Sure, cross-realming has always existed. People paid for multiple accounts, spying did happen, RL friends played separate realms, on and on. However, the community at large was able to widely police such activities so that if somone were caught spying or cross-realming, feeding information to their friends, or were known to play an ALT against their realm - their realm pretty much excluded them (on both realms).
There were no more group invites, private forum access was removed, even some guild removals, crafters would no longer sell to them, no help for them in RvR. So yes, cross-realming exisited, but on my old servers it was harshly punished if you were caught (which was ultimately inevitable). It wasn't worth it to screw over your own realm for personal gain. At all.
Many times those players ended up alienating themselves from the community to the point that they re-rolled and started all over again on a new server since they could no longer get anywhere.
None of these actions required Dev Forums or any special treatment. It just took a tight-knit community and a game design that forced that community to come together in order to be successful.
If one bad apple is spoiling the bunch, throw it out.
...
Do you know what a "Griefer" is?
Everything you say sounds great - but in practice doesn't work quite so cleanly.
You get griefers who simply don't care. You get PKers who group up and enjoy being 'outlaws'.
You get paranoia - which is often more destuctive than the griefers, PKers and spies combined.
And you get a major headache for developers - since players who are NOT cross realmers and 'multis' get mistaken for such and have their game experience ruined by the 'community' - which becomes a big deal when people are actually paying to play.
using DAOC as an example, how woud you "grief" someone? who would be an "outlaw"? There's no such thing a "PKers" in an RVR game. Everyone's killing.
Poor guy has such a limited and angry world view. I am not sure we can make him understand.
As a matter of interest, here's what Mark commented in another thread about their plans for official forums:
"If the Kickstarter is successful we will have:
1) Backers Forums - Open only to backers where they can interact with the developers. Feed them, pet them and if they throw enough peanuts, we'll learn some tricks! These will be, as the name implies, open to the backers only and subject, of course, to NDA. I've already told the team that I expect all of them to be there, right along with me, talking and getting feedback especially once testing begins.
2) Offical forums at launch - Yep.
I plan on being my usual hyperactive self on forums (gee, like tonight where it's 2:40 and I've been posting here, Massively, Keen & Graev and YouTube) since I saw the Wizards beat the Knicks) and doing some of the things I did in the past but I also have some new ideas and some old ones as well.
3) As to place like MMORPG, my usual rules apply. As long as stuff stays nive and civil, I'll happly post and continue the feedback loop with the community. In terms of the site itself, well, MMORPG has been kind enough to care what I'm doing and I'm happy to reciprocate. I've always liked talking in places like this I just don't want to have to deal with hate/personal attacks/lies/etc. I won't hate on other developers, other games, posters (almost never other than my infamous "Have a cookie" line) and I simply ask the same in return. I want to hear feedback on my/our ideas, even if it's negative, I just don't want to have to fight a war over an idea or put into the position of having to answer the same question (or worse, attack) again and again. "
I can understand concerns about what happens with no developer forums when random fan forums struggle to keep a community moving in the right direction...but my experience with DAoC (which I keep referencing, but it is after all the reason for my interest in this project) leads me to believe that the developers will be extremely pro-active in considering and responding to community concerns and problems which arise. Which is one of the reasons I am not terribly concerned with cross-realming spoiling gameplay, or about unreasonable restrictions being placed on account ownership. I believe that these developers fully intend to 1. make a game that is a heck of a lot of fun, and 2. treat the people who play it with respect.
Sure, cross-realming has always existed. People paid for multiple accounts, spying did happen, RL friends played separate realms, on and on. However, the community at large was able to widely police such activities so that if somone were caught spying or cross-realming, feeding information to their friends, or were known to play an ALT against their realm - their realm pretty much excluded them (on both realms).
There were no more group invites, private forum access was removed, even some guild removals, crafters would no longer sell to them, no help for them in RvR. So yes, cross-realming exisited, but on my old servers it was harshly punished if you were caught (which was ultimately inevitable). It wasn't worth it to screw over your own realm for personal gain. At all.
Many times those players ended up alienating themselves from the community to the point that they re-rolled and started all over again on a new server since they could no longer get anywhere.
None of these actions required Dev Forums or any special treatment. It just took a tight-knit community and a game design that forced that community to come together in order to be successful.
If one bad apple is spoiling the bunch, throw it out.
...
Do you know what a "Griefer" is? - Yes, I do. And...?
Everything you say sounds great - but in practice doesn't work quite so cleanly. - I disagree, while it isn't and wasn't perfect, it was a system that was damned hard to abuse. You may want to grief someone or see them run out of the community because you don't agree with them, but getting others to climb aboard your ass-hat train isn't (and wasn't) as easy as you would think. Everything balanced out, and having those decisions rest in the hands of the community at large was a far better system than allowing them to get away with whatever antics led them to be ex-communicated anyway.
I don't see someone rolling with a 40-man group to hit a PvE dungeon like Molten Core and running away with all of the loot while laughing his ass off at the rest of the people he just stole from, since the first time would most likely be the last time when it comes to that type of behavior if you give the community a say.
Also, scamming did occur, but people were also warned when it came to dealing with a potential scammer so that they could make an informed choice. I prefer it that way, I'm a big girl now and would like the option to make up my own mind.
