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Does a crafter class really make sense?

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  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222

    Originally posted by Arbroath
    MJ has mentioned that he would like to have many character slots available for alts. My concern is that even though your characters can't have great fighting and crafter skills, what stops everyone from making a crafter alt and saturating the class? I definately plan on playing a crafter as my main and worry about becoming just another crafter like the 1000s of alt crafters that will be out there. Making me obsolete like every other game I've played.

    You won't have to worry about that. If you go read the Foundational Principle on crafting again, MJ said you won't be able to drop some gold on an alt and have a good crafter in no time, but than getting a high level of craft would take as much time as getting a high level fighter.

    Originally posted by belatucadros

    Originally posted by Daizedd

    The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

     

    edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

    I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

    However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

    If you look at it another way, did you ever see a group with no dps, or no healer, or mostly composed of pure healer (that can't DPS)? Did you ever see a visible group with a stealther?

     

    No, unless there really is a lack of players. Or in a zerg. If you want to play a stealther, then the visible groups won't take you. And you have to play in a certain way. Why would you need it different with crafters? If you take your stealther, you go for the stealth war, waiting a ton to find an opening, and then hope you didn't missed something that will kill you. If you have a crafter, you go for keep fights, you help defend/attack the door, walls, drop and disable traps, making/using siege weapons.

     

    About the bot, crafting will probably require to be actively doing something, so it would be like having a bard bot (speed and CC class) and a caster. You can do it but you won't be able to play both at the same time.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,177
    Originally posted by Caldrin

    yup sounds good to me...

    The crafter class can also be in a fight as well and will play a key role in the battlefield..

    It also sounded to me in the main video that other classes could craft as well but just basic stuff.. still will have to wait and see.

    Agreed, The mention of a crafter class is what actually made me start taking a real interest in this game.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ThedrizzleThedrizzle Member Posts: 322
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I say let the crafter build a laser they can mount on their head, I'd let them in my group at that point.

    Seriously give crafters a single powerful weapon only they can fire, put it on a long cool down but give em something.

    Just because they like to craft doesn't mean they can't at least fire a weapon once in a while.

    Bringing a class that can't compete in a competitive RvR game makes no sense.

     

    Agreed.. If a player somehow signs a pact to be a professional crafter, they should be able to hold a skill like an AOE Silence/Mez that will give them the ability to escape. Have it on a 15 min cooldown or something like that.

    Maybe an AOE earthquake spell that knocks down all enemies in such a radius, but can only be used in while harvesting or in harvesting areas

  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by belatucadros
    Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

    Originally posted by Arbroath
    MJ has mentioned that he would like to have many character slots available for alts. My concern is that even though your characters can't have great fighting and crafter skills, what stops everyone from making a crafter alt and saturating the class? I definately plan on playing a crafter as my main and worry about becoming just another crafter like the 1000s of alt crafters that will be out there. Making me obsolete like every other game I've played.

    You won't have to worry about that. If you go read the Foundational Principle on crafting again, MJ said you won't be able to drop some gold on an alt and have a good crafter in no time, but than getting a high level of craft would take as much time as getting a high level fighter.

    Originally posted by belatucadros

    Originally posted by Daizedd

    The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

     

    edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

    I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

    However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

    If you look at it another way, did you ever see a group with no dps, or no healer, or mostly composed of pure healer (that can't DPS)? Did you ever see a visible group with a stealther?

     

    No, unless there really is a lack of players. Or in a zerg. If you want to play a stealther, then the visible groups won't take you. And you have to play in a certain way. Why would you need it different with crafters? If you take your stealther, you go for the stealth war, waiting a ton to find an opening, and then hope you didn't missed something that will kill you. If you have a crafter, you go for keep fights, you help defend/attack the door, walls, drop and disable traps, making/using siege weapons.

     

    About the bot, crafting will probably require to be actively doing something, so it would be like having a bard bot (speed and CC class) and a caster. You can do it but you won't be able to play both at the same time.

    it's not about playing both. It's about having the ability to do high level crafting when required, without wasting a slot in our group for it ;

    If you want to do some craft, then it isn't a waste. You are not roaming, you are protecting a defenseless player while he is crafting.

     

    It's about working together for the realm, isn't that the core idea of RvR? Each player have his role that only him can do. It's part of the strategy to cope with any drawback it'll bring to us. If you are worried about not being able to deal with another group, then be the group attacking the other realms.

