Originally posted by Daizedd Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.
I think this would be a big mistake.
Yes, you should absolutely NOT have to engage in combat- but considering it's an actual class, I think base combat is OK. Considering the lateral advancement(probably?) this could work well.
But nobody wants to waste a group slot on someone who can't contribute to the battle untill we siege a keep. And as fun as escorting crafters to/from a siege is, it'd be nice if you could bring someone without without carrying them.
edit: fixed a slip that changed the entire post aha.
Then don't waste a spot in the group. That's part of what makes it interesting. Trade offs and choices. To do otherwise will just make this like all those other games. In that case, people should just stay with the games we have and devs should never make another game. Do you want something different or more of the same?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.
I hope that will NOT be the case, and that only crafters will be able to gather resources. If non-crafters can gather anything, it should be only the most basic resources that might require larger volumes.
The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around. Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char?
The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around. Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char?
Welcome Home
Rev.
Well, we have yet to see how it's done, but the gameplay of crafting will be planned to be fun to play, so i wouldn't worry about that, as a RvR player will be more inclined to do a crafter if it's not "hit a button and wait for the green bar to fill".
The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around. Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char? Welcome HomeRev.
Lots of people seem to not want a combat role. I will be looking to them to stand around while my guild fights the enemy.
Other. A person should be able to skill up a craft just like a weapon skill. This gives the the player a choice. They can go fully into crafting skills if they want to be a full crafter, or just enough smithing to maintain their gear.
Originally posted by wordiz Other. A person should be able to skill up a craft just like a weapon skill. This gives the the player a choice. They can go fully into crafting skills if they want to be a full crafter, or just enough smithing to maintain their gear.
I don't see how it's "other". It's just the "let any class be crafter" option.
Besides, they already have the choice "do i go fully into crafting skills or do i do a fighter with just enough smithing to maintain my gear ?"
I'm not sold on the idea of a dedicated crafter class, but I'm openminded so I look forward to being impressed
I have no problem picturing a scenario that works (crafters building/operating things while the other classes protect them). What I am worried about are the scenarios that do not work well, and I think it is very important (for developers) to explore the "worst case scenarios" because there are bound to be some pitfalls.
What happens when a lone TDD crafter who is out to gather materials encounters a lone Viking crafter doing the same? My guess would be /dance /dance /dance which might sound cute, but it would be against the spirit of the game. Even if they could poke each other with a stick, would they really be interested in a long fight when they share a common interest (to gather materials)?
I'm not sold on the idea of a dedicated crafter class, but I'm openminded so I look forward to being impressed
I have no problem picturing a scenario that works (crafters building/operating things while the other classes protect them). What I am worried about are the scenarios that do not work well, and I think it is very important (for developers) to explore the "worst case scenarios" because there are bound to be some pitfalls.
What happens when a lone TDD crafter who is out to gather materials encounters a lone Viking crafter doing the same? My guess would be /dance /dance /dance which might sound cute, but it would be against the spirit of the game. Even if they could poke each other with a stick, would they really be interested in a long fight when they share a common interest (to gather materials)?
MJ mentioned in the last update that a smart crafter would have some sort of defense, thought most of the time would be running from the enemy. To me this sounds like "setting up" Since you can craft siege and "traps" then maybe the crafting class will be able to set up some Auto Turrets and traps wherever he is going to harvest. This reminds me of Animists. If you caught an animist out in the open before he set up you could easily kill him, but if you tried to kill an animist set up with a ton of shrooms at a choke point you'd probably insta die. Or another example is Thid Siege. If a thid player set up that uber gun siege then they'd pretty much 2 shot you if you got close to them. Sure stealthers could still sneak up and kill the person but most visibles were toast.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Given the 100% player driven economy concept (mentioned by MJ in videos and noted by a few others but seemingly forgotten by many) I personally think a crafter class makes perfect sense. Perhaps there could even be siege equipment (traps excluded) that only crafters can use? Or in addition to repairing siege equipment on the battlefield they will get additional defensive capabilities beyond traps to bolster the overall defenses of the sieging party. I suppose if you wish to have guildies somehow feed you materials all day long and just park yourself at a forge to craft armor/weapons you would be useful but given the PvP focus it seems like you would be missing out on some fun and some of your potential usefulness. I can even see them as a potential utility class for roaming combat and/or as bait for "fishing" (which I think was mentioned somewhere in the previous 9 pages).
