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Cross Realming
TheConsequent
Member Posts: 51
Any mention yet on how this will be handled? Any thoughts on how it SHOULD be handled?
I prefer one realm per server. No timer. Pick a side and stick with it.
Comments
There's a whole FP #10 devoted to realm, race, class, guild, and server pride. Playing more than one realm on a server seems inconsistent with that. I have taken it for granted that you will only be able to play one realm on a server. You could play a different realm on another server of course. And years down the road there may be a need to do something like clustering in DAOC. But at release? No. One realm per server.
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Let me know if you find a reference. I have read/watched most of what is out there. The realm pride thing def suggests no Xrealming, but was just wondering if I missed confirmation somewhere.
/salute
How about this, who told you there is cross realming? If someone told you this, have them show you the proof. It seems like nobody told you this and you are fishing. In any case, why should we do the work for you?
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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Why so hostile?
I asked a question, and followed up with a request for confirmation if anyone happens across it.
How about that?
Past: WoW, WAR, SWTOR, and too many others
Future: Camelot Unchained
That sounds right. I think I remember seeing it on a video interview somewhere as well.
I loved only one realm per server in pre-cluster DAoC. It's that whole community thing...you really get to know, and depend on, the people in your own realm. Bouncing back and forth would have made for a whole different dynamic...and killed the chance of any realm springing a surprise raid on another. (Yes, I know there are ways around this...multiple accounts, people talking about it in RL, but work with me, here - at least no cross-realming makes it more difficult.)
I loved trying things in different realms, but my buds and I would just get together and decide which server to head to when we wanted to try another realm. Not particularly complicated.
The only thing I would find a big drag would be if there were only one realm per ACCOUNT, ugh. However, before we all start screaming RUN FOR THE HILLS over the mere idea, I would be incredibly surprised to see Mark Jacobs signing off on anything like that - vague memories of video interview where he talked about how much he liked alts, and how incredibly interesting the class interactions were in Dark Age are what make me think that.
I would also be incredibly surprised if they had set anything in stone yet as to how exactly they were going to handle people wanting to try toons in different realms yet, at this early stage.
[edit for clarity]
Ugh.
It's like there has never been a "RvR" PvP game before.
There has.
And there is nothing you can do to stop it... without creating drama and bad feeling.
Why?
I buy an account. I pay for it. I am a paying customer.
I buy a second account. I pay for that too. I am still a paying customer.
I can play each account as I choose. That is what I pay for. And if i cannot play my ALTs on different realms then the value of my Alts is diminished - which is pretty important and ought to be made clear before the Kickstarter too.
And how will you (or the Devs) be able to tell the difference between one guy playing two accounts and / or two members of the same family playing two accounts and / or two roommates / flatmates playing two accounts?
They can't.
But it leads to info sharing? So what are you going to do - ban SKYPE too? Ban people who know each other IRL playing on the same server?
Any RvR + PvP game needs to be robust enough to survive 'cross realming', 'spying' and meta gaming BY DESIGN. (these games have existed for more than a decade)
Because it will happen every time and it is impossible to stop - particularly when people PAY for accounts.
(also some of the reward tiers offer several copies of the game which encourages this further)
Look up Goon Squad vs BOB as a case study - not the only example by any means.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
You are completey correct.
However, I am not sure what you are arguing. If you are arguing that locking an account to one realm per server does not prevent information sharing/cheating/whatever, I agree. However, if you are arguing it has no value at all, I disagree. Such an argument would be akin to the following:
"Police do not prevent or solve all crimes and therefore should not exist."
In short, simply because something is not entirely effective does not make it useless. I believe that locking an account to one realm per server is healthy for a variety of reasons. The most important, in my opinion, is not to prevent cheating, but rather to promote community, a sense of belonging, commitment, and pride. The barrier of purchasing and maintaining other accounts can be overcome, but the odds someone will stick with it when their realm is losing and invest the time and effort in turning that around is greater when it is not so simple to switch sides to that week's victor.
