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£15,000 - The biggest MMORPG scam ever? Gaming or griefing?

This was posted today on the EVE Online forums:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=172529&page=1

It basically details the robbery and destruction of properties worth over 30 BILLION ISK (the ingame currency) as part of a paid 'contract'.

The target corporation was infiltrated five months ago in a carefully considered operation.

Just to give an idea of the scale of this 1 million ISK = approx 50p on Ebay...

Therefore 30 billions ISK = approx. £15,000 of real life cash (if capitalised on)

The battleship which was destroyed as part of this operation is a pretty unique item that requires over TWO MONTHS of intensive missioning/work to obtain. It alone is worth several billions.

So is this the biggest in game robbery in history?

And is this part of the game or just griefing?

Either way a pretty interesting story I think...

Amarr Victor

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Comments

  • DuckyDucky Member Posts: 413
    War is war, low blow, but they knew what kind of corporation they were dealing with, but that amount of secrecy! wow!

    image

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201

    Corporate espionage and sabotage are a part of the EVE Online universe. Presuming the truth of the case presented, that is an extreme example of what is possible in that game. Not only is this a part of the EVE game but it is essentially encouraged as a part of the gaming mechanics by the developers. All things considered, it fits the game.

    I never once joined a player corporation in my 9 months of EVE Online play, and this has a lot to do with it. I had enough of guild politics in EverQuest after being a raid leader for over a year in a powerful guild.

  • HardinHardin Member Posts: 70

    Yep... it is part of the game...

    My Corp was also robbed though thanks to security measures the haul was nowehere near the scale of the above robbery...

    Amarr Victor

  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923
    Reading thru the posts from the link my little knowledge of eve online says this was all part of the game even though it hurts.
  • elateelate Member UncommonPosts: 72

    It's part of the game but it's not to be applauded.

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559

    Sure £15,000 sound a lot, but its illegal to sell/buy in eve and players should never do it as it will make them lose perspective of game.

    That lost sound very harsh and sort of feel sorry for him, but its still part of game and wouldnt want it any other way. No way anyone should never be trusted that much of asset... ever.

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559

    Ok, reading bit more about it and it's not really what some invidual lost, but more like corp/alliance, so while it hurts many it doesn't hurt one player so much. Here victim corp is telling that they are getting back up http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=172561&page=1#14 .

    I hope they learned valuable lesson that "don't put all your eggs in one basket" and divine the assets with trusted members, so even if one was thief or decided to scam it wouldn't hurt corp/alliance much. Active alliance can get that 30bil back in matter of weeks in eve.

  • ImperatorianImperatorian Member Posts: 1,000

    Hey hardin. It's me, Imperator.


    That's quite a rough attack right there. Dang, 30bil isk.

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    I have but one thing to say:
    It's a *game*
    Nothing of value was taken. They played within the context of the Game. I applaud them for their ingenuity.

    I personally can't stand EVE for various reasons but this was a very well planned and thought out mission. The players shouldn't be punished for pulling off a successful specops mission.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • HardinHardin Member Posts: 70



    Originally posted by leipuri

    Ok, reading bit more about it and it's not really what some invidual lost, but more like corp/alliance, so while it hurts many it doesn't hurt one player so much. Here victim corp is telling that they are getting back up http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=172561&page=1#14 .
    I hope they learned valuable lesson that "don't put all your eggs in one basket" and divine the assets with trusted members, so even if one was thief or decided to scam it wouldn't hurt corp/alliance much. Active alliance can get that 30bil back in matter of weeks in eve.


     

    The alliance in question is one of the smallest in the game AND based in Empire... As someone also in a small alliance and based in Empire I can assure you that our corp wallet has never exceeded 1 billion isk - let alone 30 :)

    Regardless I don't actually think the alliance bore the brunt of this. It was one smallish corp and one individual person that took the main knock. I am not sure the alliance, which only formed a week ago anyway, will replace those losses that quick. 

    The 'unique' battleship and implants Mirial lost were in excess of 4 billion on their own - To even get that battleship you need to put months of dedicated 'work' in with an agent... To lose it must be soul destroying...

    Amarr Victor

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559

    Yeah, but most of time members have their own private assests and not donate/work for corp, but try build their own. I am thinking/hoping that 30bil worth of stuff was 'corp assets' and members had their private ones too, so if they work together and donate all some work for corp it wouldnt take long.

    10-20mil per hour from level 4 agents * 100 runners = 2bil for hour of work from each members.

    Also when looking at some of these BPOs they should have a lot more isk from manufacturing, so just guessing these profits are in members pockets.

    But I agree that Implants and navy apoc hurts the target, since he lost them alone, but if they had milked the market with these BPOs long enough then he should be able to get new ones.

  • OwynOwyn Member Posts: 337

    It bothers me to see people use a real-world cost analysis of the losses. It's a game - what they did was perfectly within the rules of the game, and was pretty impressive.

