I am confused now, care to clarify? One cannot be "winning" based entirely on only part of a metric. That is like declaring yourself a winner even though you did not even complete a race entirely because you participated in one degree or another.
In marketing its very common to redefine negatively charged words into something more neutral , repeat that definition over and over so that people will find it more acceptable.
P2W used to be about paying money to give you unfair advantages and therefore you had to use the cash shop to be competitive. The redefinition is that its only P2W when something can only be obtained through the cash shop.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
So many people trying to explain their thoughts with examples and analogies. It's rare that one will ever convince someone of anything that they don't believe is true on the forums (but why not try, eh?).
I could see paying for something as being a sort of "cheating", like in the days of Game Genie whereby you bought the ability to hack your games. But one would be hard pressed to convinced me advancing faster is in fact paying to win. That is, unless it comes with an "I Win" button that makes it so you instant win all PvP fights.
Personally I'm against outright buying of items, but all that's occurring if someone buys what I earned is that they're "cheating the system" or advancing farther. We're still on equal footing in terms of equipment, though I am much more likely to beat him due to experience (especially if the game is reliant on skill). The fact of the matter is (as a term of expression), the selling of accounts has been in the MMO genre since Ultima Online (as an example), and nobody that I knew called such a thing "pay to win" back then. It was just people some would look down on for paying tens of thousands of dollars to get an account they themselves could make in a matter of months. You could say they didn't earn it, for sure. They would also likely get PK'd and looted in a matter of moments as they tried to figure out the intricacies of meta PvP.
No, the whole "pay to win" thing only really started with Asian F2P games that hit the market decades ago whereby grinding was absolutely necessary and items that were available no where else were being sold. We as a community really only started to hate it as MMOs became more mainstray, as it was a small genre back then that had it's problems and needed ways to fund itself. To attract more people, things such as companies going against RMT or against account selling started to become a thing. FFXI had it with their special force against real money trading, and WoW even started going against it after a while as well.
Back then people used the excuse "I don't want some rich guy to be able to get what I do through work" or some such. Though honestly, the rich will always have this capacity in any and every online game. They will find way, believe me. I've wrote of one of my friends who hired someone to play on his computers, his 40 WoW accounts, and multibox 20,000 gold a day from daily quests in WoW. He also bought guild runs whereby they just pass the item to him on heroic raids. Then we have people who simply went afk in battlegrounds -- who did no work -- and obtained the best items there.
It's only when mainstream games started to sanction time savers or get into this whole "work less and get more, so stay with us" mentality that people really started to feel the hatred(?) of things being "unfair", and things such as boosters or random chance became taboo to people seeking to eliminate an evolved manifestation of their hatred. Where the whole hatred of finding new ways for developers to make their money -- to infiltrate a popular system of saving time that most MMO gamers want nowadays -- and produce games based on this or with it as a side.
Is it "pay to win"? Sadly, there is no real definition of that anymore. It's full of contrivances and opinions, and then subjugated to technicalities and facts that also must be considered; also, one has to look at the changing times and the evolution of technology and the average MMO player mindset. The only thing most can agree with is "If a game have something that is more powerful than anything else, and it's only located in the shop -- THAT'S P2W!". But I can't help to think that a lot of passion is being put here, and little reason; the hatred of something clouding the judgment of many -- even provoking certain individuals to say something along the lines of others being "stupid/ignorant" if they don't believe something -- when it comes to thinking about it logically and assessing the market for what it is and these things for what they are.
What we should agree on is that many people disagree. Yes, that sounds too easy, simplistic and probably is a "no duh, but welcome to the real world" kind of argument. But in that I mean, some view it as okay and some do not. We've no right to say other wise, or call the other side names. In addition, we can't just make baseless assumptions stating certain people are "cheap" or others are "foolish" for not paying, or paying a monthly fee. I'm not all too fond of F2P games myself -- I'm more a B2P guy nowadays -- simply because I've spent upwards of twenty thousand dollars "renting" games in the past sixteen years with regards this genre. Almost five grand just on World of Warcraft, a game I no longer have access to despite paying all that money. I would love P2P again if I could just access my characters and the game I paid for in some way, even if it was offline with maybe lan capabilities or some such. But that's me, and some no longer play simply because there is a lot of competition that's cheaper that provide them just as much entertainment.
There is no "wool over the eyes" from what I can see. People know full well what they're getting into. People have their reasons to play or not play. We've been trained by companies to think certain ways, yes, but the responsible player knows what they're doing. I'd say that a lot of the hate is from players knowing the general direction the genre is going; the inevitable direction that they can't stop. Indeed, with the next generation consoles we'll even see MMO like games. Games that are single player focused, but with the ability to have hundreds of players playing in online modes. Sound familiar to what we've been getting lately? But I digress...
