I think it really depends on the game. An open world sandbox that focuses on economics and pvp would suffer with fast travel or especially instant travel. A theme park game that doesn't depend on people being out in the world fighting over resources isn't going to be near as effected by fast travel or instant travel options.
So it really depends on how they build the entire rest of the game as to whether or not the game should have fast travel. It's going to be a "sandbox", but that doesn't really tell us very much.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think every game suffers with fast travel. Take a look at Guild Wars 2. The world is literally barren of players, but there are a lot of people playing. A combination of instances and fast travel simply make it so players don't need to be in the open world for long.
Those in favor of no fast travel are not required to USE fast travel. If you want to run all the way from Qeynos to Freeport for the 1000th time, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you don't have the self control to not use fast travel yet think fast travel is bad... then I think you need to rethink "fast travel is bad".
And I played a druid in EQ1... I played Taxi for quite a few people over the years. I made some money (I never required payment)... helped some people out.... and they probably paid and played longer because of it. Running around without jboots or as a newbie could be a very, very annoying experience. People stopped playing/paying because of it. It's why most games these days added fast travel. They like paying customers.
Except that the presence of fast travel dictates how the rest of the world is utilized and shaped by both the players and the developers. MMOs do need some kind of fast travel system, but how it is implemented matters. In your example, that system was built and run by the players and enhanced the overall game experience. Modern games make it so that you can utilize these systems that will take you almost anywhere without requiring any of that interaction with other players, hurting the development of the world (because no one has any reason to be out in it after the first trip) and community (why bother talk to people when you don't have to?). There must be a real and forced cost to using it and it must be integrated with the rest of the world design; otherwise, it does more harm than good in the long term.
Bring back the old classes. want to move fast you need sow. Tanks or clerics shouldn't be as fast as a ranger or thief. It wasn't broken. Bring back the trinity. I want my character to have an important role... Not every role. Monks were fun to play but not needed alot in a group. But every monk i knew agreed with it. Bards did alot too. But no specialty. Still could be big and fun to play.
Originally posted by Bcuda Bring back the old classes. want to move fast you need sow. Tanks or clerics shouldn't be as fast as a ranger or thief. It wasn't broken. Bring back the trinity. I want my character to have an important role... Not every role. Monks were fun to play but not needed alot in a group. But every monk i knew agreed with it. Bards did alot too. But no specialty. Still could be big and fun to play.
And no mercenaries. Thats a dead give away that the game is bleeding and dying. I cant find anyone to play with so i buy a friend to heal me and a friend to fight for me. For real cash .Then I log out for the last time.
I would like to have the original model of travel from EQ1.
1. Wizard spires (wizards can port ppl at higher levels)
2. Druid rings (Druids can port ppl at higher levels)
3. Regular SOW for faster run speed.
4. Possibly add mounts for slightly faster movement than SOW, but should be expensive. (Player controlled mounts)
5. HUGE NONO!!! to any form of Taxi services. (example... Griffin towers in EQ2, stables EQ2.. etc, etc...)
Personally, no mounts until you are level capped. Not even slow ones. It's all about the journey and not the destination. Well okay it's a little about the destination.
The best way to handle mounts would be to probably make them be like real mounts. Horses do not run at extremely fast speeds all the time. While it can reach high speeds, a horse will wear itself out if you push it too long or too hard. Horses also require food and water and if you ride it through a bunch of mobs, it could get killed.
It would mean that there would be no mount summoning. If a player wants to have a horse, they will need to find a nearby outpost and stable it before they go out adventuring or risk losing it.
As long as things like mounts are added realistically, a lot of the problems they bring in the modern MMO don't exist. This also means that even really large worlds can feel populated because the vast majority of travelers would be traveling by riding a horse along a road.
The best way to handle mounts would be to probably make them be like real mounts. Horses do not run at extremely fast speeds all the time. While it can reach high speeds, a horse will wear itself out if you push it too long or too hard. Horses also require food and water and if you ride it through a bunch of mobs, it could get killed.