    Owyn
    Commander, Defenders of Order
    http://www.defendersoforder.com

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    It's a game
    He had fun getting the money/whatever
    He can have fun getting it again

    It's a GAME remember? It's not WORK its something you do to pass the time and relax.

    If it's NOT a game then why the hell play it?

    Personally I tried EVE. Those who are saying it's "hard work" and "hours of tedium" are exactly right. The game is boring. It's tedius and it's definitely *work*.

    So I kinda-sorta feel sorry for the guy who got his stuff taken. But the bottom line is that the guy who nailed him didn't do *anything* wrong. He played completely within the context of the game and the guy who lost the ship got burned fair and square.

    Personally I don't understand how people can enjoy a game that requires soooooo much ***work*** to accomplish anything. If I wanted to *work* I'd go to the office, not play a video game. At least at the office I get paid to work :)

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • XiraXira Member Posts: 437

    Be glad they both aren't in Korea or he could get his money back^_^

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by Elnator
    Personally I tried EVE. Those who are saying it's "hard work" and "hours of tedium" are exactly right. The game is boring. It's tedius and it's definitely *work*.



    Its one of less tedium mmorpgs I know and I have played most popular mmorgps. It can be work if all you do is mine or mission run, but so does most other mmorpgs if all you do is grind levels or do quests for some good items or farm gold/silver/credits, but didfference is that you dont have to mine or mission run to advance in eve and game is quite open what you can do unlike most other games where you have to camp or do quests to advance next level.


     

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955


    Originally posted by Xira
    Be glad they both aren't in Korea or he could get his money back^_^


    How? Corporate infiltration is a part of the game. This isnt an unusual scenario. Really these guys are just tooting their horn. They think they're special. They're not.

  • _myko_myko Member Posts: 333

    in answer to the original question, its definately gaming, just well in excess of most games. People criticise the point and click combat system, but its this kind of espionage and political warface that makes eve unique (afaik). This is player generated content, not some trashy script the devs decided to implement in a ham-fisted way, and will cause more reaction than any plotline.

    It might cause some people to leave the game, it will definately make other corps ensure that they use the protection against corp theft that is already available. This proves that no matter how much carebears complain to devs, the devs can never protect them from themselves (there are secure hangars, security roles, password protected secure cans etc.).

    Killing a navy issue Apoc (3 billion isk, rare) with an Imperial issue Apoc (priceless, 2 exist in game) as a centrepiece of a huge campaign is very impressive.

    ---sig---

    PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077

    Bah this is hardly unique to EVE. In DAOC guilds utilized spies on a regular basis. In SWG they do as well. Same for almost any competitive PVP style game. Hell even in EQ and UO there were spies. PlanetSide, same...

    This is nothing new.... Frankly it's not even really 'news'.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Elnator
    Bah this is hardly unique to EVE. In DAOC guilds utilized spies on a regular basis. In SWG they do as well. Same for almost any competitive PVP style game. Hell even in EQ and UO there were spies. PlanetSide, same...This is nothing new.... Frankly it's not even really 'news'.

    As far as I am aware, nothing on this scale has ever been done anywhere before. If you want to make dismissals like you have in this quote you had best come up with some evidence as to how something on this scale and impact has been done in any other game.


  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by ianubisi
    Originally posted by Elnator
    Bah this is hardly unique to EVE. In DAOC guilds utilized spies on a regular basis. In SWG they do as well. Same for almost any competitive PVP style game. Hell even in EQ and UO there were spies. PlanetSide, same...This is nothing new.... Frankly it's not even really 'news'.

    As far as I am aware, nothing on this scale has ever been done anywhere before. If you want to make dismissals like you have in this quote you had best come up with some evidence as to how something on this scale and impact has been done in any other game.


    Never said it was 'on this scale' but, to me, it's a moot point. You value 30 billion ISK more than I. Personally I don't think if you're playing a game and earning in game money while playing that it qualifies as "work" since you are primarily playing for the fun, not to earn the cash (or one would hope anyway).

    But to site a specific example:
    UO: PK guild infiltrated and 'stole' several castles by placing people in trusted positions within a guild. Once they had keys it was over (pre security system, but same thing today could be done). I think like 10 full castles got cleaned out.

    SWG: Similar things have happened to players who were too generous with access to their homes.

    EQ: Same goes for guilds who got tricked into granting someone access to the guild "Mule". I remember distinctly on Veeshan when a guild allowed a member access to the 'vault' character and he stole what was, at the time, worth about 2-3,000.00 on Ebay in rare or hard to find equipment/spells etc. Not that the thief sold the items on ebay, he actually sold them in game for tons of plat. Nobody made a huge deal of it though since it was our own fault for trusting the character.

    Hell in game I remember on day 1 of final in EQ I created a character named "Banker" and cleaned house from noobs handing me their money and/or items :)

    Scams are in every MMO. This was just a particularly sneaky one. But the concept is NOT unique to EVE. At all.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Elnator
    Scams are in every MMO. This was just a particularly sneaky one. But the concept is NOT unique to EVE. At all.