  • TumblebutzTumblebutz Member UncommonPosts: 322

    You guys are trying desperately to mash this crafter idea into the DAoC concept.  This game will NOT be DAoC... it may have some similarities, but it will NOT be exactly the same.  Trying to comprehend how the Crafter would work in DAoC is just silly.

    I really think we all need to be patient and see what the game design allows, encourages and focuses on before you can start trash talking a class.

    @Xobdnas: If you recall in DAoC, you could not log out in the Frontiers and then log back in in the same spot... you would be teleported to your realms Portal Keep.  I don't know if this effect will carry over into CU but my guess is that it will.

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Originally posted by belatucadros
    Originally posted by Daizedd
    Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

    I think this would be a big mistake.

    Yes, you should absolutely NOT have to engage in combat- but considering it's an actual class, I think base combat is OK. Considering the lateral advancement(probably?) this could work well.

     

    But nobody wants to waste a group slot on someone who can't contribute to the battle untill we siege a keep. And as fun as escorting crafters to/from a siege is, it'd be nice if you could bring someone without without carrying them.

     

    edit: fixed a slip that changed the entire post aha.

     Then don't waste a spot in the group.  That's part of what makes it interesting.  Trade offs and choices.  To do otherwise will just make this like all those other games.   In that case, people should just stay with the games we have and devs should never make another game.  Do you want something different or more of the same?

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  • DaizeddDaizedd Member Posts: 142
    Originally posted by belatucadros
    I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

    I hope that will NOT be the case, and that only crafters will be able to gather resources. If non-crafters can gather anything,  it should be only the most basic resources that might require larger volumes.

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  • revslaverevslave Member UncommonPosts: 154

    The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around.  Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char? 

     

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  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by revslave

    The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around.  Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char? 

     

    Welcome Home

    Rev.

    Well, we have yet to see how it's done, but the gameplay of crafting will be planned to be fun to play, so i wouldn't worry about that, as a RvR player will be more inclined to do a crafter if it's not "hit a button and wait for the green bar to fill".

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Member Posts: 263
    Originally posted by revslave

    The only real issues is if the crafter class becomes a 'Buff-Bot" that people level up on a second acount and have follow them around.  Sure a sub-population will enjoy playing a pure crafting char, but will a significant number of people find it enjoyable enogh to make it their main char?  Welcome HomeRev.

     

    Lots of people seem to not want a combat role. I will be looking to them to stand around while my guild fights the enemy.

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
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  • wordizwordiz Member Posts: 464
    Other. A person should be able to skill up a craft just like a weapon skill. This gives the the player a choice. They can go fully into crafting skills if they want to be a full crafter, or just enough smithing to maintain their gear.
  • ZiftylrhavicZiftylrhavic Member Posts: 222
    Originally posted by wordiz
    Other. A person should be able to skill up a craft just like a weapon skill. This gives the the player a choice. They can go fully into crafting skills if they want to be a full crafter, or just enough smithing to maintain their gear.

    I don't see how it's "other". It's just the "let any class be crafter" option.

     

    Besides, they already have the choice "do i go fully into crafting skills or do i do a fighter with just enough smithing to maintain my gear ?"

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,293


    Originally posted by Hatefull
    Originally posted by Caldrin yup sounds good to me... The crafter class can also be in a fight as well and will play a key role in the battlefield.. It also sounded to me in the main video that other classes could craft as well but just basic stuff.. still will have to wait and see.
    Agreed, The mention of a crafter class is what actually made me start taking a real interest in this game.

    /agree

    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • audizmannaudizmann Member Posts: 24

    I'm not sold on the idea of a dedicated crafter class, but I'm openminded so I look forward to being impressed :)

     

    I have no problem picturing a scenario that works (crafters building/operating things while the other classes protect them). What I am worried about are the scenarios that do not work well, and I think it is very important (for developers) to explore the "worst case scenarios" because there are bound to be some pitfalls.

     

    What happens when a lone TDD crafter who is out to gather materials encounters a lone Viking crafter doing the same? My guess would be /dance /dance /dance which might sound cute, but it would be against the spirit of the game. Even if they could poke each other with a stick, would they really be interested in a long fight when they share a common interest (to gather materials)?

  • fanglofanglo Member UncommonPosts: 306
    Originally posted by audizmann

    I'm not sold on the idea of a dedicated crafter class, but I'm openminded so I look forward to being impressed :)

     

    I have no problem picturing a scenario that works (crafters building/operating things while the other classes protect them). What I am worried about are the scenarios that do not work well, and I think it is very important (for developers) to explore the "worst case scenarios" because there are bound to be some pitfalls.

