinter and GW2 are pretty much dead.  What are they going to do to revitalize their population?  They really have limited options.  The remaining player base buys a "expansion", some new players get the expansion but it isn't the boom subscription to F2P games see.

Tera is one example out of many, that had more subscriptions after they went F2P than before they went F2P.

So isn't it idiotic for MMOs like WildStar and ESO to launch with F2P/B2P models?  When starting P2P then moving to F2P is a good model for games especially if they plan it right?

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Comments

  • DzoneDzone Member UncommonPosts: 371
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.
  • MadimorgaMadimorga Member UncommonPosts: 1,920
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

     

    Hope you get your dream game someday, I know I won't pay money for forced group and grind.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,537
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

     

    Hope you get your dream game someday, I know I won't pay money for forced group and grind.

    Odds are you won't pay for any game regardless how it's designed. 

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  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Transition from P2P to F2P doesn't have to be instantaneous, as is the case of Freemium (F2P with optional sub).  Also there's potential for even a third launch transitioning from Freemium to F2P, which might be a way to re-monetize if the Freemium model starts to fail.

     

    In this case, a game's timeline could look like:

     

    1. Box + sub + item shop + services (also lifetime subs, collectors editions, etc.)

    2. As above but + expansions

    3. Freemium (2nd) launch: Free client + sub (optional) + content unlocks + expansions + item shop + services

    4. Free to Play (3rd) launch:  Free client + item shop + services

     

    As I see it, any game with sufficient budget and marketing muscle might use this method for optimizing revenue because potential return of steps one and two are so great.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    Why should they?  Because MMOs that start with subscriptions get two launches.  One in which the MMO gets big box sales and subscription fees for months from hundreds of thousands of players.  And if they don't do as well, they switch to F2P and get a whole new set of players including returning players that played the game at launch.

    Now let us look at the other side of the equation.  In a year or two, when Neverwinter and GW2 are pretty much dead.  What are they going to do to revitalize their population?  They really have limited options.  The remaining player base buys a "expansion", some new players get the expansion but it isn't the boom subscription to F2P games see.

    Tera is one example out of many, that had more subscriptions after they went F2P than before they went F2P.

    So isn't it idiotic for MMOs like WildStar and ESO to launch with F2P/B2P models?  When starting P2P then moving to F2P is a good model for games especially if they plan it right?

    I am hoping that you are a marketing person for an MMO who is just going about a campaign all wrong, and not an actual MMO consumer suggesting this.

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  • AwDiddumsAwDiddums Member UncommonPosts: 416
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    Why should they?  Because MMOs that start with subscriptions get two launches.  One in which the MMO gets big box sales and subscription fees for months from hundreds of thousands of players.  And if they don't do as well, they switch to F2P and get a whole new set of players including returning players that played the game at launch.

    Now let us look at the other side of the equation.  In a year or two, when Neverwinter and GW2 are pretty much dead.  What are they going to do to revitalize their population?  They really have limited options.  The remaining player base buys a "expansion", some new players get the expansion but it isn't the boom subscription to F2P games see.

    Tera is one example out of many, that had more subscriptions after they went F2P than before they went F2P.

    So isn't it idiotic for MMOs like WildStar and ESO to launch with F2P/B2P models?  When starting P2P then moving to F2P is a good model for games especially if they plan it right?

    Now would this idea make ppl happy.

    You pay for the game as normal and then the devs walk away from it development wise, but they may squash the bugs over time with the odd patch and then move onto their next project.

    Now I'm sure that process is already widely used, ah ofc stand-alone games, but from all the harping on in these forums about F2P/B2P/P2P it would appear ppl tend to forget where this could all lead if they got their way, here's the game, it's bug ridden but we can't afford to work on it because we need the resources to create another new game to ensure we as a games designer are still here next year.

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

    I don't disagree but you'll never get a big budget game to do that. It would take too long to see a return on their investment. There just isn't enough people in the mmo market that will play an mmo that isn't the next big thing in games or ...even want a game like that in the first place.

     

    Sadly there is some merit in what the OP is saying. It does seem to "work " for the companies that have done it.

  • ro8terro8ter Member Posts: 23

    I think MMOs are in decline.  I would be surprised if there is another big budget MMO like STWOR or WoW even.   First person shooters make all the money and I think the money guys will fund FPS and not MMOs as much.

     

    So we'll see even more of what we're seeing now.

    The era of the MMO is coming to an end.  Until someone resurrects it anyways.

  • DominionlordDominionlord Member UncommonPosts: 180
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

    Vanguard? :) I never found myself trying to get to max lvl so i could experience the "fun stuff" "end game" or w/e.

  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,451
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

     

    Hope you get your dream game someday, I know I won't pay money for forced group and grind.