    Who said the concept was unique? This isn't a discussion about how EVE has a unique system allowing espionage. The discussion is about whether or not this is a valid form of gaming.

    In the examples you cite, only one truly applies: the UO example. It was, in that day and age (and I recall that example, having been an active player in that time as well as the EQ case) in UO you were allowed to ransack houses/castles/towers to which you had access. This was all a part of the game, and thus it was critical that house owners protect their keys. Sabotage and betrayal were a part of the gaming mechanics, and thus valid play.

    But in the EQ case and any other case of item theft, that is simply an act of personal betrayal and not a part of the gaming mechanics. They may or may not be punishable by GMs, but they are despicable acts nonetheless. In the UO and EVE cases, however, they are not only allowed gameplay mechanics but they are in part encouraged as a style of warfare by developers.

    Incidentally, I think you greatly devalue the weight of damage done in the EVE case. Those Tech II resource BPOs are incredibly difficult to get your hands on, and the unique ship alone is almost priceless.

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by ianubisi
    Originally posted by Elnator
    Scams are in every MMO. This was just a particularly sneaky one. But the concept is NOT unique to EVE. At all.

    Who said the concept was unique? This isn't a discussion about how EVE has a unique system allowing espionage. The discussion is about whether or not this is a valid form of gaming.

    In the examples you cite, only one truly applies: the UO example. It was, in that day and age (and I recall that example, having been an active player in that time as well as the EQ case) in UO you were allowed to ransack houses/castles/towers to which you had access. This was all a part of the game, and thus it was critical that house owners protect their keys. Sabotage and betrayal were a part of the gaming mechanics, and thus valid play.

    But in the EQ case and any other case of item theft, that is simply an act of personal betrayal and not a part of the gaming mechanics. They may or may not be punishable by GMs, but they are despicable acts nonetheless. In the UO and EVE cases, however, they are not only allowed gameplay mechanics but they are in part encouraged as a style of warfare by developers.

    Incidentally, I think you greatly devalue the weight of damage done in the EVE case. Those Tech II resource BPOs are incredibly difficult to get your hands on, and the unique ship alone is almost priceless.


    Actually all of those examples apply. In SWG if you give someone admin privs to your house you're taking a huge risk, which is why I never do it, I learned my lesson long long ago in a Mud I was on :) Never again will I get burned by a scam, no matter how well done :)

    In EQ posing as the banker, I was a rogue, was a clever ruse to get free money and items. It worked flawlessly and a GM and 4 guides DID come see me.

    And applauded my roleplaying

    Because I was pretending to BE a banker. People would walk up and hand me money and I would shift uparrow and say "Thank you for the deposit, your goods are safe with me! Have a nice day!" Many players actually went "COOL THE BANKER TALKS!"

    I got a lot of snickers from former beta players like myself :) And I did get some rather NASTY tells afterward but I didn't care, my rogue had served his purpose :) Sure it was underhanded but it was HARDLY an act of 'personal betrayal'. It was a clever ruse to separate players from their coin and items. And it worked.

    In SWG if you get burned because you trust someone too much it's your own fault. Sure it's an act of betrayal but that's something folks need to be aware of. I *NEVER* give people access to my items unless I know them personally... and even don't do it for most of those folks :) The only person in SWG who has admin rights to my house and generators (I sell power) is my wife, and I know where she sleeps so I know I can exact revenge if she betrays me :) (kidding).

    Anyway, they are all similar.
    And my point is this:
    If you act within the confines of the game itself then it's legit. I don't care what game it is. A scam, no matter how insipid, as long as it is done within the game and within the valid, legal, rules of the game, is perfectly ok.

    Now: The folks who send fake emails asking for account credentials to verify your billing or whatever? THOSE are dispicable.

    And my point that it's not unique to eve was aimed more at the folks that keep touting how this is one of the things that makes Eve so wonderful. It's not. Every game has this dynamic. It's just not generally something you advertise as a 'good' thing :)

    It was also aimed at the person who posted something to the effect of "Play eve and have thousands of dollars in game items stolen!" It's not unique to EVE. In other games people have had their entire account hijacked. Not just a few lousy items.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • UmbroodUmbrood Member UncommonPosts: 1,809

     

    Never mind. :)

     

     

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Jerek_

    I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • HardinHardin Member Posts: 70

    Well this issue has stirred up a complete storm in EVE

    The original thread has now been viewed around 20,000 times and had 13 pages of responses @ 20 responses per page.

    A follow up thread has also now been read 20,000 time and has 23 pages of responses image

    All since Monday...

    Never seen anything attract that much attention...

    Player driven content anyone?

    Amarr Victor

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559

    28 pages, 550 replies and 20184 views and not counting all the posts that have been deleted  from it for breaking forum rules etc.

    So much board drama image

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