However, I am not sure what you are arguing. If you are arguing that locking an account to one realm per server does not prevent information sharing/cheating/whatever, I agree. However, if you are arguing it has no value at all, I disagree. Such an argument would be akin to the following:
"Police do not prevent or solve all crimes and therefore should not exist."
In short, simply because something is not entirely effective does not make it useless. I believe that locking an account to one realm per server is healthy for a variety of reasons. The most important, in my opinion, is not to prevent cheating, but rather to promote community, a sense of belonging, commitment, and pride. The barrier of purchasing and maintaining other accounts can be overcome, but the odds someone will stick with it when their realm is losing and invest the time and effort in turning that around is greater when it is not so simple to switch sides to that week's victor.
This ^ Repression dosen't help but strengthen the sense of community will. So handel it like in the old DAoC Days, one account per server.
To promote community? From a company that doesn't even have Dev forums?
If you seriously think that one realm per account per server makes people 'man up' then you are mistaken.
Some people stick with it. Most don't. Account restrictions don't matter a damn - well actually that is not quite true - account restrictions contribute to the decision to un-sub.
People who don't like to lose but want to keep playing reroll on the dominant side. Then you end up with servers that are ruled by one side or another.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Unless, of course CSE enforces an artificial population cap of one realm to 33-36% of the overal server population.. which I hope they do.
DAoC has NO FORUMS AT ALL!!!
Yet somehow that game had the tightest community of any game I have ever played. Two words: Realm Pride.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Which sounds like a good idea until you think about it.
I had this discussion 5 years ago with a Fanboi on the FLS forum to do with Pirates of the Burning Seas.
The argument there was that just because each faction could field 25 players (ships) per port battle - didn't mean they actually would (or would be able to).
As it turned out their were port battles where one team was a complete no show. Happened lots actually.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I know a few games that have 'tight' communities.
Travian comes to mind. That game has a very 'tight' community. Tight being horrible, hostile and full of fanbois.
Dev forums serve a purpose: They create a community standard. They do this because that's where the Devs are and the devs can exercise their power there. The players, for their part, see this as the 'official' forum and representative of what the Devs want and expect.
Under those conditions a (the) community learns what is acceptable and what isn't. Interestingly, you will find that after a while the community develop a personality and will start almost policing itself. This is because 'like minded' people come back and others are discouraged because they don't fit in.
That can be a good thing or a bad thing (depending on the Devs and Mods).
Again, looking at Travian, a community where outright rudeness and fanboi-ism is accepted and even encouraged - and guess what? A horrible poorly designed game.
Compare that to WWIIoL (a RvR / PvP game) with a very good community - because the Devs uphold certain standards. Posters are (generally) polite and eloquent.
When the Devs don't have their own forums however, they leave it up to whatever Mods the fan forums have to uphold whatever standards they see fit. It becomes a lottery at this point.
The issue comes when you are actually trying to market a commercial product. You don't want people finding a community full of trash talkers who tell them to "L2P" (Learn to play!). Ask companies like FLS how that works out (Thier own moderators did that)
IIRC didn't STO also have major issues to do with this too?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
My point still stands. Regardless of any examples you may find where a forum coincided with a tight community, DAoC did not have one and had the BEST community of any game I played. BEST is of course subjective but many, many people will at least aknowledge that DAoC had a good community.
Thus DEV FORUMS are not a pre-requisite for a good community.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Keep in mind that - for the beta at least - there will be CSE-managed forums. So I don't know why that even became a discussion.
Yeah, people will have multiple accounts. This did happen in DAOC, but it was a rarity. Hell if you have someone you are friendly with on the other realm you might be able to just ask for info; happened all the time.
Gyrus, I completely agree with your point that any RVR game needs to be robust enough to survive cross realming, etc. And, of course cross-realming is going to happen...and has always happened.