It would mean that there would be no mount summoning. If a player wants to have a horse, they will need to find a nearby outpost and stable it before they go out adventuring or risk losing it.
As long as things like mounts are added realistically, a lot of the problems they bring in the modern MMO don't exist. This also means that even really large worlds can feel populated because the vast majority of travelers would be traveling by riding a horse along a road.
I'd love for them to have a mount system like this. Mortal online was a good example of that system.
Originally posted by ice-vortex I think every game suffers with fast travel. Take a look at Guild Wars 2. The world is literally barren of players, but there are a lot of people playing. A combination of instances and fast travel simply make it so players don't need to be in the open world for long.
I remember the long waits (10-15 minutes) for shuttles back in pre-CU SWG. A lot of socializing went on at the shuttleports, and a new Entertainer always had a ready audience there for skilling-up. I was happy when the wait was dropped to 5 minutes (I once made a really dumb snap decision because I was afraid of missing my ride). But when they dropped it to one minute, all of that went away. Not good.
Those in favor of no fast travel are not required to USE fast travel. If you want to run all the way from Qeynos to Freeport for the 1000th time, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you don't have the self control to not use fast travel yet think fast travel is bad... then I think you need to rethink "fast travel is bad".
And I played a druid in EQ1... I played Taxi for quite a few people over the years. I made some money (I never required payment)... helped some people out.... and they probably paid and played longer because of it. Running around without jboots or as a newbie could be a very, very annoying experience. People stopped playing/paying because of it. It's why most games these days added fast travel. They like paying customers.
there's a difference between fast travel and travel enhancements. fast travel = the nexus. teleports to everywhere and all you have to do is click, be on the opposite side of the world in the time it takes to sneeze.
travel enhancements = mounts, run speed buffs, regional teleports that require player investment (time/money - leveling a wizard to 50 for group teleport), rare quick travel items (runes from UO as an example), boats / ferries, etc.
there's so much they can do to enhance travel but still make it a timesink. travel NEEDS to be a forced timesink. you can't put widely available fast travel options and then tell people "just dont use them if you dont like it," because everybody would use it anyway. there's no way anybody would party with you if they had to wait for you to run from halfway across norrath and they all just clicked "enter dungeon." on the other side, if everybody had to run everywhere but there were limited options for quick travel it would be expected that you may have to wait on somebody if you invite them to party with you in cabilis and they are in freeport, unless of course you planned ahead enough to have a wizard / druid / whatever to get them to you quickly.
it comes down to this; worlds that allow quick travel as the main mode of transport are no longer worlds, they are lobbies or snapshots. everything in between the hotspots is missed and widely overlooked. allowing quick travel in a large game is akin to creating instances for each little area, you might as well be playing diablo 2 or some 15 minutes of fun xbox game. EQ 1 was about immersion in the game world and you can't have immersion when you don't spend time in the world because you can just get everywhere instantly.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
Originally posted by ice-vortex I think every game suffers with fast travel. Take a look at Guild Wars 2. The world is literally barren of players, but there are a lot of people playing. A combination of instances and fast travel simply make it so players don't need to be in the open world for long.
I remember the long waits (10-15 minutes) for shuttles back in pre-CU SWG. A lot of socializing went on at the shuttleports, and a new Entertainer always had a ready audience there for skilling-up. I was happy when the wait was dropped to 5 minutes (I once made a really dumb snap decision because I was afraid of missing my ride). But when they dropped it to one minute, all of that went away. Not good.
If it was so awesome and wonderful to wait for things, then why aren't people hanging out regardless of how fast the shuttles arrived? Could it be doing whatever it was that they really wanted to do was more fun than watching someone macro grind dances?