     

    What happens when a lone TDD crafter who is out to gather materials encounters a lone Viking crafter doing the same? My guess would be /dance /dance /dance which might sound cute, but it would be against the spirit of the game. Even if they could poke each other with a stick, would they really be interested in a long fight when they share a common interest (to gather materials)?

    MJ mentioned in the last update that a smart crafter would have some sort of defense, thought most of the time would be running from the enemy. To me this sounds like "setting up" Since you can craft siege and "traps" then maybe the crafting class will be able to set up some Auto Turrets and traps wherever he is going to harvest. This reminds me of Animists. If you caught an animist out in the open before he set up you could easily kill him, but if you tried to kill an animist set up with a ton of shrooms at a choke point you'd probably insta die. Or another example is Thid Siege. If a thid player set up that uber gun siege then they'd pretty much 2 shot you if you got close to them. Sure stealthers could still sneak up and kill the person but most visibles were toast.

     

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  • TroianmanTroianman Member Posts: 82

    Given the 100% player driven economy concept (mentioned by MJ in videos and noted by a few others but seemingly forgotten by many) I personally think a crafter class makes perfect sense. Perhaps there could even be siege equipment (traps excluded) that only crafters can use? Or in addition to repairing siege equipment on the battlefield they will get additional defensive capabilities beyond traps to bolster the overall defenses of the sieging party.  I suppose if you wish to have guildies somehow feed you materials all day long and just park yourself at a forge to craft armor/weapons you would be useful but given the PvP focus it seems like you would be missing out on some fun and some of your potential usefulness. I can even see them as a potential utility class for roaming combat and/or as bait for "fishing" (which I think was mentioned somewhere in the previous 9 pages).

  • zekuelzekuel Member UncommonPosts: 39
    Maybe in the higher tiers of crafting they can have combat abilities. I mean if your swinging a hammer at a forge all day you could probably pound someone pretty good. If your brewing potions all day you could make some nasty bombs/ poisons. Offer some combat abilities that the first tier that everyone can lv up does not.
  • Teh_AxiTeh_Axi Member UncommonPosts: 380

    Yes, I'm sick of MMOs tacking on crafting and then trying to make it "fun" and/or "useful". For me its always some PITA thing I'm forced to do because my toon is better off with it skilled up.

    So it being a seperate class or a sub class which has some combat/non crafting orientated alternatives is perfect.

  • davurdavur Member Posts: 4

    In my retarded brain, so this may end off-topic, I see a crafter as what the name implies. They make all the materials and items the warriors/raiders need. They are able to build roads, camps and something that resembles cities, at the same time producing weapons, food and armour.

    If you, for example, find a place, where there’s a lot of iron, cobber or whatever, the crafter could set up a camp with help from a guild, which protects the crafters while they a putting up palisades, and so on. When it’s done, then the crafters build a road that connects the camp to another place, so it’s possible for people to take a horse to it, bringing the travel time to the place down. Then the crafter builds some shops, so people will come and trade, at the same time binding the crafter, and only the crafter, to the place, so he get ressed at the place. Then more crafters arrives, because of the cheap iron, who all needs to be protected. The camp needs to expand now, and something that resembles a city takes form. All the time the place needs to be protected by people, so the place doesn’t get raided and burned down. If you lose the place, the price of iron, or whatever mineral there is, goes up, meaning that weapons and armour becomes more expensive. Because the material you use has to come from someplace.

    Crafters are also the only way to get siege weapons, and are the only ones able to build them near the enemy camps. Only they should be able to use siege weaponry that shoots stuff against enemies and their walls. They are able to build rams, ladders and portable towers so the fighters (who have trained all their life for warfare) are able to get through the palisades/walls, and only the crafters should be able to repair the items. They could also set up a camp for prolonged siege/raid, making them able to both sabotage and build roads. Meaning that the longer the road, the more protection it needs, so people are able to travel faster to the battle, if they are so unlucky to get murdered.

    I don’t see crafters as someone that are able defend themselves in a 1v1 against any of the other classes. They can have a lot of hp and defensive abilities, but in my view, the focus should be on the crafting war-material and on the “housing” ability, and not close combat. They could have some helpers (meaning NPC’s), which are able to harass the opposition (or even mine for that matter), but only if the enemies gets close to the area where the crafter has set up shop. These NPC’s could cost an amount of money daily, so there’s a reason to craft and sell stuff.

    This would give a meaning to RvR, because if you could harass the opposition’s ability to create good quality weaponry or even just armour that looks awesome, then there would be reason to attack and defend a specific place, since as far as i know, items decay when used. Also if you raided such a place, you should be able to loot the items that the crafters had in their store.