The critical thing...and we're back to what has gotten people excited about this game...is to make that game so cleverly-designed, and with so much depth and constantly-changing interest, that it is more fun to just play it WITH your roomie or your friend on Skype than to try to "work the system" by all the many means available to you as an intelligent human being.
And I strongly suspect that, if this game flies, it will be extremely cleverly-designed and fun to play. That's why so many people are tap-dancing happily around these forums.
I do strongly believe, however, that each account should have only one realm allowed per server - if for no other reason that the fact that it makes it completely clear what the game designers intend. So that even the person sitting down to play this game as his first game ever, "gets it." Even that quintessential newbie has to understand, when the first thing they see on their first server is a realm choice, that this game is, at its core, about making a choice (realm) and acting out your loyalty to that choice.
What he chooses to do with his game time and account after that depends on how damn good the game is.
Don't jump on me for the newbie-off-the-street thing, it does happen; we all played something for the first time, when we didn't know squat and sat there going OMG THIS IS SOOOO COOOL at a character creation screen, or something similar, lol.
And unless we get those completely random newbies, no game will last.
And if we have a close-knit, supportive, proud, loyal community, some of those newbies will learn from them, and stay.
And, let's face it, we are all in some way interested in this phenomenon of people banding together in a loyal community to work for a common goal. Otherwise, we would all be on a forum talking about an upcoming free-for-all PVP game right now, and not reading my somewhat unfortunately wordy post.
Another item that has gone unmentioned so far here was the treatment of cross-realmers by the community once they were discovered back then.
Sure, cross-realming has always existed. People paid for multiple accounts, spying did happen, RL friends played separate realms, on and on. However, the community at large was able to widely police such activities so that if somone were caught spying or cross-realming, feeding information to their friends, or were known to play an ALT against their realm - their realm pretty much excluded them (on both realms).
There were no more group invites, private forum access was removed, even some guild removals, crafters would no longer sell to them, no help for them in RvR. So yes, cross-realming exisited, but on my old servers it was harshly punished if you were caught (which was ultimately inevitable). It wasn't worth it to screw over your own realm for personal gain. At all.
Many times those players ended up alienating themselves from the community to the point that they re-rolled and started all over again on a new server since they could no longer get anywhere.
None of these actions required Dev Forums or any special treatment. It just took a tight-knit community and a game design that forced that community to come together in order to be successful.
If one bad apple is spoiling the bunch, throw it out.
So far I believe that MJ has the vision to help us as a community be able to bring back that type of community enforcement via no instant group finder tools, no cross-server dungeon finders, giving players a defined role that relys on the roles of other players, no hand holding, etc.
Given the principles he has laid out so far, it seems it will ultimately be up to the players to form that community and to take that stance collectively.
Thus why there are 3 realms. Even if the weak-willed, such as those you are describing, flock to one of the realms, the other two can gang up on them.
Don't get mentally lost in the 2-sided pvp dynamic, like what WoW and many others offered. 3-realms are self-balancing, regarding population imbalances, all other things being equal.
Rubbish.
Have a look at Pirates of the Burning Seas as a counter example.
Even with one faction against all others it was not self balancing.
(and FWIW I also play a Browser based RvR PvP game with three realms and even with 2 vs 1 one faction dominates)
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Do you know what a "Griefer" is?
Everything you say sounds great - but in practice doesn't work quite so cleanly.
You get griefers who simply don't care. You get PKers who group up and enjoy being 'outlaws'.
You get paranoia - which is often more destuctive than the griefers, PKers and spies combined.
And you get a major headache for developers - since players who are NOT cross realmers and 'multis' get mistaken for such and have their game experience ruined by the 'community' - which becomes a big deal when people are actually paying to play.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
using DAOC as an example, how woud you "grief" someone? who would be an "outlaw"? There's no such thing a "PKers" in an RVR game. Everyone's killing.