It's my own belief that "pay to advance" and "pay to win" are inherently different. It doesn't mean they both don't suck for some people. It doesn't mean they they can use both as a reason to boycott a game. But I just don't see a real connection there other than it sucking to miss out on a game whereby you are one of the few left potentially fighting for your own beliefs and morals.
So let's just keep a "stiff upper lip" and watch the horizon. We may be pleasantly surprised with a future payment model and a new direction that a MMO will take to differentiate itself from what will likely soon become the norm in casual general gaming.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Many on here have said that as long as you can obtain it in the game, buying it in the cash shop is not bad for the game. It simply gives those who don't have the time to "grind it out" get on equal footing as those who do and it doesn't hurt the game. That is where you are wrong. In most of the mmo's I have played the only way to get the epics without buying them is grind them out in dungeons and other ways that take a group of players. By putting it in the cash shop:
You take away the amount of players who are available to group with for those epic dungeon runs for that gear since they already bought it.
You remove some of the social aspect of the game (see the point above)
In the long run it only hurts the games longevity. Without reasons to stay in the game at the end your going to find people leaving since they can bypass the time requirement for some cash and get bored with the game much faster. Those who can't afford to pay their way to the top, get frustrated since they can't find anyone to group with so they can get on that equal footing and quit. It isn't long after, that you start seeing empty servers.
In summary, to say that putting the means to get epics or even get to the end game faster in the CS doesn't hurt game is incorrect.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I am confused now, care to clarify? One cannot be "winning" based entirely on only part of a metric. That is like declaring yourself a winner even though you did not even complete a race entirely because you participated in one degree or another.
I don't see what has you confused in all honesty. It seems simple to me... Yes, character development is a measure of how well you are doing in a MMORPG. You buy any part of that from a cash shop and you are, in my eyes, paying to 'win'.
You cannot see that MMORPGs are a series of micro 'wins'?
And, no, it's nothing like your example here at all.
Many on here have said that as long as you can obtain it in the game, buying it in the cash shop is not bad for the game. It simply gives those who don't have the time to "grind it out" get on equal footing as those who do and it doesn't hurt the game. That is where you are wrong. In most of the mmo's I have played the only way to get the epics without buying them is grind them out in dungeons and other ways that take a group of players. By putting it in the cash shop:
You take away the amount of players who are available to group with for those epic dungeon runs for that gear since they already bought it.
You remove some of the social aspect of the game (see the point above)
In the long run it only hurts the games longevity. Without reasons to stay in the game at the end your going to find people leaving since they can bypass the time requirement for some cash and get bored with the game much faster. Those who can't afford to pay their way to the top, get frustrated since they can't find anyone to group with so they can get on that equal footing and quit. It isn't long after, that you start seeing empty servers.
In summary, to say that putting the means to get epics or even get to the end game faster in the CS doesn't hurt game is incorrect.
In the short term you didn't even read what people said correctly, in the long term we said putting items to shortcut to end game in the cash shop is ok as long as you can also trade them to other players, those items were never specified as being the ones from dungeons or raids or whatever, you just assumed they were, from here onward your logic train falls apart because if the items in the cash shop are not the same as the ones you obtain in-game (even if they're just better looking without being better in any way) then you have options, some people will buy their way there but if the game is good and the grind is actually fun then there will never be a shortage of people to be social with and do epic dungeons with. Some people will always opt to pay with time rather than cash because they don't have much cash to spare (example: teens, students, young adults, you know 60-80% of the gaming population as a whole).
Originally posted by jpaprocki That is where you are wrong. In most of the mmo's I have played the only way to get the epics without buying them is grind them out in dungeons and other ways that take a group of players. By putting it in the cash shop: You take away the amount of players who are available to group with for those epic dungeon runs for that gear since they already bought it. You remove some of the social aspect of the game (see the point above)
Except none of this apply since players you talk about have no time for this in the first place as you pointed out in first part of your post and somehow forgot...
Removing alternate ways to gain gear/lvls w/e only removes the players using those ways.
So at the end, it is what you are suggesting would be hurting the game - causing empty servers.
That is where you are wrong. In most of the mmo's I have played the only way to get the epics without buying them is grind them out in dungeons and other ways that take a group of players. By putting it in the cash shop:
You take away the amount of players who are available to group with for those epic dungeon runs for that gear since they already bought it. You remove some of the social aspect of the game (see the point above)
Except none of this apply since players you talk about have no time for this in the first place as you pointed out in first part of your post and somehow forgot...