Maybe in the higher tiers of crafting they can have combat abilities. I mean if your swinging a hammer at a forge all day you could probably pound someone pretty good. If your brewing potions all day you could make some nasty bombs/ poisons. Offer some combat abilities that the first tier that everyone can lv up does not.
Yes, I'm sick of MMOs tacking on crafting and then trying to make it "fun" and/or "useful". For me its always some PITA thing I'm forced to do because my toon is better off with it skilled up.
So it being a seperate class or a sub class which has some combat/non crafting orientated alternatives is perfect.
In my retarded brain, so this may end off-topic, I see a crafter as what the name implies. They make all the materials and items the warriors/raiders need. They are able to build roads, camps and something that resembles cities, at the same time producing weapons, food and armour.
If you, for example, find a place, where there’s a lot of iron, cobber or whatever, the crafter could set up a camp with help from a guild, which protects the crafters while they a putting up palisades, and so on. When it’s done, then the crafters build a road that connects the camp to another place, so it’s possible for people to take a horse to it, bringing the travel time to the place down. Then the crafter builds some shops, so people will come and trade, at the same time binding the crafter, and only the crafter, to the place, so he get ressed at the place. Then more crafters arrives, because of the cheap iron, who all needs to be protected. The camp needs to expand now, and something that resembles a city takes form. All the time the place needs to be protected by people, so the place doesn’t get raided and burned down. If you lose the place, the price of iron, or whatever mineral there is, goes up, meaning that weapons and armour becomes more expensive. Because the material you use has to come from someplace.
Crafters are also the only way to get siege weapons, and are the only ones able to build them near the enemy camps. Only they should be able to use siege weaponry that shoots stuff against enemies and their walls. They are able to build rams, ladders and portable towers so the fighters (who have trained all their life for warfare) are able to get through the palisades/walls, and only the crafters should be able to repair the items. They could also set up a camp for prolonged siege/raid, making them able to both sabotage and build roads. Meaning that the longer the road, the more protection it needs, so people are able to travel faster to the battle, if they are so unlucky to get murdered.
I don’t see crafters as someone that are able defend themselves in a 1v1 against any of the other classes. They can have a lot of hp and defensive abilities, but in my view, the focus should be on the crafting war-material and on the “housing” ability, and not close combat. They could have some helpers (meaning NPC’s), which are able to harass the opposition (or even mine for that matter), but only if the enemies gets close to the area where the crafter has set up shop. These NPC’s could cost an amount of money daily, so there’s a reason to craft and sell stuff.
This would give a meaning to RvR, because if you could harass the opposition’s ability to create good quality weaponry or even just armour that looks awesome, then there would be reason to attack and defend a specific place, since as far as i know, items decay when used. Also if you raided such a place, you should be able to loot the items that the crafters had in their store.
This is my view on how a dedicated crafter’s role in RvR should be, if it’s even remotely possible make it work in a game, I don’t know. Also English is not my first language, so apologize if some of the sentences aren’t grammatically correct…
Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected. I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction. It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless." - Gen. George S. Patton, USA
If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history. If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article. As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.
Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat. Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife? Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense. Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon. A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless. All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives. A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.
Crafting isn't for you? That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.
If the crafter class is the only one that can craft weapons/armor/ or items of any sort then yes a crafter class is amazing and makes a big difference. I'm also hoping that items lose max durability when they are repaired, then you could allow the player crafters to repair aswell but if you get it done by a crafter it accualy loses less max durability then if you have it done by a NPC, thus crafting an economy, and obviously if they reach 0 durability they are destroyed completly. You can have NPC merchants who have basic items but the crafters make anything beyond basic items and the NPCs can give the crafters Contracts to gather this much Wood/Ore/Leather and bring it to them for XP and Gold, so they have their own questing, aswell as have Apprenticeships so the crafters have to Craft items with certain Durability and turn them in to the NPCs in order to continue training in a specific crafting field.( Example. You can only get Blacksmithing to 25 skill untill you complete a Apprenticeship from a Black smith which then lets you go up to 50 in blacksmithing, etc. )
Honoestly I dont believe crafters should have any combat abilitys, but give them the option to hire mercenarys or some sort of NPC hirelings to go out in the field with them and protect them for a certain amount of time while gathering resources, or if they have friends online they can pay/get players to protect them while they are out gathering.
Crafting is a huge part of an MMO and I've played a couple small games where I was a Merchant class that couldnt even engage in combat but was the only one that could craft, its great fun, and all the things I've brought up were part of those games and it worked great. Other players love you for making them gear, repairing their stuff and they helped bring you mats you couldnt easily get yourself for discounts on goods, was easy to make a name for yourself and have a customer base, I would love to see this in a big time MMO.
