Originally posted by CazNeerg The problem with the resource gathering portion of SWG's crafting system was that it relied on SWG's vast amounts of otherwise empty and pointless space. At least that portion of the system would have to be reworked in any game that tried to avoid the horrible mess that resulted from SWG areas being a mostly barren invitation to ugly urban sprawl.
I will agree there is somethings of resource gathering that need to be changed from SWG. There were days we had to move resource gathering structures a day or 2 after placing them because that resource was gone. However the system overall was good.
Originally posted by Malvious EQN should be exactly like SWG pre-NGE/CU just in the EQ universe
Whoa,..whoa,..slow down there,...there was plenty not to like in SWG too,..heh
Originally posted by danwest58
I played SWG and I had a tight nit group of 30 players. I will tell you this, with only being allowed to have 1 character per server (until you unlocked your force sensitive slot) all but 2 of us had a 2nd account that we created for crafting. Our first account was for killing and combat skills, the other was for crafting and most of the time everyone specialized in 1 or 2 items that we would craft. I for example made Rocket launchers which were for my Commando team who took down AT-ST s in a few seconds. The 2 friends who did not have a 2nd account for crafting, 1 was a combat medic that had all the crafting he needed on that account. The other just used his account to place different structures to gather resources for us cause he didnt like crafting. So what you think to be a small group of people that only like crafting its not as small as you think.
Right on... I specialized in Personal Shield Generators. Sold them by the crate. ProtonPete's Personal Shield Generators!
Yes,..you could NAME every item you crafted!
Even during a time where the forums said they are useless...waay back in the game,..I still made millions!
For real crafters, the people who play a crafter as their primary and only want to craft, then yes. Any game with SWGs crafting/resource system would be better.
For wimpy crafters, those simple minded people who cannot comprehend a deep system and who only want to "get ore+NPC coal=breastplate" then no. Those people furrow their brow and complain that they don't want to spend time crafting.
You need a deep resource system, a HUGE world to contain all that, some sort of item decay, and a looting system that works in tangent with the experimental crafting part.
It's a bit undertaking. Honestly, it is much more easier to place nodes and have WOW Crafting. But they said they are making EQ Next the biggest sandbox ever, so maybe their is hope.
EVE and Horizons also have excellent crafting systems. Vanguards is good, but it is closer to LOTRO than it is to SWG.
I do have 1 other Beef with SWG crafting. That is when I was leveling Weaponsmith I got so board just loading 12 crafting stations to level my crafting. I think they should rethink how they skill up crafting. I can remember spending countless outs leveling weaponsmith. I do think that there should be some automated way of setting up my character to make 100 weapon X to skill up without having to manually load each crafting station each time.
Originally posted by Malvious EQN should be exactly like SWG pre-NGE/CU just in the EQ universe
Whoa,..whoa,..slow down there,...there was plenty not to like in SWG too,..heh
Originally posted by danwest58
I played SWG and I had a tight nit group of 30 players. I will tell you this, with only being allowed to have 1 character per server (until you unlocked your force sensitive slot) all but 2 of us had a 2nd account that we created for crafting. Our first account was for killing and combat skills, the other was for crafting and most of the time everyone specialized in 1 or 2 items that we would craft. I for example made Rocket launchers which were for my Commando team who took down AT-ST s in a few seconds. The 2 friends who did not have a 2nd account for crafting, 1 was a combat medic that had all the crafting he needed on that account. The other just used his account to place different structures to gather resources for us cause he didnt like crafting. So what you think to be a small group of people that only like crafting its not as small as you think.
Right on... I specialized in Personal Shield Generators. Sold them by the crate. ProtonPete's Personal Shield Generators!
Yes,..you could NAME every item you crafted!
Even during a time where the forums said they are useless...waay back in the game,..I still made millions!
Those Entertainers in the Cantina were very happy
Thats what I did with my Rocket Launchers. I had 3 levels that I would name my RLs. One was for leveling that were really weak and did little damage, the medium one for the AT-ST on corellia and what not. Then the PVP RLs for attacking Imp bases that people with bring personal AT-ST out for. Yea thats what me and my Commando team went after.
I had a friend who would put 100 extractors on his vendor and within 2 days all sold. He made Millions off them.
There are 3 kinds of players that "make stuff" in MMO's:
1. Crafters - These players enjoy the actual process of crafting and selling their wares. It's often their prime activity in a game
2. Dabblers - These players do enjoy a bit of the crafting process, but it's something they do occasionally for fun.
3. Scrooge's - These players want the ability to craft all their gear, so that they can avoid having to buy anything from other players (and ideally NPC's as well). They actually HATE crafting, but they hate PAYING OTHERS far more. They want crafting to be as simple as possible so that it doesn't interfere with their gameplay at all. They are not interested in the crafting process, only in the benefits that it gives.
