Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Innovation is destroying community
WellzyC
Member UncommonPosts: 599
Innovation is a nice 50 cent word that mmo devs love to throw around when they are talking about their game. “Our game is innovative because we have these systems in place, or we do this in order to make your experience more convenient and fun”.
But innovation comes in many different forms and has lots of different paths. The most common path of “innovation” that seems to be really popular with game devs is convenience. How can we game the game more accessible, faster, and easier for casual players to get into. These innovative systems are designed to allow people to be more independent, to be put in groups at the touch of a button, and place every single person on one giant server.
Sound good right? We’ll here’s the problem with that.
While watching the Dave Georgenson interview it started to get me thinking about “depth of features” and how recent mmos claim to be innovative but have created convenience systems in their game that actively discourage player interaction and the development of community. Lots of features in new mmos that have taken away the need or ability to get to know the people you encounter.
Examples?
The dungeon finder: You don’t have to actively talk to people and recruit them in order to form a group.
No loot sharing: This is a small one, but small things add up, when a creature or boss dies everyone has a copy of the loot so there is no need to discuss who gets what, or talk about something “cool that dropped”.
Instanced story content and cut scenes: I have talked before about how I despise scripted content, so I won’t go into that again, but there are a lot of games making instanced stories and cut scenes the main focus of the game. Interaction between players is not wanted when someone is trying to read or listen to dialog. In Swtor, I actually had a guy leave the Vent channel because people were talking over his cut scenes.. you kidding me?
The Mega Server: this one gets me the most, and not just ESO, gw2 has a similar problem. Community is developed by familiarity, when you see the same people over and over again, you are far more likely to talk with them and interact. If you see the same five people in a public dungeon that you saw yesterday, you are more likely to strike up a conversation or group. Seeing the same guilds and seeing the same enemies creates comradery and creates rivelries. You don’t feel inclined to remember anyone you grouped with, or try to interact with them beyond going through the motions of a group if you know there is little to no chance you will ever see that player again.
These are just some examples of a larger growing problem. Innovation is way too focused on creating convenience that is phasing out community. This is why older MMOs have lasted so long, years and years, because community has been created over the need to get to know the people you play with. You have to be in good standing with other players in order to survive and get anything meaningful accomplished.
MMOs of today do not require you to form a community in order to progress because the games systems have bypassed that requirement through “innovative” features.
Not all innovation is bad, it still is a good word and games need to be innovative in order to survive this really competitive game market. But through innovation developers are sabotaging themselves by creating a shallow game that has only enough short term appeal as the shiny combat, or fancy scripted content that they have created. Completely forgetting the very essence of what makes an mmo great, creating a community through depth of features, familiarity, and the need to rely on others.
‘Till next time!
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
Comments
So? Obviously communtiy is not requierd to have fun .. and the innvoations you described recognize that.
I like all those features. No ninja-loot system is great. LFD is great. LFR is great .. for me, of course.
Short term fun, I feel that without the depth of features that comes from a game that supports interaction and requries it, is far more entertaining and has that elusive "longevity" that todays overly scripted, convience oriented mmos severly lack.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
yeah .. short term fun. And there are endless games to try so it is not like there will be a shortage of fun in the future. I would rather have short term good fun, then long term mediocre fun in a single game. And all entertainment gets boring in a while.
WoW is still going strong last I checked and the 'post-WoW' era has been going on longer than the 'old school' era.
So the 'short term fun' is factually false in the market place.
The majority of people don't find the 'community' aspect worth it so games are not pushing for it. Not sure why this is a big issue. Supply / Demand; working as intended.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The OP basically posits a very simple premise: its more fun to game with friends and rivals, than with strangers.
I think the broader point is, the quality of community does matter. Sadly, most of those innovative features exist because of poor communities making game progression difficult.
SoE's innovations will be a great step in communicating with others. They already have good voice and visual chat with SoEMote. Add in the fact that PS2 has open proximity chat tells me I'll be able to walk up to strangers in a town and our avatars could not only chat verbally but visually.
That's my idea of MMO innovation!
My sense of community revolves arround my guild and other players on my friends list.
I don't really have to chit-chat with every person I meet in a PUG (LFG).
Considering the number of people around here who try a game for a short time then list a number of reasons why the game is bad it's hard to imagine they will find endless fun.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
i agree, for me community is a big part of the fun factor. might as well play console games if not for community. really wish there were devs that understood that kind of gaming.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
If community is so important to people why are the games that focus on community never a huge success? Where does community stand as far as how important it is to people? It can't be very high on the list. If it was WoW sure wouldn't be what it is and has been for over 8 years. Because as everyone on these forums says WoW has the worst community ever.
