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Does a crafter class really make sense?

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  • poisonmanpoisonman Member Posts: 59

    I posted this in another thread about crafters and it looks like other people in this thread have mentioned similar things, but yea...

     

    You know what I was just thinking about with crafters, I know they aren't combat oriented at all and I'm not asking for that, but it would be cool if they could make traps and stuff, would be defensive stuff that would allow them to get away. could be pretty unique.

    They could go crazy and allow crafters to be like engineers from warhammer with turrets and things but I'm pretty sure they don't want to go that route, but traps and defensive things could be cool.

     

    They don't necessarily need to be "combat" at all, just some traps or defensive stuff that allows them to contribute and possibly get away, I'm sure they will still need protecting from their realm, but if they get lost or fall behind they will have at least some chance of getting away, or holding out for a short time for their group to reach them if they aren't too far away.

    Be a cool way for them to contribute to RvR in another way other than just building, crafting, and repairing stuff.  

    Being non combat these things they could do would do little or no damage at all, could just be traps that provide types of CC possible, like snares, roots, whatever so the crafter can get away.

    Could be other defensive things or group based things that possibly buff, cleanse, and heal friendly players.

    Or if you wanted to swing the other direction they could also debuff, damage, poison, CC, etc enemy players, like turrets, traps whatever.

    Some of these things could be invisible to enemy players, and you could make it a meta game against crafters or possibly stealthers and archers from enemy realms that could disarm these traps and things if they have a high enough skill to detect them since they would normally be invisible to enemy players.

    Lots of ideas swirling in my head about this at the moment.

  • ArbroathArbroath Member UncommonPosts: 176

    I intend to play a dedicated crafter in CU. I also expect to get my arse beat if I run across a single fighting class from an opposing faction. The fact that by swinging my hammer to make blades makes me quite strong, it does not offer me the fighting prowess to stand toe to toe with a martial master. Not in any way. I expect that I will need protection. If I venture out alone, I risk being spotted and uncerimoniously beheaded. But I am fine with this. This will force me to interact with my fellow realm mates for protection. And I think that's a good thing. 

    Thats not to say I wouldn't mind a stun or something that I have a chance at hitting with that will help me escape. But I don't think it shuld be much.

    It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath

  • JoeShmoe75JoeShmoe75 Member Posts: 20

    I'm kinda on the fence about this being a good idea, let alone being implemented right.

    I love the idea that a specific Craft line will be able to build kool stuff for rvr and housing. However, if that class cant atleast hold its own somewhat in pvp I dont really see a point to it at all. It is a pvp game.

    They did mention that a skilled crafter will give a(average?) pvp class player a run for his money. That sounds like a lot of effort in the end for little payoff.

    Basically I feel theres a lot of ways for this design to get screwed up completely along the way. The best bet is to just let everybody be able to have max Siegecraft so that anybody willing to take the time to craft will be able to make awesome stuff for rvr. Or dont make Crafter classes a notch down from pvp classes.

  • BenediktBenedikt Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    Originally posted by Arbroath

    I intend to play a dedicated crafter in CU. I also expect to get my arse beat if I run across a single fighting class from an opposing faction. The fact that by swinging my hammer to make blades makes me quite strong, it does not offer me the fighting prowess to stand toe to toe with a martial master. Not in any way. I expect that I will need protection. If I venture out alone, I risk being spotted and uncerimoniously beheaded. But I am fine with this. This will force me to interact with my fellow realm mates for protection. And I think that's a good thing. 

    Thats not to say I wouldn't mind a stun or something that I have a chance at hitting with that will help me escape. But I don't think it shuld be much.

    hm this gives me idea - what if crafter would not have much of a fighting skill, but a LOT of hps? :)

  • KrullenKrullen Member Posts: 18
    Originally posted by MellowTigger

    Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected.  I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction.  It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.

    "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
    - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

    "Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
    - Gen. George S. Patton, USA

    If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history.  If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article.  As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.

    Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat.  Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife?  Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense.  Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon.  A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless.  All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives.  A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.

    “My logisticians are a humorless lot . . . they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
    - Alexander The Great, http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun08/jitime_vs_jicase.html

    Crafting isn't for you?  That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.