I posted this in another thread about crafters and it looks like other people in this thread have mentioned similar things, but yea...
You know what I was just thinking about with crafters, I know they aren't combat oriented at all and I'm not asking for that, but it would be cool if they could make traps and stuff, would be defensive stuff that would allow them to get away. could be pretty unique.
They could go crazy and allow crafters to be like engineers from warhammer with turrets and things but I'm pretty sure they don't want to go that route, but traps and defensive things could be cool.
They don't necessarily need to be "combat" at all, just some traps or defensive stuff that allows them to contribute and possibly get away, I'm sure they will still need protecting from their realm, but if they get lost or fall behind they will have at least some chance of getting away, or holding out for a short time for their group to reach them if they aren't too far away.
Be a cool way for them to contribute to RvR in another way other than just building, crafting, and repairing stuff.
Being non combat these things they could do would do little or no damage at all, could just be traps that provide types of CC possible, like snares, roots, whatever so the crafter can get away.
Could be other defensive things or group based things that possibly buff, cleanse, and heal friendly players.
Or if you wanted to swing the other direction they could also debuff, damage, poison, CC, etc enemy players, like turrets, traps whatever.
Some of these things could be invisible to enemy players, and you could make it a meta game against crafters or possibly stealthers and archers from enemy realms that could disarm these traps and things if they have a high enough skill to detect them since they would normally be invisible to enemy players.
Lots of ideas swirling in my head about this at the moment.
I intend to play a dedicated crafter in CU. I also expect to get my arse beat if I run across a single fighting class from an opposing faction. The fact that by swinging my hammer to make blades makes me quite strong, it does not offer me the fighting prowess to stand toe to toe with a martial master. Not in any way. I expect that I will need protection. If I venture out alone, I risk being spotted and uncerimoniously beheaded. But I am fine with this. This will force me to interact with my fellow realm mates for protection. And I think that's a good thing.
Thats not to say I wouldn't mind a stun or something that I have a chance at hitting with that will help me escape. But I don't think it shuld be much.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
I'm kinda on the fence about this being a good idea, let alone being implemented right.
I love the idea that a specific Craft line will be able to build kool stuff for rvr and housing. However, if that class cant atleast hold its own somewhat in pvp I dont really see a point to it at all. It is a pvp game.
They did mention that a skilled crafter will give a(average?) pvp class player a run for his money. That sounds like a lot of effort in the end for little payoff.
Basically I feel theres a lot of ways for this design to get screwed up completely along the way. The best bet is to just let everybody be able to have max Siegecraft so that anybody willing to take the time to craft will be able to make awesome stuff for rvr. Or dont make Crafter classes a notch down from pvp classes.
I intend to play a dedicated crafter in CU. I also expect to get my arse beat if I run across a single fighting class from an opposing faction. The fact that by swinging my hammer to make blades makes me quite strong, it does not offer me the fighting prowess to stand toe to toe with a martial master. Not in any way. I expect that I will need protection. If I venture out alone, I risk being spotted and uncerimoniously beheaded. But I am fine with this. This will force me to interact with my fellow realm mates for protection. And I think that's a good thing.
Thats not to say I wouldn't mind a stun or something that I have a chance at hitting with that will help me escape. But I don't think it shuld be much.
hm this gives me idea - what if crafter would not have much of a fighting skill, but a LOT of hps?
Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected. I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction. It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless." - Gen. George S. Patton, USA
If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history. If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article. As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.
Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat. Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife? Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense. Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon. A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless. All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives. A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.
Crafting isn't for you? That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.
Excellent Post. Tell me your in Alpha as you're the guy I want to have in the backround. I like hit squads too much to give crafting a full time go but I know full well how important it is going to be in this game. All the PvP kings out there dumping on crafting are all going to be clamouring around people like you when they realise they can't kill dick without a top level weapon from what crafters like you are going to be.
I like your commitment to your playstyle. You would have loved PoTBS.
Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected. I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction. It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless." - Gen. George S. Patton, USA
If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history. If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article. As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.
Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat. Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife? Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense. Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon. A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless. All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives. A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.
Crafting isn't for you? That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.
Excellent Post. Tell me your in Alpha as you're the guy I want to have in the backround. I like hit squads too much to give crafting a full time go but I know full well how important it is going to be in this game. All the PvP kings out there dumping on crafting are all going to be clamouring around people like you when they realise they can't kill dick without a top level weapon from what crafters like you are going to be.