Unfortunately for us enthusiastic crafters, players from category 3 outnumber us 1000 to 1.
There are 3 kinds of players that "make stuff" in MMO's:
1. Crafters - These players enjoy the actual process of crafting and selling their wares. It's often their prime activity in a game
2. Dabblers - These players do enjoy a bit of the crafting process, but it's something they do occasionally for fun.
3. Scrooge's - These players want the ability to craft all their gear, so that they can avoid having to buy anything from other players (and ideally NPC's as well). They actually HATE crafting, but they hate PAYING OTHERS far more. They want crafting to be as simple as possible so that it doesn't interfere with their gameplay at all. They are not interested in the crafting process, only in the benefits that it gives.
Unfortunately for us enthusiastic crafters, players from category 3 outnumber us 1000 to 1.
You also can have the 4th type. The type that like crafting or a part of crafting and thats what they are scrooge's account. I am more of this type. I didnt like crafting enough in SWG or UO to do EVERYTHING however I did like it enough to pick 1 or 2 things I liked that I didnt want to pay someone else for
You also can have the 4th type. The type that like crafting or a part of crafting and thats what they are scrooge's account. I am more of this type. I didnt like crafting enough in SWG or UO to do EVERYTHING however I did like it enough to pick 1 or 2 things I liked that I didnt want to pay someone else for
I agree with the sentiment. I don't think any sphere(using Vanguard's term) should be able to do Everything,..and if so( ala EVE) make it deep enough to where it is almost a detriment, at least short term, to try to master them all.
MMO's have lost that cooperative aspect. True enough, too much interdependence is a bad thing too. The audience has evolved,..people don't have 8 hours a night to blow on one game. That's why I like the 'specialization' aspect, and it's up to the Dev's to make sure that playing solo won't gimp you from at least the solo content of the game.
The way EVE deals with resources is brilliant, imho. Even the lowliest of low Veldspar is a needed resource at high end. Which means the newbs can still contribute,..
it may of changed,..but I didn't like in eq2 that once you hit tier4 or whatever,.all of a sudden anything below that is obsolete.
now anyone above such and such would never need to harvest or buy those resources. The market would be much broader if they opened all that up.
Durability/Decay of items is a way to keep things moving economically, but I'd prefer some form of repair as well. Preferably something that requires a similar level of skill to repair the item, or perhaps it's not as good as it was. Possibly even capping the repaired item to the new level of the repairer. Making the decision of when and who to repair things an important consideration.
I did like seeing the names of makers on items, and getting to patronize a particular crafter.
One thing I liked about DAOC's crafting/gear system was repairs would always return an item to maximum functionality, but at a cost to its durability. A very well-crafted item would have a kind of invisible super durability, because the durability display was capped at 100%. Dropped and vendor-bought items started at 100% durability, so you saw the decrease as soon as they were repaired. Crafted items could go through multiple repair cycles before the wear became visible.
You need a deep resource system, a HUGE world to contain all that, some sort of item decay, and a looting system that works in tangent with the experimental crafting part.
I am less certain about adopting SWG's resource system. The randomly-generated stats produced some real gems but tons and tons of database-clogging dreck. It might work better with standard basic resources plus an expanded experiment system; the real difference between the apprentice and the master isn't so much the working material as what you can do with it. And an expanded system of looted or foraged or found components: additives, replacements, consumables that might give luck or temporary extra experiment points, etc.
Never played SWG, so I cna't comment on that crafting-system, but by far the best I've seen among the many games I've played has to be from Ryzom. Take the trial and try it out to see what I mean.
Resource finding, surveying, gathering etc was the best bits of SWG, but i see some difficulties adding such a feature into an Fantasy MMO, where there are no datapads, holo-surveyors, geo-scanners etc How would you implement such a complex feature with the tools from the fantasy setting? Moving around with a Y-shaped stick that blinks?
ps. Holy crap, my acc has turned 10yrs old few days ago, Hooray me!
Personally I think crafting would be better done by a separate company or division than done in-house as a part of the game. The reason is that crafting is such an important part of a game and tends to be marginalized in games. If it were the primary purpose of a division or company to put the best possible crafting experience into a game with no other responsibilities, things would be better.
Resource finding, surveying, gathering etc was the best bits of SWG, but i see some difficulties adding such a feature into an Fantasy MMO, where there are no datapads, holo-surveyors, geo-scanners etc How would you implement such a complex feature with the tools from the fantasy setting? Moving around with a Y-shaped stick that blinks?
ps. Holy crap, my acc has turned 10yrs old few days ago, Hooray me!
magic.
There is really no reason *not* to copy SWG's system. It worked wonderfully, and no one would complain that it was a cloned feature. In fact people would praise SoE left and right for being smart enough to do it. You cant play the original version officially anyway.
John Smedley replied to someone on twitter May 23rd with..