    Excellent Post. Tell me your in Alpha as you're the guy I want to have in the backround. I like hit squads too much to give crafting a full time go but I know full well how important it is going to be in this game. All the PvP kings out there dumping on crafting are all going to be clamouring around people like you when they realise they can't kill dick without a top level weapon from what crafters like you are going to be.

    I like your commitment to your playstyle. You would have loved PoTBS.

    DAOC - Krullen - Hero/Tristan

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Member Posts: 263
    Originally posted by Krullen
    Originally posted by MellowTigger

    Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected.  I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction.  It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.

    "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
    - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

    "Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
    - Gen. George S. Patton, USA

    If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history.  If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article.  As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.

    Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat.  Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife?  Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense.  Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon.  A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless.  All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives.  A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.

    “My logisticians are a humorless lot . . . they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
    - Alexander The Great, http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun08/jitime_vs_jicase.html

    Crafting isn't for you?  That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.

    Excellent Post. Tell me your in Alpha as you're the guy I want to have in the backround. I like hit squads too much to give crafting a full time go but I know full well how important it is going to be in this game. All the PvP kings out there dumping on crafting are all going to be clamouring around people like you when they realise they can't kill dick without a top level weapon from what crafters like you are going to be.

    I like your commitment to your playstyle. You would have loved PoTBS.

    Here's the thing though. I don't think anybody denies crafting for gear. Yes, I'm going to buy a sword from X, and a hat from Y or whatever.

    But it's siegecrafting that is at issue here. Yes, a crafter who makes hammers in the safezone is super important and is fueling the war effort. He only needs 1hp.

    But the second you have to drag him out to RVR, considerations have to be made. It would be great if they got "base" combat skills, and then all their advancement was crafting related with minor utility (traps, escapes, whatever) - rather than just "lol I'm a crafter! guide me out there!"

    Unless groups can have a 'reserve' spot to drag a crafter around, I want to see them provide benefit to the group in all scenarios - not just when we need you to hump a wall until it's repaired, or to build us a fort.

    Do crafters really want to stand around and watch other people siege a keep? Plopping down a ram and a trebuchet...that's all you want to do?

    Now, you should NOT *have* to contribute in RVR/siege - banging away on swords should be more than enough. But surely having the option isn't bad.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
    Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
    Healer, Warrior, Skald

  • KrullenKrullen Member Posts: 18
    Crafter Combat utility is a great discussion point. Do they go so far as to make them the Engineer from TF2? Makes every one else fight better and kills with their own creations or another pure healer who heals buildings instead of people and auto attacks?

    DAOC - Krullen - Hero/Tristan

  • KappenWizKappenWiz Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Originally posted by MellowTigger

    Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected.  I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction.  It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.

    "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
    - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

    "Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
    - Gen. George S. Patton, USA

    If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history.  If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article.  As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.

    Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat.  Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife?  Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense.  Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon.  A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless.  All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives.  A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.

    “My logisticians are a humorless lot . . . they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
    - Alexander The Great, http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun08/jitime_vs_jicase.html

    Crafting isn't for you?  That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.

    Good post, and I'll check out those articles for sure, but I have to say, I'd love to be a wizard when Rachel Carson comes at me with a paring knife. image

  • grimjakkgrimjakk Member Posts: 192

    I say give 'em good individual defensive abilities + group buffs like "sword sharpening" and "armor polishing".  If food buffs are added to the system, let 'em be field cooks too. ;)

     

    There's a Korean light novel series that I've kinda fallen in love with... "Moonlight Sculptor".  It's not "fine-literature"  but it definitly has it's moments.  The main character is a VRMMORPG player who, after training for weeks to max out his combat stats, finally goes to pick his class... and gets stuck as a sculptor - the weakest combat class in the game. 

    The fan-translations can be found here:  http://www.royalroadl.com/table-of-content/

  • grimjakkgrimjakk Member Posts: 192

    Or to put it another way, as a dedicated crafter, I spend long hours banging steel on an anvil, digging rock out of a mountain, and piling stones into fortresses.  The crossbow I carry, from a certain angle (the front!) looks more like a siege engine, and when I hit you on the top of the head with a big-arse hammer, you have to unzip your fly to breath.  

    So there. ;)

     

    *edit*  Was that a bit over the top?  /sigh  I have trouble telling... ;)

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