I like your commitment to your playstyle. You would have loved PoTBS.
Here's the thing though. I don't think anybody denies crafting for gear. Yes, I'm going to buy a sword from X, and a hat from Y or whatever.
But it's siegecrafting that is at issue here. Yes, a crafter who makes hammers in the safezone is super important and is fueling the war effort. He only needs 1hp.
But the second you have to drag him out to RVR, considerations have to be made. It would be great if they got "base" combat skills, and then all their advancement was crafting related with minor utility (traps, escapes, whatever) - rather than just "lol I'm a crafter! guide me out there!"
Unless groups can have a 'reserve' spot to drag a crafter around, I want to see them provide benefit to the group in all scenarios - not just when we need you to hump a wall until it's repaired, or to build us a fort.
Do crafters really want to stand around and watch other people siege a keep? Plopping down a ram and a trebuchet...that's all you want to do?
Now, you should NOT *have* to contribute in RVR/siege - banging away on swords should be more than enough. But surely having the option isn't bad.
Crafter Combat utility is a great discussion point. Do they go so far as to make them the Engineer from TF2? Makes every one else fight better and kills with their own creations or another pure healer who heals buildings instead of people and auto attacks?
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Then don't waste a spot in the group. That's part of what makes it interesting. Trade offs and choices. To do otherwise will just make this like all those other games. In that case, people should just stay with the games we have and devs should never make another game. Do you want something different or more of the same?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
I hope that will NOT be the case, and that only crafters will be able to gather resources. If non-crafters can gather anything, it should be only the most basic resources that might require larger volumes.
The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around. Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char?
Welcome Home
Rev.
Well, we have yet to see how it's done, but the gameplay of crafting will be planned to be fun to play, so i wouldn't worry about that, as a RvR player will be more inclined to do a crafter if it's not "hit a button and wait for the green bar to fill".
Lots of people seem to not want a combat role. I will be looking to them to stand around while my guild fights the enemy.http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
I don't see how it's "other". It's just the "let any class be crafter" option.
Besides, they already have the choice "do i go fully into crafting skills or do i do a fighter with just enough smithing to maintain my gear ?"
I'm not sold on the idea of a dedicated crafter class, but I'm openminded so I look forward to being impressed
I have no problem picturing a scenario that works (crafters building/operating things while the other classes protect them). What I am worried about are the scenarios that do not work well, and I think it is very important (for developers) to explore the "worst case scenarios" because there are bound to be some pitfalls.
What happens when a lone TDD crafter who is out to gather materials encounters a lone Viking crafter doing the same? My guess would be /dance /dance /dance which might sound cute, but it would be against the spirit of the game. Even if they could poke each other with a stick, would they really be interested in a long fight when they share a common interest (to gather materials)?
MJ mentioned in the last update that a smart crafter would have some sort of defense, thought most of the time would be running from the enemy. To me this sounds like "setting up" Since you can craft siege and "traps" then maybe the crafting class will be able to set up some Auto Turrets and traps wherever he is going to harvest. This reminds me of Animists. If you caught an animist out in the open before he set up you could easily kill him, but if you tried to kill an animist set up with a ton of shrooms at a choke point you'd probably insta die. Or another example is Thid Siege. If a thid player set up that uber gun siege then they'd pretty much 2 shot you if you got close to them. Sure stealthers could still sneak up and kill the person but most visibles were toast.
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Given the 100% player driven economy concept (mentioned by MJ in videos and noted by a few others but seemingly forgotten by many) I personally think a crafter class makes perfect sense. Perhaps there could even be siege equipment (traps excluded) that only crafters can use? Or in addition to repairing siege equipment on the battlefield they will get additional defensive capabilities beyond traps to bolster the overall defenses of the sieging party. I suppose if you wish to have guildies somehow feed you materials all day long and just park yourself at a forge to craft armor/weapons you would be useful but given the PvP focus it seems like you would be missing out on some fun and some of your potential usefulness. I can even see them as a potential utility class for roaming combat and/or as bait for "fishing" (which I think was mentioned somewhere in the previous 9 pages).
Yes, I'm sick of MMOs tacking on crafting and then trying to make it "fun" and/or "useful". For me its always some PITA thing I'm forced to do because my toon is better off with it skilled up.
So it being a seperate class or a sub class which has some combat/non crafting orientated alternatives is perfect.