Would surprice me if there are no fast travel in this game, othervice game will have very few people playing it after the first few months, same goes for harsh deathpenalty.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
Yes, it does, and not insignificantly either. The methods and speeds that the majority of the people travel is going to dictate where the majority of resources for world development go, so you can't just tell one person that they are free to travel however they wish while everyone else is using instateleports, and expect there to be anything meaningful designed in spaces between the dungeons and towns that people are jumping directly to.
If it was so awesome and wonderful to wait for things, then why aren't people hanging out regardless of how fast the shuttles arrived? Could it be doing whatever it was that they really wanted to do was more fun than watching someone macro grind dances?
And we all saw where that "Faster, faster, faster! No downtime or interdependence wanted or needed!" notion got us. CU -> NGE -> dead. What we want isn't necessarily good for us.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
Yes, it does, and not insignificantly either. The methods and speeds that the majority of the people travel is going to dictate where the majority of resources for world development go, so you can't just tell one person that they are free to travel however they wish while everyone else is using instateleports, and expect there to be anything meaningful designed in spaces between the dungeons and towns that people are jumping directly to.
Agreed. Plus to reference eric's "live in your own world" comment, we have been. Everyone has basically been living in their own world since 2005 or so. It's been a lonely place and that was not the appeal to us that got us into MMOs in the first place. Minor inconveniences (yes, travel is minor) like these tend to work with other systems put in place to promote something bigger than just getting to x to kill y to get z, repeat. People who weren't there to appreciate it wouldn't understand however.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
If it was so awesome and wonderful to wait for things, then why aren't people hanging out regardless of how fast the shuttles arrived? Could it be doing whatever it was that they really wanted to do was more fun than watching someone macro grind dances?
And we all saw where that "Faster, faster, faster! No downtime or interdependence wanted or needed!" notion got us. CU -> NGE -> dead. What we want isn't necessarily good for us.
As a beta tester of SWG, the game was dead before it released. Missing professions, reliance on macroing (thanks UO!), no real 'jedi' plan... but it was released anyways. So you see it as CU -> NGE -> dead, I see SWG as dead -> CU -> NGE -> still dead. Faster travel was a bandage to try to cover a gaping cavity of a fatal chest wound.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
Yes, it does, and not insignificantly either. The methods and speeds that the majority of the people travel is going to dictate where the majority of resources for world development go, so you can't just tell one person that they are free to travel however they wish while everyone else is using instateleports, and expect there to be anything meaningful designed in spaces between the dungeons and towns that people are jumping directly to.
Agreed. Plus to reference eric's "live in your own world" comment, we have been. Everyone has basically been living in their own world since 2005 or so. It's been a lonely place and that was not the appeal to us that got us into MMOs in the first place. Minor inconveniences (yes, travel is minor) like these tend to work with other systems put in place to promote something bigger than just getting to x to kill y to get z, repeat. People who weren't there to appreciate it wouldn't understand however.
If that "weren't there to appreciate it" comment was directed at me: I've been MUDing since 1991, EQ1 since 1999... I skipped UO because I didn't care for the style of game it was. I mentioned previously I was a druid... part of the reason I picked druid was because of fast travel. People who weren't there don't realize people would log off the game rather than run from one end of the world to the other if they couldn't find a wiz or druid. When a game mechanic makes a large majority of people NOT WANT TO PLAY your game, it is a bad game mechanic. Unless, of course, you desire to have an empty world ... to yourself.
I remember spending hours getting the guild together to raid Emp Snake, Vex Thal, Tormax or Vindi. And as a druid, I was one of the people who had to go around and pick people up (and since druids were not desired in raiding guilds beyond 1 or 2 for the buffs, I didn't have a lot of help). PoK helped a lot with that thankfully.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
Yes, it does, and not insignificantly either. The methods and speeds that the majority of the people travel is going to dictate where the majority of resources for world development go, so you can't just tell one person that they are free to travel however they wish while everyone else is using instateleports, and expect there to be anything meaningful designed in spaces between the dungeons and towns that people are jumping directly to.