    This is my view on how a dedicated crafter’s role in RvR should be, if it’s even remotely possible make it work in a game, I don’t know. Also English is not my first language, so apologize if some of the sentences aren’t grammatically correct…

  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Member Posts: 263
    Nothing says a crafter has to rvr...but they should be able to.

    Basic combat skills with utility would go a long way.

    I know plenty of people who would enjoy being a crafter....assuming we had room in a group for one.

    If they are as useless as people want I will enjoy leveling far faster than groups with a crafter ;/

    Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
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  • naezgulnaezgul Member Posts: 374

    With so few classes per realm on launch I think it's a poor idea.

    it should be held off to be an added class, not to mention it is going to use up lot of manpower to implement as envisioned

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,293

    Not only is the builder concept a good idea, but it makes CU unique, evolves what a "crafter" in an MMO has to be, and is one of the most exciting features MJ has mentioned. Crafted economy, builders on the front lines, running down a defenseless builder with my warrior, ah good stuff.

    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • MellowTiggerMellowTigger Member UncommonPosts: 84

    Players who dismiss crafting in favor of "real" combat classes just display only their own ignorance, easily corrected.  I very much like the metaphors that people have already offered: the workers in Civiliation, or the miner in Warcraft. People have lazily grown accustomed to combat with magically-infinite resources and magically-immediate construction.  It's long past time to take war simulation to the next level.

    "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
    - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

    "Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
    - Gen. George S. Patton, USA

    If you like that quote, then read these many others by military leaders throughout history.  If you're not convinced of the importance of logistics to military combat (even in simulation), then try this longer article.  As a long-time crafter in many games, I look forward to finally ditching direct engagement in favor of behind-the-scenes support.

    Just as ignorant are the cries that crafters must never enter combat.  Do you think a farmer with a pitchfork is defenseless, or a blacksmith with a hammer, or a chef with a butcher knife, or an herbalist with a paring knife?  Your combat-offense fixation has totally blinded you to combat-defense.  Time spent learning a tool is valuable, even if it's not intended as a weapon.  A porcupine lives nowhere near the top of the food chain, but it's a dangerous foe to engage 1-on-1 nevertheless.  All a crafter has to do is delay his own death by deterring his opponent from landing a killing blow... until the actual cavalry arrives.  A crafter isn't a soldier, but neither is he the helpless civilian that you want to imagine.

    “My logisticians are a humorless lot . . . they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
    - Alexander The Great, http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/MayJun08/jitime_vs_jicase.html

    Crafting isn't for you?  That's fine and good, but please stop trying to suppress an historically vital aspect of combat for those players with the mental focus and attention to detail that it requires.

  • KalafaxKalafax Member UncommonPosts: 562

    If the crafter class is the only one that can craft weapons/armor/ or items of any sort then yes a crafter class is amazing and makes a big difference. I'm also hoping that items lose max durability when they are repaired, then you could allow the player crafters to repair aswell but if you get it done by a crafter it accualy loses less max durability then if you have it done by a NPC, thus crafting an economy, and obviously if they reach 0 durability they are destroyed completly. You can have NPC merchants who have basic items but the crafters make anything beyond basic items and the NPCs can give the crafters Contracts to gather this much Wood/Ore/Leather and bring it to them for XP and Gold, so they have their own questing, aswell as have Apprenticeships so the crafters have to Craft items with certain Durability and turn them in to the NPCs in order to continue training in a specific crafting field.( Example. You can only get Blacksmithing to 25 skill untill you complete a Apprenticeship from a Black smith which then lets you go up to 50 in blacksmithing, etc. )

    Honoestly I dont believe crafters should have any combat abilitys, but give them the option to hire mercenarys or some sort of NPC hirelings to go out in the field with them and protect them for a certain amount of time while gathering resources, or if they have friends online they can pay/get players to protect them while they are out gathering.

    Crafting is a huge part of an MMO and I've played a couple small games where I was a Merchant class that couldnt even engage in combat but was the only one that could craft, its great fun, and all the things I've brought up were part of those games and it worked great. Other players love you for making them gear, repairing their stuff and they helped bring you mats you couldnt easily get yourself for discounts on goods, was easy to make a name for yourself and have a customer base, I would love to see this in a big time MMO.

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  • belatucadrosbelatucadros Member Posts: 263
    I don't think anyone is trying to "suppress" crafting.

    I just want to make sure it's more army corps of engineers than Bob the builder

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