You get griefers who simply don't care. You get PKers who group up and enjoy being 'outlaws'. - Yes, but again, what is the point? In an RvR centric game, we are ALL PKers. In this game, you cannot 'PK' your own realm mates per MJ's previous comments in interviews, so how does this even apply? I expect my enemy to kill me, and I will do my best to destroy them. Red is dead.
You get paranoia - which is often more destuctive than the griefers, PKers and spies combined. - It's called politics and intrigue, and can make for some of the best game-play and storylines ever conceivved. It also isn't as prevalent as you would think.
And you get a major headache for developers - since players who are NOT cross realmers and 'multis' get mistaken for such and have their game experience ruined by the 'community' - which becomes a big deal when people are actually paying to play. - The developer has zero responsibility to hold a players hand who is having a hard time integrating with their realm / community. The developer has the responsibility to develop their game, and to give the players the tools and resources they see fit to give. If someone finds themselves ostracized from a fairly large community of potenitally thousands of fellow players, perhaps they should ask themselves why and work on their social skills. There is also, just like in DAoC beforehand, the option to move servers or to re-roll.
Choices matter. Actions have consequences. Not every consequence will be pretty, but it should ultimately make you a smarter player, and it makes for a stronger more cohesive realm.
Sounds like a stretch goal. Design a system where you can send NPCs spies to other realms to search out activity. Obviously have some way to kill the enemy NPCs and have various degrees of difficulty. Or just accept people are going to X-realm.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
And you get a major headache for developers - since players who are NOT cross realmers and 'multis' get mistaken for such and have their game experience ruined by the 'community' - which becomes a big deal when people are actually paying to play. - The developer has zero responsibility to hold a players hand who is having a hard time integrating with their realm / community. The developer has the responsibility to develop their game, and to give the players the tools and resources they see fit to give. If someone finds themselves ostracized from a fairly large community of potenitally thousands of fellow players, perhaps they should ask themselves why and work on their social skills. There is also, just like in DAoC beforehand, the option to move servers or to re-roll.
Choices matter. Actions have consequences. Not every consequence will be pretty, but it should ultimately make you a smarter player, and it makes for a stronger more cohesive realm.
Of all the things you said - the quote above is the most interesting.
You are correct - the developer does have "zero responsibility to hold a players hand who is having a hard time integrating with their realm / community" and for their part players are not obliged to continue to pay a sub.
In fact the last part "Actions have consequences." is word for word from the browser based RvR game I play. In that game the argument "it should ultimately make you a smarter player, and it makes for a stronger more cohesive realm." was used by players to justify completely destroying one of the realms to the point where even the other realms now take pity on us and won't even fight us... since we have lost the ability to defend ourselves.
You don't need to have several account to go to the winner side. Just go to several servers, even if there are only 3 different, you would need to be unlucky (around 1 out of 3.5 chances) to not have one of them dominating, and even unluckier (1 out of 27 chances) to always be one the weakest side. And DAoC had more than 3 servers, so we can hope CU will too.
Comments
Poor guy has such a limited and angry world view. I am not sure we can make him understand.
As a matter of interest, here's what Mark commented in another thread about their plans for official forums:
"If the Kickstarter is successful we will have:
1) Backers Forums - Open only to backers where they can interact with the developers. Feed them, pet them and if they throw enough peanuts, we'll learn some tricks!
These will be, as the name implies, open to the backers only and subject, of course, to NDA. I've already told the team that I expect all of them to be there, right along with me, talking and getting feedback especially once testing begins.
2) Offical forums at launch - Yep.
I plan on being my usual hyperactive self on forums (gee, like tonight where it's 2:40 and I've been posting here, Massively, Keen & Graev and YouTube) since I saw the Wizards beat the Knicks) and doing some of the things I did in the past but I also have some new ideas and some old ones as well.
3) As to place like MMORPG, my usual rules apply. As long as stuff stays nive and civil, I'll happly post and continue the feedback loop with the community. In terms of the site itself, well, MMORPG has been kind enough to care what I'm doing and I'm happy to reciprocate. I've always liked talking in places like this I just don't want to have to deal with hate/personal attacks/lies/etc. I won't hate on other developers, other games, posters (almost never other than my infamous "Have a cookie" line) and I simply ask the same in return. I want to hear feedback on my/our ideas, even if it's negative, I just don't want to have to fight a war over an idea or put into the position of having to answer the same question (or worse, attack) again and again. "
[General Discussion « Camelot Unchained 2/07/13 1:53:32 AM]
I can understand concerns about what happens with no developer forums when random fan forums struggle to keep a community moving in the right direction...but my experience with DAoC (which I keep referencing, but it is after all the reason for my interest in this project) leads me to believe that the developers will be extremely pro-active in considering and responding to community concerns and problems which arise. Which is one of the reasons I am not terribly concerned with cross-realming spoiling gameplay, or about unreasonable restrictions being placed on account ownership. I believe that these developers fully intend to 1. make a game that is a heck of a lot of fun, and 2. treat the people who play it with respect.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
Of all the things you said - the quote above is the most interesting.
You are correct - the developer does have "zero responsibility to hold a players hand who is having a hard time integrating with their realm / community" and for their part players are not obliged to continue to pay a sub.
In fact the last part "Actions have consequences." is word for word from the browser based RvR game I play. In that game the argument "it should ultimately make you a smarter player, and it makes for a stronger more cohesive realm." was used by players to justify completely destroying one of the realms to the point where even the other realms now take pity on us and won't even fight us... since we have lost the ability to defend ourselves.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.