Agreed. Plus to reference eric's "live in your own world" comment, we have been. Everyone has basically been living in their own world since 2005 or so. It's been a lonely place and that was not the appeal to us that got us into MMOs in the first place. Minor inconveniences (yes, travel is minor) like these tend to work with other systems put in place to promote something bigger than just getting to x to kill y to get z, repeat. People who weren't there to appreciate it wouldn't understand however.
If that "weren't there to appreciate it" comment was directed at me: I've been MUDing since 1991, EQ1 since 1999... I skipped UO because I didn't care for the style of game it was. I mentioned previously I was a druid... part of the reason I picked druid was because of fast travel. People who weren't there don't realize people would log off the game rather than run from one end of the world to the other if they couldn't find a wiz or druid. When a game mechanic makes a large majority of people NOT WANT TO PLAY your game, it is a bad game mechanic. Unless, of course, you desire to have an empty world ... to yourself.
I remember spending hours getting the guild together to raid Emp Snake, Vex Thal, Tormax or Vindi. And as a druid, I was one of the people who had to go around and pick people up (and since druids were not desired in raiding guilds beyond 1 or 2 for the buffs, I didn't have a lot of help). PoK helped a lot with that thankfully.
Those people who are saying no fast travel at all are just as blind as must have insta travel everywhere. It is required in some form or another, but fast travel in the earlier games required community support and sustained community interaction. People may not have liked having to wait to find a wiz or a druid, but it's those little interactions that build and sustain communities; being forced to rely on other players is a minor convenience at times, but worth the cost in the long run. Even as late as FFXI, fast travel was still largely provided by players, and the dev ran systems still kept the people using them in the world and in potential contact with each other. Modern systems hurt the world as a whole because they not only takes the player out of the world and potential contact with others along the way, but they remove the need to interact with the other players in little ways, and without those little interactions, the big community interactions never really develop.
Those people who are saying no fast travel at all are just as blind as must have insta travel everywhere. It is required in some form or another, but fast travel in the earlier games required community support and sustained community interaction. People may not have liked having to wait to find a wiz or a druid, but it's those little interactions that build and sustain communities; being forced to rely on other players is a minor convenience at times, but worth the cost in the long run. Even as late as FFXI, fast travel was still largely provided by players, and the dev ran systems still kept the people using them in the world and in potential contact with each other. Modern systems hurt the world as a whole because they not only takes the player out of the world and potential contact with others along the way, but they remove the need to interact with the other players in little ways, and without those little interactions, the big community interactions never really develop.
Agree totally. In these discussions I never really considered Wiz or Druid ports to be included with 'fast travel'. Unless you were one you still had to make the effort to find someone willing to port you, which usually wasn't too bad since there was almost always someone advertising a port service. I didn't even mind the Luclin ports either. Was very minimal but could get you around much quicker than before on your own. PoK REALLY shrunk the world though. There was a completely different feel to the game when they brought in the PoP expansion that's hard to explain. Probably a combination of the fast travel, the huge increase in exp / items and the first truly teired raid content in EQ.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
There isn't much incentive to travel in MMOs though, and it depends on the design of the MMO. The objectives of the game determine if unnecessary (or necessary) travel is meaningful or just wasting time. Sadly, it's the latter in the majority of MMOs.
I'd like them to provide multiple "tiers" of travel. The game will be FTP with some sort of sub/cash shop which can open up a lot of options.
FTP get to run by foot or take taxi systems that go the long way and are boring but get you from A to B. (WoW and DAoC travel) still cost game currency.
Subs can purchase/craft a mount of some sort that can be used freely but require some sort of maintenance, less pokemon style summoning and dismissing.
Players can provide magical transport over long distances but require hard to come by reagents so there is some effort involved besides a one click skill. Even toss in special location requirement and long cool down.