Removing alternate ways to gain gear/lvls w/e only removes the players using those ways.
So at the end, it is what you are suggesting would be hurting the game - causing empty servers.
And the argument against this is time and/or skill should be currency of game progression not real life cash. If you don't have time/skill you should be behind.
If you don't have time/skill you should be behind.
Says who?
Seems like you are delusioning yourself that games are made for YOU exclusively. Sorry but they are not, they are made to suit the most.
Huh? That is pretty much how 99% of MMOs are designed. It isn't just "me". I don't see how this simple concept is hard to understand. If I don't have time I am behind not only in levels but in gear progression.
"I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win". When did this become the definition become the norm?"
It has slowly crept in as MMO's with cash shops (this is not just a F2P issue) have looked for ways to expand their revenue. Fans of a game like this will make excuses. You see this particularly when a game is coming up to launch and questions are made about the P2W elements in the game.
Being able to grind away your fingers to the bone is the excuse they use to justify selling anything and everything.
The trouble is that each new wave of gamers do not care. They did not care about the loss roleplaying, they did not care about the loss of hardcore elements, they did not care about the loss of housing, the meaningless of crafting, the loss of raids and now they do not care about P2W. Of course they will be other things that will be lost in the future, the idea we have reached this point and it will go no further is shown a lie by the history of MMO's so far.
Each new wave of gamers had different priorities to the last. They were chased by the industry and now those being chased do not even all call themselves "gamers". They are social media types who are used to paying for small items, making this the perfect time to bring P2W into MMO's.
The new "pay-to-win" is "pay-to-win-RIGHT-NOW". Some companies really push it and the work in game to get on the same level as the whales can take months. So yeah, you don't have to pay. But the whales are going to rip your arms off and beat you with them until you get there. And usually by that time some update has come out and the whales have moved up the power grid even further. So yeah. I obviously wasn't a fan of pay to win and I'm not a fan of pay to win right now.
If that was true, there would be no MMOs since dev companies would go bankrupt long ago.
If you want successful product, everyone needs to win. People always pay for win, in a way or another. No one is gonna pay for being a loser.
The concept of "win" is foreign to you, apparently.
Winning implies that someone finishes first, or best. Basic game theory, in fact.
It's only New Age T-ball that allows every child to get a hit in every at-bat.
Despite this drawback, (having some who win and some who lose),baseball hasn't 'gone bankrupt' (as you surmise that it must) in the last two hundred years. Lot's o' folks indulge in lots of competitions of various natures, and despite losing sometimes--many pay to do so.
-sighs- shame my halfling great weapon master (yeah that's a thing apparently) in NWO won't have someone else to chase around in pvp .
Nice to see people not go with the standard choices. You can chase my half-orc Cleric around.
aswell as dwarf female guardian fighter. but im with OP on this and say, if you can buy gems or whatever that i can thgen used to change them to ingame gear is pay to win. simply cause i then PAY 2 WIN the game wich i otherwise needs to PLAY 2 WIN. so simple.
Considering your own rant thread, apparently they are not.
If I don't put time in my character in almost any MMO in the market I am behind. Be it Eve or Neverwinter, I will be behind in progression or levels. At this point you can't buy max level characters in MMOs. However, once you get to max level you can get the best gear in the game in a lot of recent F2P/B2P MMOs.
Comments
I am confused now, care to clarify? One cannot be "winning" based entirely on only part of a metric. That is like declaring yourself a winner even though you did not even complete a race entirely because you participated in one degree or another.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Note the "ourselves"--generally directed, not specific, comment. Turn down paranoia a couple notches.
In marketing its very common to redefine negatively charged words into something more neutral , repeat that definition over and over so that people will find it more acceptable.
P2W used to be about paying money to give you unfair advantages and therefore you had to use the cash shop to be competitive. The redefinition is that its only P2W when something can only be obtained through the cash shop.
So many people trying to explain their thoughts with examples and analogies. It's rare that one will ever convince someone of anything that they don't believe is true on the forums (but why not try, eh?).
I could see paying for something as being a sort of "cheating", like in the days of Game Genie whereby you bought the ability to hack your games. But one would be hard pressed to convinced me advancing faster is in fact paying to win. That is, unless it comes with an "I Win" button that makes it so you instant win all PvP fights.
