Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
If you build a wall in 1 hour how long should it take to destroy the wall
asdar
Member UncommonPosts: 662
I started thinking about games that allow players to build, such as minecraft, but more for an MMO.
The first problem that comes up in my mind in this kind of game is that when you build something someone else immediately wants to destroy it. I've heard suggestions like scheduling attack times and the like, but I've never liked the artificial restriction of not being able to attack.
I'm more of a builder than a destroyer, but it takes both kinds. I think maybe 100 times to destroy something would be good given that whole guilds of destroyers will be roaming around trying to tear down what you've built up.
This might lead to something like a guild of players encircling your building with walls that you can't get through, but can't tear down in time, but at least it would be on the side of building things over tearing things down.
Another method might be making it easy to tear down if you have expensive tools like catapults, while building up being cheap.
So what do you all think about the subject.
Asdar
Comments
Hm, I think that fighting over player built housing is an elaborate tug of war contruct that has no meaning when all is said and done. Aka, pvp is once again . . . meaningless.
I guess that's why I prefer battle ground type pvp. I enjoy pvp for the sake of it. You got your team, I've got my team, let's punch each other in the face for a while.
There's no way to answer this without knowing a lot of other things about gameplay.
In most games (as in real life) it's far faster to destroy a wall than build it. In games this is balanced against the fact that as the waller you're usually then able to react to defend your wall (as in RTS games,) and the value is that the wall delayed incoming troops longer, and for cheaper, than a set of standing troops would have.
In games where build speeds outstrip demolish speeds, it's also pretty easy to troll people. A friend I worked on AOE2 with knew he wasn't as good as me at the game, so often he would just build these completely ridiculous walls (like 20 layers thick of stone wall) and make things incredibly tedious, rather than even attempt to win.
In an open world game? Well Haven & Hearth and ATITD are a couple of the only MMO sandboxes I've liked, and solved it by territory claim systems which let you do whatever you want on your claim. H&H in particular had PVP but I never saw it while I was there, which was part of why I enjoyed the game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are a lot of ways to go about it, but ultimately it's not that easy to build or destroy a structure. Even taking down a wooden house takes ages, sure, you can damage it and knock it over, but that doesn't mean it's totally gone, worst case scenario, most of the materials are still there.
Likewise, when you build a structure, if a foe tries to defeat it and gain access, he is not going to spend forever trying to tear down every part of the structure, he will ram down the door, and maybe break one or two key access walls, than try to take the fortification.
I don't think it should be about how long it takes to build a structure over how long it takes to defeat it, I think it should be more about how much damage the foe takes trying to take a structure, and whether they can survive long enough against a barrage of attacks that they are poorly equipt to return. By making up a general example, let's say that melee attacks during a seige are mostly ineffectual, and ranged attacks vs the fortifications retainer is going to be 75% reduced. It's the typical fortification strong point, it allows fewer men to face a larger force, or simular forces to be greatly outmatched if one is using the structure.
Add onto that the rudimentary and complex methods needed to penetrate the fortress, it takes them a great deal of time, but can make it easier. Scaling the wall can deliniate between grapping up the wall and ladders to full blown war elevators which deliver large forces several stories up. But if the maker of the structure is very prepared, he could have retardedly high walls so scaling is near impossible. Breaking in can consist of a carried battering ram, to a shielded one, to a mechanical one, also rams and launchers an be used at doors and walls, while on the opposite side, the defender can build thicker walls, hedged doors, and use more expensive materials in order to make even those difficult.
Given enough time and resources, a fortification can be made nigh impregnible, consider Troy, which could not be taken until infiltrated. The process of aquiring resources, funding, and protecting a fortress during construction should also be a process, in order to allow massive fortresses to be built, but still have a weakness due to time and effort spent defending it during it's creation too.
The last part would be partial destruction and reconstruction, it's possible to take a fortress, and claim it for yourself, fortresses are very valuable and expensive, most of the time, forces do not want to destroy it totally anyway, they want to steal it. Even if they have the means to wipe it out entirely, it may not be worth it to throw that many resources and that much effort against a structure, only to lose the prize, the structure itself. Between player perogative to gain lordship over a keep, and the possibility to partially destroy and rebuild at a fraction of the effort, there is a lot of intermediate area for structures to last much longer.
I hope that helps, time to shower and rush to work XD
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
If the foes being flung at your walls are just gonna respawn, than your walls may as well to, there needs to be a balance between offense and defense in many respects.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Before the question can be answered there needs to be answers to a couple other questions.