I guess I just don't understand how it can be both ways. If community is so important than WoW should not have ever been popular..unless WoW's community isnt as bad as so many people on these forums say it is...or...Community is not as imporatnt as these people say and that is why wow is popular. Someone has to be wrong.
/reported for using logic and reason
Enjoy your ban!!
not everyone cares that much about community. some people would like to actually have one of these mysterious games that focus on community that you talk about. please point one out, i'd love to see one.
wow used to have a much better community.
wow still has pockets of good community, but many of us are looking for something besides wow. there is more to it than just community. wow simply isn't challenging unless you are running hard mode raids. wow used to be challenging just running strat/scholo and ubrs. the leveling dungeons used to be challenging.
I personally don't care if people don't care about community. more power to ya. have at it ... I'd just love to see a game that doesn't have all this instant gratification easy mode community breaking content.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
But you remember the days of forced grouping to advance. That was community!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Because that is the way logic works.
Ryzom does, SWG did, EQ still does. EVE does. What do/did these games have in common? They are all niche.
Blizzard tried to go back to the more challenging dungeons with Cata and what happened? Something like 2 million people left. That is not what those people wanted in a MMORPG.
I gave you a few options up there. Lets be honest though you want a NEW game that focuses on the things you like. Fair enough, but how can you blame any developer when they look at the past success of those type of games? 250k players is not considered a win anymore. This isn't 1998.
"Because that is the way logic works."
stopped reading there. obviously not worth my time if you dont realize different people have different ideas of things and play games for reasons other than the reasons you play them.
gday sir
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
LOL....ok.
hes right if you look at woW numbers.
disregarding the fact that pre=wow the number of MMO players was much smaller. Thus the games having smaller sub numbers. Now u could argue that people who like community would play those old games well:
some people (me for instance) want some eye candy, can't really play tho old ones. you can say WoW is old asswell. but WoW's cartoony graphics age well. Other more realistic grapihcs do not unless then overhaul alot of stuff. wich aint happening.
Also if youd join one of those games now youd be pretty much alone in those starting areas. thus people cannot give the game a good chanse an get to know the community because playing alone in a game where grouping is pretty much required is well quite hard/ imposible.
This has nothing to do with people loving a community or not. we just have to face that those games are too old.
I bet if a mmo with those old principles and mechanics (leveling being an adventure, dangorous areas, almost no quests exept for ones wich are meaningfull, forced grouping etc etc (granted some things can be updated) with nice grapichs. (2013 not pre-2000 graphics) would launch now. people would be able to give it a fair shot and i think alot more people would stay there to play instead of our current themeparks.
you really cannot compare a possible market of 2mil max (pre 2000) compared to the what have we 20million mmo players we have now, its not fair comparing the subnumbers of those old mmo's compared to today's So all the theorycrafting u guys are doing is meanigless.
Nobody can for sure say what will happen to such an MMO. We would ahve to wait for a developer to actually make and release a good one.
Greenhell rofl.... No you got it wrong there.
People got fed up with themeparks. not the game starting to be more chalanging again.
Says the guy who has repeatedly said he likes/prefers soloing and doesn't group or interact with others in games.
Not as much the dev's as the newer community. No clue that is what defined MMORPG's. Not MMO's Nariu....MMORPG's.
Please name me these MMORPG's post-WoW that's focus was community.
WoW was popular because it introduced the main stream gamer to a previously niche genre of gaming. Hence why it's community was so piss poor. Tons of console players, etc. Plus, the more players, the more likely it will have a larger percentage of idiots.
I disagree with you. Not entirely though. Yes, any game or type of game gets old after awhile and people will leave. Honestly though WoW had been pretty much the same through WotLK. It was always a themepark. It wasn't until CATA that people really started to jump ship. The casual player did not want to spend an hour in a 5 man. Things like CC (something i actually enjoy) were obviously not popular because that is all but gone in MOP. WoW has once again turned back to the more casual player. Very fast, easy 5 mans, Scenarios and now single player sceanrios. The game has become much easier again. Why would Blizzard do that if their research did not show that is what people wanted?
I have to agree with you that Yup we are back at the zerg 15min dungeons. I was under the impresion that people did not like to "grind" thats what these dungeons feel like to me. a meaningless gear grind
Fallen Earth was more community orientated. VG was more community orientated. Ryzom launched around the same time as WoW. Maybe a month or 2 earlier.
I almost forgot Seed and Dark and Light,