Personally I'm against outright buying of items, but all that's occurring if someone buys what I earned is that they're "cheating the system" or advancing farther. We're still on equal footing in terms of equipment, though I am much more likely to beat him due to experience (especially if the game is reliant on skill). The fact of the matter is (as a term of expression), the selling of accounts has been in the MMO genre since Ultima Online (as an example), and nobody that I knew called such a thing "pay to win" back then. It was just people some would look down on for paying tens of thousands of dollars to get an account they themselves could make in a matter of months. You could say they didn't earn it, for sure. They would also likely get PK'd and looted in a matter of moments as they tried to figure out the intricacies of meta PvP.
No, the whole "pay to win" thing only really started with Asian F2P games that hit the market decades ago whereby grinding was absolutely necessary and items that were available no where else were being sold. We as a community really only started to hate it as MMOs became more mainstray, as it was a small genre back then that had it's problems and needed ways to fund itself. To attract more people, things such as companies going against RMT or against account selling started to become a thing. FFXI had it with their special force against real money trading, and WoW even started going against it after a while as well.
Back then people used the excuse "I don't want some rich guy to be able to get what I do through work" or some such. Though honestly, the rich will always have this capacity in any and every online game. They will find way, believe me. I've wrote of one of my friends who hired someone to play on his computers, his 40 WoW accounts, and multibox 20,000 gold a day from daily quests in WoW. He also bought guild runs whereby they just pass the item to him on heroic raids. Then we have people who simply went afk in battlegrounds -- who did no work -- and obtained the best items there.
It's only when mainstream games started to sanction time savers or get into this whole "work less and get more, so stay with us" mentality that people really started to feel the hatred(?) of things being "unfair", and things such as boosters or random chance became taboo to people seeking to eliminate an evolved manifestation of their hatred. Where the whole hatred of finding new ways for developers to make their money -- to infiltrate a popular system of saving time that most MMO gamers want nowadays -- and produce games based on this or with it as a side.
Is it "pay to win"? Sadly, there is no real definition of that anymore. It's full of contrivances and opinions, and then subjugated to technicalities and facts that also must be considered; also, one has to look at the changing times and the evolution of technology and the average MMO player mindset. The only thing most can agree with is "If a game have something that is more powerful than anything else, and it's only located in the shop -- THAT'S P2W!". But I can't help to think that a lot of passion is being put here, and little reason; the hatred of something clouding the judgment of many -- even provoking certain individuals to say something along the lines of others being "stupid/ignorant" if they don't believe something -- when it comes to thinking about it logically and assessing the market for what it is and these things for what they are.
What we should agree on is that many people disagree. Yes, that sounds too easy, simplistic and probably is a "no duh, but welcome to the real world" kind of argument. But in that I mean, some view it as okay and some do not. We've no right to say other wise, or call the other side names. In addition, we can't just make baseless assumptions stating certain people are "cheap" or others are "foolish" for not paying, or paying a monthly fee. I'm not all too fond of F2P games myself -- I'm more a B2P guy nowadays -- simply because I've spent upwards of twenty thousand dollars "renting" games in the past sixteen years with regards this genre. Almost five grand just on World of Warcraft, a game I no longer have access to despite paying all that money. I would love P2P again if I could just access my characters and the game I paid for in some way, even if it was offline with maybe lan capabilities or some such. But that's me, and some no longer play simply because there is a lot of competition that's cheaper that provide them just as much entertainment.
There is no "wool over the eyes" from what I can see. People know full well what they're getting into. People have their reasons to play or not play. We've been trained by companies to think certain ways, yes, but the responsible player knows what they're doing. I'd say that a lot of the hate is from players knowing the general direction the genre is going; the inevitable direction that they can't stop. Indeed, with the next generation consoles we'll even see MMO like games. Games that are single player focused, but with the ability to have hundreds of players playing in online modes. Sound familiar to what we've been getting lately? But I digress...
It's my own belief that "pay to advance" and "pay to win" are inherently different. It doesn't mean they both don't suck for some people. It doesn't mean they they can use both as a reason to boycott a game. But I just don't see a real connection there other than it sucking to miss out on a game whereby you are one of the few left potentially fighting for your own beliefs and morals.
So let's just keep a "stiff upper lip" and watch the horizon. We may be pleasantly surprised with a future payment model and a new direction that a MMO will take to differentiate itself from what will likely soon become the norm in casual general gaming.
Uh, you quoted him. The "paranoia" is warranted.
Many on here have said that as long as you can obtain it in the game, buying it in the cash shop is not bad for the game. It simply gives those who don't have the time to "grind it out" get on equal footing as those who do and it doesn't hurt the game. That is where you are wrong. In most of the mmo's I have played the only way to get the epics without buying them is grind them out in dungeons and other ways that take a group of players. By putting it in the cash shop:
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I don't see what has you confused in all honesty. It seems simple to me... Yes, character development is a measure of how well you are doing in a MMORPG. You buy any part of that from a cash shop and you are, in my eyes, paying to 'win'.