In my retarded brain, so this may end off-topic, I see a crafter as what the name implies. They make all the materials and items the warriors/raiders need. They are able to build roads, camps and something that resembles cities, at the same time producing weapons, food and armour.
If you, for example, find a place, where there’s a lot of iron, cobber or whatever, the crafter could set up a camp with help from a guild, which protects the crafters while they a putting up palisades, and so on. When it’s done, then the crafters build a road that connects the camp to another place, so it’s possible for people to take a horse to it, bringing the travel time to the place down. Then the crafter builds some shops, so people will come and trade, at the same time binding the crafter, and only the crafter, to the place, so he get ressed at the place. Then more crafters arrives, because of the cheap iron, who all needs to be protected. The camp needs to expand now, and something that resembles a city takes form. All the time the place needs to be protected by people, so the place doesn’t get raided and burned down. If you lose the place, the price of iron, or whatever mineral there is, goes up, meaning that weapons and armour becomes more expensive. Because the material you use has to come from someplace.
Crafters are also the only way to get siege weapons, and are the only ones able to build them near the enemy camps. Only they should be able to use siege weaponry that shoots stuff against enemies and their walls. They are able to build rams, ladders and portable towers so the fighters (who have trained all their life for warfare) are able to get through the palisades/walls, and only the crafters should be able to repair the items. They could also set up a camp for prolonged siege/raid, making them able to both sabotage and build roads. Meaning that the longer the road, the more protection it needs, so people are able to travel faster to the battle, if they are so unlucky to get murdered.
I don’t see crafters as someone that are able defend themselves in a 1v1 against any of the other classes. They can have a lot of hp and defensive abilities, but in my view, the focus should be on the crafting war-material and on the “housing” ability, and not close combat. They could have some helpers (meaning NPC’s), which are able to harass the opposition (or even mine for that matter), but only if the enemies gets close to the area where the crafter has set up shop. These NPC’s could cost an amount of money daily, so there’s a reason to craft and sell stuff.
This would give a meaning to RvR, because if you could harass the opposition’s ability to create good quality weaponry or even just armour that looks awesome, then there would be reason to attack and defend a specific place, since as far as i know, items decay when used. Also if you raided such a place, you should be able to loot the items that the crafters had in their store.
This is my view on how a dedicated crafter’s role in RvR should be, if it’s even remotely possible make it work in a game, I don’t know. Also English is not my first language, so apologize if some of the sentences aren’t grammatically correct…
Basic combat skills with utility would go a long way.
I know plenty of people who would enjoy being a crafter....assuming we had room in a group for one.
If they are as useless as people want I will enjoy leveling far faster than groups with a crafter ;/
With so few classes per realm on launch I think it's a poor idea.
it should be held off to be an added class, not to mention it is going to use up lot of manpower to implement as envisioned
Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected. I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction. It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.
"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980
"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
- Gen. George S. Patton, USA
If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history. If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article. As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.
Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat. Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife? Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense. Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon. A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless. All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives. A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.
“My logisticians are a humorless lot . . . they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
- Alexander The Great, http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun08/jitime_vs_jicase.html
Crafting isn't for you? That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.
If the crafter class is the only one that can craft weapons/armor/ or items of any sort then yes a crafter class is amazing and makes a big difference. I'm also hoping that items lose max durability when they are repaired, then you could allow the player crafters to repair aswell but if you get it done by a crafter it accualy loses less max durability then if you have it done by a NPC, thus crafting an economy, and obviously if they reach 0 durability they are destroyed completly. You can have NPC merchants who have basic items but the crafters make anything beyond basic items and the NPCs can give the crafters Contracts to gather this much Wood/Ore/Leather and bring it to them for XP and Gold, so they have their own questing, aswell as have Apprenticeships so the crafters have to Craft items with certain Durability and turn them in to the NPCs in order to continue training in a specific crafting field.( Example. You can only get Blacksmithing to 25 skill untill you complete a Apprenticeship from a Black smith which then lets you go up to 50 in blacksmithing, etc. )
Honoestly I dont believe crafters should have any combat abilitys, but give them the option to hire mercenarys or some sort of NPC hirelings to go out in the field with them and protect them for a certain amount of time while gathering resources, or if they have friends online they can pay/get players to protect them while they are out gathering.