    At one point I think I would have agreed with you but not any more.  Maybe I've changed or gamers, not sure.  The average gamer in an MMO is someone I rarely want to group with. I prefer solo play for the most part nowadays and only group if I need to at end-game , or hopefully with people I know.  I often read about how back in the time of Everquest or UO people were friendly and helped one another and grouping was fun.  I even hear people would help you retrieve your corpse.  I cant imagine that happening today.  We get the games we deserve at this point. 

  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    I don't think this is in doubt.  Any company that thinks their product is quality enough or their fans naive enough that they can sell $60 boxes and $15/month subscriptions will.
  • GitmixGitmix Member UncommonPosts: 605
    Originally posted by ro8ter
    The era of the MMO is coming to an end.  Until someone resurrects it anyways.

    [mod edit] There's way more MMOs being released than others shutting down and this has been going on for years.

    The WoW (themepark clone) era is coming to an end, thank god, but that's about it.

    On topic, I'll just say this:

    Free to play MMOs are a paradise for hackers, cheaters, botters etc. After they get banned, all they need to do is create a new email adress, open a new account and voilà. There's no penalty for being banned other than loosing your toon really.

    In B2P and P2P, getting banned hurts, you need to buy the box again. In P2P it hurts even more cause your credit card gets banned along with your account.

    To most people this is a non issue but to me who enjoys open world PvP MMOs, it's a big one.

     

  • DaranarDaranar Member UncommonPosts: 390
    Originally posted by Dzone
    If they made group forced, slow leveling, and endless stuff to do, then we wouldn't need FTP. Oh and make um about the journey again, and not worry about end game intell like 6 months after its realeased. Thats how they should be made IMO.

    +1 +1 +1 +1 omg... +1.   I'm so tired of these short, burst through solo, MMOs.   I wonder if people even remember what MMO stands for.  I'm pretty sure "Multi-player" is in there somewhere, though playing these new-age MMOs, I wouldn't guess it.   When Diablo 3 and PoE are considered MMOs...you know something is wrong.   Funny how Diablo 3 sometimes gets considered an MMO when it is the same structure as Diablo 2, a very respectable 'single player game w/ online coop'.   

    If I want a world in which people can purchase success and power with cash, I'll play Real Life. Keep Virtual Worlds Virtual!


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,916
    Originally posted by ro8ter
    I would be surprised if there is another big budget MMO like STWOR or WoW even. 

     umm... ESO, Wildstar, EQ Next, Archeage, World of Darkness, Titan...just off the top of my head.

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  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

     

    They should not. Unless they do it like EvE(course I still won't play but at least the 15 makes a bit of sense).

     

    Otherwise P2P is bullshit. I hardly do F2P games, only B2P ones that are anti p2w and give out great content.

     

    Also to those lame ass statements of making a game worth pay to play, no the issue is time, replace 04 WoW with say Rift and we would all be wondering why WoW is going f2p next month.

     

    Damn freaking, just it's a shame. I would say it's common sense but then again MMORPG.com has the most pro p2p people who believe p2p somehow is the best spite not being needed for an great anti p2w MMORPG.

     

    Now once I start seeing how 15 dollar subs are indeed, needed, then I'll hold my tounges are needed. For one freaking video game? Why not 5 dollars or something.

     

    Lucky devs, chose p2p model first, if only they chose anti p2w b2p models first, just wonder how that'd be, swap the title of this thread that is for sure XD.

     

    Idk maybe if [insert any MMORPG that was p2p] started as B2P, it'd go up to p2p for a better gameplay experience lol.

     

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ro8ter

    I think MMOs are in decline.  I would be surprised if there is another big budget MMO like STWOR or WoW even.   First person shooters make all the money and I think the money guys will fund FPS and not MMOs as much.

     

    So we'll see even more of what we're seeing now.

    The era of the MMO is coming to an end.  Until someone resurrects it anyways.

    No. FPS is not the only big money makers.

    The era of traditional MMO is ending .. it is the era of innovative new online games that may have some MMO features.

    LoL is highly successful. Even Blizz and EA are getting into the MOBA business.

    ARPG is doing well. 3rd person shooters are doing well.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,974
    I'm pro f2p but I don't care how a game launches.  If they want to sub and box and box and sub that is fine by me.  Later they'll go f2p and I can wait or play something else.


  • sado2020sado2020 Member Posts: 112
    IGN has had a couple really good articles on MMO's and subscription models. In the end they had the same opinion Ive felt for a while, P2P, B2P, F2P, are all viable models and all three can coexist

    Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO

    image
  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773

    All I'm saying in a sense p2p is like xbox live and b2p is like sony(currently), and like some said sure than can coexist but I'm tired of the dumbass mentality that p2p means great game and anything else means terrible game.