Cash shop could provide some sort of quick "instant" travel but have a very long cool down or other restrictions so the rich guys can't just be zooming around all the time, but if you are late to the party, you have an option to get there quick every once in a while.
Just some ideas. Seems a lot of people only go for the extremes, there are so many possibilities that games have only touched upon over the years that I think we get stuck with the same old expectations.
Would love to see players able to raise/breed mounts and maintain stables. Along with boats and other means of transport that would add more to those that like to socialize, craft/build, and play the economy instead of killing mobs or players all day.
Being a "sandbox" hopefully we can build towns or trade routes that again would give a lot more options and bring us all together instead of everyone speeding around the world without seeing another player.
Comments
I think it really depends on the game. An open world sandbox that focuses on economics and pvp would suffer with fast travel or especially instant travel. A theme park game that doesn't depend on people being out in the world fighting over resources isn't going to be near as effected by fast travel or instant travel options.
So it really depends on how they build the entire rest of the game as to whether or not the game should have fast travel. It's going to be a "sandbox", but that doesn't really tell us very much.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Except that the presence of fast travel dictates how the rest of the world is utilized and shaped by both the players and the developers. MMOs do need some kind of fast travel system, but how it is implemented matters. In your example, that system was built and run by the players and enhanced the overall game experience. Modern games make it so that you can utilize these systems that will take you almost anywhere without requiring any of that interaction with other players, hurting the development of the world (because no one has any reason to be out in it after the first trip) and community (why bother talk to people when you don't have to?). There must be a real and forced cost to using it and it must be integrated with the rest of the world design; otherwise, it does more harm than good in the long term.
And no mercenaries. Thats a dead give away that the game is bleeding and dying. I cant find anyone to play with so i buy a friend to heal me and a friend to fight for me. For real cash .Then I log out for the last time.
The best way to handle mounts would be to probably make them be like real mounts. Horses do not run at extremely fast speeds all the time. While it can reach high speeds, a horse will wear itself out if you push it too long or too hard. Horses also require food and water and if you ride it through a bunch of mobs, it could get killed.
It would mean that there would be no mount summoning. If a player wants to have a horse, they will need to find a nearby outpost and stable it before they go out adventuring or risk losing it.
As long as things like mounts are added realistically, a lot of the problems they bring in the modern MMO don't exist. This also means that even really large worlds can feel populated because the vast majority of travelers would be traveling by riding a horse along a road.
I'd love for them to have a mount system like this. Mortal online was a good example of that system.
I remember the long waits (10-15 minutes) for shuttles back in pre-CU SWG. A lot of socializing went on at the shuttleports, and a new Entertainer always had a ready audience there for skilling-up. I was happy when the wait was dropped to 5 minutes (I once made a really dumb snap decision because I was afraid of missing my ride). But when they dropped it to one minute, all of that went away. Not good.
Again, I say, YOU can make your own travel a timesink if you wish. There is nothing stopping you. You can live in your "world" where you walk/run everywhere. How someone else gets from point A to point B doesn't change your "world" in the slightest.
If it was so awesome and wonderful to wait for things, then why aren't people hanging out regardless of how fast the shuttles arrived? Could it be doing whatever it was that they really wanted to do was more fun than watching someone macro grind dances?
Yes, it does, and not insignificantly either. The methods and speeds that the majority of the people travel is going to dictate where the majority of resources for world development go, so you can't just tell one person that they are free to travel however they wish while everyone else is using instateleports, and expect there to be anything meaningful designed in spaces between the dungeons and towns that people are jumping directly to.
And we all saw where that "Faster, faster, faster! No downtime or interdependence wanted or needed!" notion got us. CU -> NGE -> dead. What we want isn't necessarily good for us.