"if you liked SWG.. you'll like EQN x 100000000000""
This was a man that actually said SWG was too "sandboxy" as part of the justification for the NGE. Nothing the man says can be trusted, he is just creating hype in an attempt to stop SOE from going under (and SOE starting to float crappy Asian F2P imports should be a big hint).
What he actually said was this: I think when we made the game we went too far into the direction of a "sandbox" style of gameplay, when what we needed to do was balance that out with awesome Star Wars gameplay that gives the player the feeling of being heroic. JS - After the NGE
Since SWG was only a Sandbox/themepark hybrid to begin with, saying even THAT was too much of a sandbox does not bode well for people hoping for deep sandbox play with EQNext.
I don't think any MMO would try to emulate features of failure like SWG. Now if it was a success it would be another matter. There is a reason why so many MMO try to copy WOW and no one tries to copy SWG.
John Smedley replied to someone on twitter May 23rd with..
"if you liked SWG.. you'll like EQN x 100000000000""
This was a man that actually said SWG was too "sandboxy" as part of the justification for the NGE. Nothing the man says can be trusted, he is just creating hype in an attempt to stop SOE from going under (and SOE starting to float crappy Asian F2P imports should be a big hint).
What he actually said was this: I think when we made the game we went too far into the direction of a "sandbox" style of gameplay, when what we needed to do was balance that out with awesome Star Wars gameplay that gives the player the feeling of being heroic. JS - After the NGE
Since SWG was only a Sandbox/themepark hybrid to begin with, saying even THAT was too much of a sandbox does not bode well for people hoping for deep sandbox play with EQNext.
Source...? How long ago did he say this? People are allowed to change their minds.
Originally posted by Whitebeards I don't think any MMO would try to emulate features of failure like SWG. Now if it was a success it would be another matter. There is a reason why so many MMO try to copy WOW and no one tries to copy SWG.
It was a success.
One of only 5 western games to hold over 300k subs at some point beyond its launch year.
Imagine if Lucas Arts didnt force it out the door 6-12 months early?
I personally didnt play it too long because of its *very* unfinished nature, but lots did. the license obviously helped but if you polled a large population of MMORPG players SWG crafting would win top crafting system. And it wouldnt be close.
SWGs crafting was not "spreadsheet" crafting. It was pretty easy to understand, anybody could craft anything but to make high quality items you needed to put in an effort. It was like that commercial "A minute to learn a lifetime to master".
John Smedley replied to someone on twitter May 23rd with..
"if you liked SWG.. you'll like EQN x 100000000000""
This was a man that actually said SWG was too "sandboxy" as part of the justification for the NGE. Nothing the man says can be trusted, he is just creating hype in an attempt to stop SOE from going under (and SOE starting to float crappy Asian F2P imports should be a big hint).
What he actually said was this: I think when we made the game we went too far into the direction of a "sandbox" style of gameplay, when what we needed to do was balance that out with awesome Star Wars gameplay that gives the player the feeling of being heroic. JS - After the NGE
Since SWG was only a Sandbox/themepark hybrid to begin with, saying even THAT was too much of a sandbox does not bode well for people hoping for deep sandbox play with EQNext.
Source...? How long ago did he say this? People are allowed to change their minds.
He said it in Nov 2005, when they had just made the changes and were trying to compete with WoW.
You have to keep in mind the context for it, wondering why WoW got 5 million players its first year and a Star Wars game only got 300k. No one knew then that WoW would be a huge anomaly. Hes also not going to second guess the decision only a couple months into it.
Comments
I will agree there is somethings of resource gathering that need to be changed from SWG. There were days we had to move resource gathering structures a day or 2 after placing them because that resource was gone. However the system overall was good.
Whoa,..whoa,..slow down there,...there was plenty not to like in SWG too,..heh
Right on... I specialized in Personal Shield Generators. Sold them by the crate. ProtonPete's Personal Shield Generators!
Yes,..you could NAME every item you crafted!
Even during a time where the forums said they are useless...waay back in the game,..I still made millions!
Those Entertainers in the Cantina were very happy
I do have 1 other Beef with SWG crafting. That is when I was leveling Weaponsmith I got so board just loading 12 crafting stations to level my crafting. I think they should rethink how they skill up crafting. I can remember spending countless outs leveling weaponsmith. I do think that there should be some automated way of setting up my character to make 100 weapon X to skill up without having to manually load each crafting station each time.
Thats what I did with my Rocket Launchers. I had 3 levels that I would name my RLs. One was for leveling that were really weak and did little damage, the medium one for the AT-ST on corellia and what not. Then the PVP RLs for attacking Imp bases that people with bring personal AT-ST out for. Yea thats what me and my Commando team went after.
I had a friend who would put 100 extractors on his vendor and within 2 days all sold. He made Millions off them.