    Cause to be real P2P just had great timing nothing more or nothing less, if B2P came out before P2P was a hit just reverse the title of this thread, which is a damn shame.

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    Actually the main reason why so many people spend more money in the first month playing a F2P is because in general you need the bag space.  You start off saddled with these tiny bags in most F2P games and the bags are expensiveish.  Hence in the first month you not only get the 2x the experience and loot package that any seriousish player pays in a F2P but a full set of cash shop packs to store loot in. 
  • sado2020sado2020 Member Posts: 112
    Originally posted by RizelStar

    All I'm saying in a sense p2p is like xbox live and b2p is like sony(currently), and like some said sure than can coexist but I'm tired of the dumbass mentality that p2p means great game and anything else means terrible game.

     

     I can definitely agree with that last comment.  I've been burned a lot by MMO's with a subscription, more so than the F2P games, aside from the current NW debacle.  Maybe things would have been different if these P2P games were more polished or didn't have all the hype attached to them but I guess we'll never know. People may say 8.3 million subscribers are still paying for WoW and that may be the one of the reasons people say P2P is the only way to go, but Im not one of them.

     

    Still, Wildstar and TESO look good and If theres a sub to them Ill probably pay for a couple months at the least. 

    Playing: TSW, D&D NW, Defiance (more the tv show than game >.> ) LotRO, DCUO

    image
  • ghstwolfghstwolf Member Posts: 386
    Originally posted by RizelStar

    Cause to be real P2P just had great timing nothing more or nothing less, if B2P came out before P2P was a hit just reverse the title of this thread, which is a damn shame.

    Sort of, P2P was necessary at the beginning.  Bandwidth alone has dropped a staggering amount, http://blog.streamingmedia.com/the_business_of_online_vi/2010/01/bandwidth-pricing-trends-cost-to-stream-a-movie-today-five-cents-cost-in-1998-270.html serves as a good reference (conveniently starting at 1998, or slightly after UO launched).   Video streaming is a great analog here, in 1998 youtube (F2P) wouldn't have been possible, and Netflix (strangely my B2P equivalent) would have cost hundreds of dollars a month.  Sure had MMOs delayed their arrival (~3yrs) B2P would have been possible if not more likely (Diablo 2 was the first server hosted game through battle.net).

    My twisted take on history aside, each model has it's virtues for players.  Part of the issue is the disconnect between those models and game itself by the company executive class.  They seem to see it in terms of budget, rather than in terms of matching the product.  I'm not saying throw out the financials, but instead use those financials to improve the game.  Spending habits can be used to regulate/manipulate behavior at least as well as carrot and stick methods.  Are larger guilds a plus in your game, why not charge for a monthly charter?  Are smaller guilds better, charge by cap. (BTW these can apply to any model.)  That is using monetization to manipulate the game into an "optimum" state.

  • XandramasXandramas Member Posts: 73
    pay to win aka free to play is causing the destruction of mmorpg gaming. You have devs who dont give a shit about their product and you have players who dont give a shit about the product. Makes for an overall shit experience.
  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    Why should they?  Because MMOs that start with subscriptions get two launches.  One in which the MMO gets big box sales and subscription fees for months from hundreds of thousands of players.  And if they don't do as well, they switch to F2P and get a whole new set of players including returning players that played the game at launch.

    Now let us look at the other side of the equation.  In a year or two, when Neverwinter and GW2 are pretty much dead.  What are they going to do to revitalize their population?  They really have limited options.  The remaining player base buys a "expansion", some new players get the expansion but it isn't the boom subscription to F2P games see.

    Tera is one example out of many, that had more subscriptions after they went F2P than before they went F2P.

    So isn't it idiotic for MMOs like WildStar and ESO to launch with F2P/B2P models?  When starting P2P then moving to F2P is a good model for games especially if they plan it right?

    I am hoping that you are a marketing person for an MMO who is just going about a campaign all wrong, and not an actual MMO consumer suggesting this.

     

    also, lets not forget that the launches are easier to handle when you have a pay-wall to weed out much of the initial launch crush.  & those who breach the wall are invested in the game, and so are more willing to put up with launch issues.

     

    this is actually the PLANNED strategy that nearly every (initially) P2P MMO has used in the last few years.

    thats one of the reasons people saying "f2p in x months" is so funny.   they act like its a death knell, when its actually pre-planned conscious designs based on standard traditional business strategies.

     

     

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    Corpus Callosum    

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  • MagnetiaMagnetia Member UncommonPosts: 1,015

    We need to set one thing straight here.

    Subscription =/= better quality.

    Good developers = better quality

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

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