Agreed. Plus to reference eric's "live in your own world" comment, we have been. Everyone has basically been living in their own world since 2005 or so. It's been a lonely place and that was not the appeal to us that got us into MMOs in the first place. Minor inconveniences (yes, travel is minor) like these tend to work with other systems put in place to promote something bigger than just getting to x to kill y to get z, repeat. People who weren't there to appreciate it wouldn't understand however.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
As a beta tester of SWG, the game was dead before it released. Missing professions, reliance on macroing (thanks UO!), no real 'jedi' plan... but it was released anyways. So you see it as CU -> NGE -> dead, I see SWG as dead -> CU -> NGE -> still dead. Faster travel was a bandage to try to cover a gaping cavity of a fatal chest wound.
If that "weren't there to appreciate it" comment was directed at me: I've been MUDing since 1991, EQ1 since 1999... I skipped UO because I didn't care for the style of game it was. I mentioned previously I was a druid... part of the reason I picked druid was because of fast travel. People who weren't there don't realize people would log off the game rather than run from one end of the world to the other if they couldn't find a wiz or druid. When a game mechanic makes a large majority of people NOT WANT TO PLAY your game, it is a bad game mechanic. Unless, of course, you desire to have an empty world ... to yourself.
I remember spending hours getting the guild together to raid Emp Snake, Vex Thal, Tormax or Vindi. And as a druid, I was one of the people who had to go around and pick people up (and since druids were not desired in raiding guilds beyond 1 or 2 for the buffs, I didn't have a lot of help). PoK helped a lot with that thankfully.
Those people who are saying no fast travel at all are just as blind as must have insta travel everywhere. It is required in some form or another, but fast travel in the earlier games required community support and sustained community interaction. People may not have liked having to wait to find a wiz or a druid, but it's those little interactions that build and sustain communities; being forced to rely on other players is a minor convenience at times, but worth the cost in the long run. Even as late as FFXI, fast travel was still largely provided by players, and the dev ran systems still kept the people using them in the world and in potential contact with each other. Modern systems hurt the world as a whole because they not only takes the player out of the world and potential contact with others along the way, but they remove the need to interact with the other players in little ways, and without those little interactions, the big community interactions never really develop.
Agree totally. In these discussions I never really considered Wiz or Druid ports to be included with 'fast travel'. Unless you were one you still had to make the effort to find someone willing to port you, which usually wasn't too bad since there was almost always someone advertising a port service. I didn't even mind the Luclin ports either. Was very minimal but could get you around much quicker than before on your own. PoK REALLY shrunk the world though. There was a completely different feel to the game when they brought in the PoP expansion that's hard to explain. Probably a combination of the fast travel, the huge increase in exp / items and the first truly teired raid content in EQ.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
There isn't much incentive to travel in MMOs though, and it depends on the design of the MMO. The objectives of the game determine if unnecessary (or necessary) travel is meaningful or just wasting time. Sadly, it's the latter in the majority of MMOs.
I'd like them to provide multiple "tiers" of travel. The game will be FTP with some sort of sub/cash shop which can open up a lot of options.
FTP get to run by foot or take taxi systems that go the long way and are boring but get you from A to B. (WoW and DAoC travel) still cost game currency.
Subs can purchase/craft a mount of some sort that can be used freely but require some sort of maintenance, less pokemon style summoning and dismissing.
Players can provide magical transport over long distances but require hard to come by reagents so there is some effort involved besides a one click skill. Even toss in special location requirement and long cool down.
Cash shop could provide some sort of quick "instant" travel but have a very long cool down or other restrictions so the rich guys can't just be zooming around all the time, but if you are late to the party, you have an option to get there quick every once in a while.
Just some ideas. Seems a lot of people only go for the extremes, there are so many possibilities that games have only touched upon over the years that I think we get stuck with the same old expectations.
Would love to see players able to raise/breed mounts and maintain stables. Along with boats and other means of transport that would add more to those that like to socialize, craft/build, and play the economy instead of killing mobs or players all day.
Being a "sandbox" hopefully we can build towns or trade routes that again would give a lot more options and bring us all together instead of everyone speeding around the world without seeing another player.