There are 3 kinds of players that "make stuff" in MMO's:
1. Crafters - These players enjoy the actual process of crafting and selling their wares. It's often their prime activity in a game
2. Dabblers - These players do enjoy a bit of the crafting process, but it's something they do occasionally for fun.
3. Scrooge's - These players want the ability to craft all their gear, so that they can avoid having to buy anything from other players (and ideally NPC's as well). They actually HATE crafting, but they hate PAYING OTHERS far more. They want crafting to be as simple as possible so that it doesn't interfere with their gameplay at all. They are not interested in the crafting process, only in the benefits that it gives.
Unfortunately for us enthusiastic crafters, players from category 3 outnumber us 1000 to 1.
You also can have the 4th type. The type that like crafting or a part of crafting and thats what they are scrooge's account. I am more of this type. I didnt like crafting enough in SWG or UO to do EVERYTHING however I did like it enough to pick 1 or 2 things I liked that I didnt want to pay someone else for
I agree with the sentiment. I don't think any sphere(using Vanguard's term) should be able to do Everything,..and if so( ala EVE) make it deep enough to where it is almost a detriment, at least short term, to try to master them all.
MMO's have lost that cooperative aspect. True enough, too much interdependence is a bad thing too. The audience has evolved,..people don't have 8 hours a night to blow on one game. That's why I like the 'specialization' aspect, and it's up to the Dev's to make sure that playing solo won't gimp you from at least the solo content of the game.
The way EVE deals with resources is brilliant, imho. Even the lowliest of low Veldspar is a needed resource at high end. Which means the newbs can still contribute,..
it may of changed,..but I didn't like in eq2 that once you hit tier4 or whatever,.all of a sudden anything below that is obsolete.
now anyone above such and such would never need to harvest or buy those resources. The market would be much broader if they opened all that up.
One thing I liked about DAOC's crafting/gear system was repairs would always return an item to maximum functionality, but at a cost to its durability. A very well-crafted item would have a kind of invisible super durability, because the durability display was capped at 100%. Dropped and vendor-bought items started at 100% durability, so you saw the decrease as soon as they were repaired. Crafted items could go through multiple repair cycles before the wear became visible.
I am less certain about adopting SWG's resource system. The randomly-generated stats produced some real gems but tons and tons of database-clogging dreck. It might work better with standard basic resources plus an expanded experiment system; the real difference between the apprentice and the master isn't so much the working material as what you can do with it. And an expanded system of looted or foraged or found components: additives, replacements, consumables that might give luck or temporary extra experiment points, etc.
Resource finding, surveying, gathering etc was the best bits of SWG, but i see some difficulties adding such a feature into an Fantasy MMO, where there are no datapads, holo-surveyors, geo-scanners etc
How would you implement such a complex feature with the tools from the fantasy setting? Moving around with a Y-shaped stick that blinks? 
ps. Holy crap, my acc has turned 10yrs old few days ago, Hooray me!
Did anyone notice this tweet by Smedley??
John Smedley replied to someone on twitter May 23rd with..
"if you liked SWG.. you'll like EQN x 100000000000""
magic.
There is really no reason *not* to copy SWG's system. It worked wonderfully, and no one would complain that it was a cloned feature. In fact people would praise SoE left and right for being smart enough to do it. You cant play the original version officially anyway.
This was a man that actually said SWG was too "sandboxy" as part of the justification for the NGE. Nothing the man says can be trusted, he is just creating hype in an attempt to stop SOE from going under (and SOE starting to float crappy Asian F2P imports should be a big hint).
What he actually said was this: I think when we made the game we went too far into the direction of a "sandbox" style of gameplay, when what we needed to do was balance that out with awesome Star Wars gameplay that gives the player the feeling of being heroic. JS - After the NGE
Since SWG was only a Sandbox/themepark hybrid to begin with, saying even THAT was too much of a sandbox does not bode well for people hoping for deep sandbox play with EQNext.
But swg crafting would be good too.
Source...? How long ago did he say this? People are allowed to change their minds.
It was a success.
One of only 5 western games to hold over 300k subs at some point beyond its launch year.
Imagine if Lucas Arts didnt force it out the door 6-12 months early?
I personally didnt play it too long because of its *very* unfinished nature, but lots did. the license obviously helped but if you polled a large population of MMORPG players SWG crafting would win top crafting system. And it wouldnt be close.
He said it in Nov 2005, when they had just made the changes and were trying to compete with WoW.
You have to keep in mind the context for it, wondering why WoW got 5 million players its first year and a Star Wars game only got 300k. No one knew then that WoW would be a huge anomaly. Hes also not going to second guess the decision only a couple months into it.
I got news for ya bud, your beloved combat is nothing but spreadsheet combat also. Think about it!
Great argument by the way. Crafting was in SWG and that game failed. Therefore crafting will result in a failed game!
Brilliant!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!