Crafting is a huge part of an MMO and I've played a couple small games where I was a Merchant class that couldnt even engage in combat but was the only one that could craft, its great fun, and all the things I've brought up were part of those games and it worked great. Other players love you for making them gear, repairing their stuff and they helped bring you mats you couldnt easily get yourself for discounts on goods, was easy to make a name for yourself and have a customer base, I would love to see this in a big time MMO.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
I just want to make sure it's more army corps of engineers than Bob the builder
I posted this in another thread about crafters and it looks like other people in this thread have mentioned similar things, but yea...
You know what I was just thinking about with crafters, I know they aren't combat oriented at all and I'm not asking for that, but it would be cool if they could make traps and stuff, would be defensive stuff that would allow them to get away. could be pretty unique.
They could go crazy and allow crafters to be like engineers from warhammer with turrets and things but I'm pretty sure they don't want to go that route, but traps and defensive things could be cool.
They don't necessarily need to be "combat" at all, just some traps or defensive stuff that allows them to contribute and possibly get away, I'm sure they will still need protecting from their realm, but if they get lost or fall behind they will have at least some chance of getting away, or holding out for a short time for their group to reach them if they aren't too far away.
Be a cool way for them to contribute to RvR in another way other than just building, crafting, and repairing stuff.
Being non combat these things they could do would do little or no damage at all, could just be traps that provide types of CC possible, like snares, roots, whatever so the crafter can get away.
Could be other defensive things or group based things that possibly buff, cleanse, and heal friendly players.
Or if you wanted to swing the other direction they could also debuff, damage, poison, CC, etc enemy players, like turrets, traps whatever.
Some of these things could be invisible to enemy players, and you could make it a meta game against crafters or possibly stealthers and archers from enemy realms that could disarm these traps and things if they have a high enough skill to detect them since they would normally be invisible to enemy players.
Lots of ideas swirling in my head about this at the moment.
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I intend to play a dedicated crafter in CU. I also expect to get my arse beat if I run across a single fighting class from an opposing faction. The fact that by swinging my hammer to make blades makes me quite strong, it does not offer me the fighting prowess to stand toe to toe with a martial master. Not in any way. I expect that I will need protection. If I venture out alone, I risk being spotted and uncerimoniously beheaded. But I am fine with this. This will force me to interact with my fellow realm mates for protection. And I think that's a good thing.
Thats not to say I wouldn't mind a stun or something that I have a chance at hitting with that will help me escape. But I don't think it shuld be much.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. ~Declaration of Arbroath
I'm kinda on the fence about this being a good idea, let alone being implemented right.
I love the idea that a specific Craft line will be able to build kool stuff for rvr and housing. However, if that class cant atleast hold its own somewhat in pvp I dont really see a point to it at all. It is a pvp game.
They did mention that a skilled crafter will give a(average?) pvp class player a run for his money. That sounds like a lot of effort in the end for little payoff.
Basically I feel theres a lot of ways for this design to get screwed up completely along the way. The best bet is to just let everybody be able to have max Siegecraft so that anybody willing to take the time to craft will be able to make awesome stuff for rvr. Or dont make Crafter classes a notch down from pvp classes.
hm this gives me idea - what if crafter would not have much of a fighting skill, but a LOT of hps?
Excellent Post. Tell me your in Alpha as you're the guy I want to have in the backround. I like hit squads too much to give crafting a full time go but I know full well how important it is going to be in this game. All the PvP kings out there dumping on crafting are all going to be clamouring around people like you when they realise they can't kill dick without a top level weapon from what crafters like you are going to be.
I like your commitment to your playstyle. You would have loved PoTBS.
DAOC - Krullen - Hero/Tristan
Here's the thing though. I don't think anybody denies crafting for gear. Yes, I'm going to buy a sword from X, and a hat from Y or whatever.
But it's siegecrafting that is at issue here. Yes, a crafter who makes hammers in the safezone is super important and is fueling the war effort. He only needs 1hp.
But the second you have to drag him out to RVR, considerations have to be made. It would be great if they got "base" combat skills, and then all their advancement was crafting related with minor utility (traps, escapes, whatever) - rather than just "lol I'm a crafter! guide me out there!"
Unless groups can have a 'reserve' spot to drag a crafter around, I want to see them provide benefit to the group in all scenarios - not just when we need you to hump a wall until it's repaired, or to build us a fort.
Do crafters really want to stand around and watch other people siege a keep? Plopping down a ram and a trebuchet...that's all you want to do?
Now, you should NOT *have* to contribute in RVR/siege - banging away on swords should be more than enough. But surely having the option isn't bad.
DAOC - Krullen - Hero/Tristan