1. Who is your playerbase. Are they builders? pvpers? Both. It is very relevant, a game that lets you build things will get a lot of builders, but they don't like their things being destroyed. Pvper's don't want their things destroyed either but will deal with it for the fair chance of them destroying someone else's creations. Who is your major audience?
2. Why destroy at all? What is the purpose behind it? Just for lulz, the game will fail. For resources, that has possibilities.
3. How long does it take to build in the first place? I've played games where your structures were destroyed, it was fun the first few times. But the 4th time I had to rebuild that wall, that was boring now. I didn't want to do it anymore, what was the point of me rebuilding it. I guess this is tied into point number 3 as well
Probably some other questions as well. But before I engage in any game that allows destruction I need to know the answers to those first.
Not in Pink Floyd World...
Mother do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother do you think they'll like this song?
Mother do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Oooh, ahh
Mother should I build the wall?
Mother should I run for President?
Mother should I trust the government?
Mother will they put me in the firing mine?
Oooh ahh,
Is it just a waste of time?
Hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.
Mama's gonna make all your nightmares come true.
Mama's gonna put all her fears into you.
Mama's gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Mama's gonna keep baby cozy and warm.
Ooooh baby, ooooh baby, oooooh baby,
Of course mama's gonna help build the wall.
Mother do you think she's good enough, for me?
Mother do you think she's dangerous, to me?
Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
Ooooh ah,
Mother will she break my heart?
Hush now baby, baby don't you cry.
Mama's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
Mama won't let anyone dirty get through.
Mama's gonna wait up until you get in.
Mama will always find out where you've been.
Mama's gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
Ooooh baby, oooh baby, oooh baby,
You'll always be baby to me.
Mother, did it need to be so high?
Wait, what?
Let me get this straight. You think fighting over SOMETHING has no meaning...
But you enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, which has even less meaning, correct?
How does anything that you just said make any sense at all?
/mind blown
I think this is the crux of the matter.
If it takes a lot of time to find materials and build the structures, after a while of rebuilding and rebuilding it will eventually become a "why bother" scenario.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Isn't the solution obvious? Just make building fast & easy.
We are talking about games here, you can make the mechanics anyway you want.
I agree with both of you. It feels pointless.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Doesn't solve the feeling of it being pointless less N times of doing the same thing. People want to build dynasties not repair broken walls. Think growth not parity.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
This is where point #1 comes into play. If you are targeting builders for your audience, fast and easy won't cut it. They want detailed, not necessarily time consuming, but highly customizable.
Without the "why" it does not matter.
Why are people building the wall?
Why do people want to take it down?
If you don't have engaging and fun answers to these questions it does not matter.
--John Ruskin
If you build the wall. You should be able to reinforce it.
In Mortal anything you build can be destroyed. However if you use bogus materials it will be destroyed much sooner. You want people to beat on your house for so long that they forget why they came there and leave.
+ 1 for causing a flashback.
If builders are the target audience, then why let the walls be destroyed at all? If combat is an afterthoguht, may as well not doing it (like Tales of the Desert).
Or conversely, just make destruction slow. Give the wall a billion health.
Thats why I asked the first question, "Who is your target Audience"
All other questions in the game should be reflected on this first one.
The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become.
You are confusing... you seem to complain about PvP being 'meaningless' when fighting to protect something you have invested heavily in, then you say like doing it 'for the sake of it'...
How does PvPing just for 'the sake of it' make it more meaningful then fighting for something you or your guild have built?
Elaborate?
Oh yes that is the obvious solution but is it a desirable solution.
If it's easy to tear down a structure and take its materials but also easy to build because the builder has access to materials then is that really going to be fun for anyone?
So you log in, open your house panel,see ,it's destroyed, hit "rebuild" and bam it's built. you do it again the next day and the next day, ad infinitum.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's not really that complicated.
Doing something for the sake of fun is well . . . fun. And so it has meaning in real life, to you the person being entertained.
Doing something with a task in mind when that task is utterly sisyphean is . . . amazingly pointless. This is only magnified when the task you are accomplishing is virtual.
Now, if you're enjoying the actual pvp, then yes you are having fun. But then you didn't need the wall did you? Wall goes up, wall comes down, wall goes up, wall goes down - ad infinitum. Maybe as well just skip the wall and do the fun part . . . the pvp."I've heard suggestions like scheduling attack times and the like, but I've never liked the artificial restriction of not being able to attack."
It's no more artificial than not being able to defend because you have a life outside the game. I think that some form of tag-to-seige system is something more games (and not just PvP games) should consider.
I think you should give this some more thought. There's a seperation betweeen strategic infrastructure (big, long-term investments) and tactical infrastructure (within-that-game-session investments).