You cannot see that MMORPGs are a series of micro 'wins'?
And, no, it's nothing like your example here at all.
Indeed. This is why I said to him, when he quoted me specifically, 'IF this was pointed at me'.
Seems some folks just like trying to insult others to get a reaction. ahh well, no matter.
In the short term you didn't even read what people said correctly, in the long term we said putting items to shortcut to end game in the cash shop is ok as long as you can also trade them to other players, those items were never specified as being the ones from dungeons or raids or whatever, you just assumed they were, from here onward your logic train falls apart because if the items in the cash shop are not the same as the ones you obtain in-game (even if they're just better looking without being better in any way) then you have options, some people will buy their way there but if the game is good and the grind is actually fun then there will never be a shortage of people to be social with and do epic dungeons with. Some people will always opt to pay with time rather than cash because they don't have much cash to spare (example: teens, students, young adults, you know 60-80% of the gaming population as a whole).
/headdesk
PAth Of Exile is a prime example of what pay to win isn't ,
all the items you get are for making the game look better .
Except none of this apply since players you talk about have no time for this in the first place as you pointed out in first part of your post and somehow forgot...
Removing alternate ways to gain gear/lvls w/e only removes the players using those ways.
So at the end, it is what you are suggesting would be hurting the game - causing empty servers.
?????
I dislike anything that goes beyond cosmetic, that includes even xp potions.
And the argument against this is time and/or skill should be currency of game progression not real life cash. If you don't have time/skill you should be behind.
Says who?
Seems like you are delusioning yourself that games are made for YOU exclusively. Sorry but they are not, they are made to suit the most.
A couple of generations of mmo developers, and some unknown x number of players?
Huh? That is pretty much how 99% of MMOs are designed. It isn't just "me". I don't see how this simple concept is hard to understand. If I don't have time I am behind not only in levels but in gear progression.
"I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win". When did this become the definition become the norm?"
It has slowly crept in as MMO's with cash shops (this is not just a F2P issue) have looked for ways to expand their revenue. Fans of a game like this will make excuses. You see this particularly when a game is coming up to launch and questions are made about the P2W elements in the game.
Being able to grind away your fingers to the bone is the excuse they use to justify selling anything and everything.
The trouble is that each new wave of gamers do not care. They did not care about the loss roleplaying, they did not care about the loss of hardcore elements, they did not care about the loss of housing, the meaningless of crafting, the loss of raids and now they do not care about P2W. Of course they will be other things that will be lost in the future, the idea we have reached this point and it will go no further is shown a lie by the history of MMO's so far.
Each new wave of gamers had different priorities to the last. They were chased by the industry and now those being chased do not even all call themselves "gamers". They are social media types who are used to paying for small items, making this the perfect time to bring P2W into MMO's.
If that was true, there would be no MMOs since dev companies would go bankrupt long ago.
If you want successful product, everyone needs to win. People always pay for win, in a way or another. No one is gonna pay for being a loser.
The new "pay-to-win" is "pay-to-win-RIGHT-NOW". Some companies really push it and the work in game to get on the same level as the whales can take months. So yeah, you don't have to pay. But the whales are going to rip your arms off and beat you with them until you get there. And usually by that time some update has come out and the whales have moved up the power grid even further. So yeah. I obviously wasn't a fan of pay to win and I'm not a fan of pay to win right now.
Considering your own rant thread, apparently they are not.
The concept of "win" is foreign to you, apparently.
Winning implies that someone finishes first, or best. Basic game theory, in fact.
It's only New Age T-ball that allows every child to get a hit in every at-bat.
Despite this drawback, (having some who win and some who lose),baseball hasn't 'gone bankrupt' (as you surmise that it must) in the last two hundred years. Lot's o' folks indulge in lots of competitions of various natures, and despite losing sometimes--many pay to do so.
aswell as dwarf female guardian fighter. but im with OP on this and say, if you can buy gems or whatever that i can thgen used to change them to ingame gear is pay to win. simply cause i then PAY 2 WIN the game wich i otherwise needs to PLAY 2 WIN. so simple.
If I don't put time in my character in almost any MMO in the market I am behind. Be it Eve or Neverwinter, I will be behind in progression or levels. At this point you can't buy max level characters in MMOs. However, once you get to max level you can get the best gear in the game in a lot of recent F2P/B2P MMOs.
Hope you caught the difference.