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Seeking Feedback: Mounts vs. Speed Buff Classes
MarkJacobs
CEO City State EntertainmentMember RarePosts: 649
Folks,
As part of the evolution of both CU and our Kickstarter the issue of mounts has come up a number of times. I want to lay out my current thoughts and then hear what you guys have to say about the issue. As always, let's keep things nice and civil even if you think horses are only good for stew pots. 
1) I think that CU needs to have support classes that have speed buffs. They were obviously very popular in Dark Age and in other games. I would definitely like to see them implemented in CU and currently, they do have a slot in the launch classes.
2) I also think that mounts are cool if done right. I'd love to have mounted combat in the game but that is not going to happen due to the additional polys that having mounts in a large-scale battles that would have to be rendered. Mounts can however serve an important role.
3) Given the lore of CU, having both mounts and SBC makes a ton of sense and frankly, would just look great.
I understand players' concerns on both sides of the debate but what if we did the following:
1) SBC classes will always be able to cast the fastest speed buffs in the game by a very significant margin. Thus, It will still always be to your advantage to have an SBC in your group.
2) Mounts will not be gold sinks as they have been in other games. Getting a mount will be a badge of honor of course but they will be earned by having success in RvR and not simply attainable for a certain amount of gold.
3) Mounts will also be useful in carrying heavier loads such as pieces of siege equipment.
4) Training mounts *may* also be a crafting skill.
Now I know that everything I want mounts to do we could do by simply adding enough buffs to players but would the above implementation in theorycrafting make sense?
Thanks!
Mark
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Comments
Hey Mark, good question, I would say go for the mounts, as long as they can't be ridden in combat, so SBC's will still be important, just not as much... Also, don't make mounts too fast, I don't want to, if I'm playing a stealther, see enemies zooming by me, that I don't get a chance to backstab, becuz they're just going so freken fast, lol
@ Mark,
Have you looked at the trailer for Black Deserts on Massivly, or Youtube?
Pearl Abyss seems to have come up with a pretty decent system.
I want Mounts, and Mounted combat....:)
I want and like SBCs. Both are good for me, and I would like to see both.
I generally don't like mounts for these reasons:
- cast time + can't move while casting [solution: make it insta cast or let us move while casting it]
- no option for automatic dismounting when using a skill or entering combat (this is the thing I hate most in TERA atm)
- I prefer to look at my character and not at a horse
- clipping issues (my pet constantly running inside the horse, horses running inside eachother)
- breaks immersion (a horse appears out of nowhere and then disappears, also it is unkillable)
- they aren't optional. Games force me to use a mount to stay competitive.
I wouldn't mind mounts as long as I have an option to use a speed spell instead (same speed).
If you have speed classes (which is fine by me although I would prefer they not need to equip instruments for speed like bards and minstrels did in DAOC), then there will be the problem of groups lacking those classes and solo players. Those groups and soloers still need a way to move around the world faster than walking. Letting them use mounts is a good option. Like you suggest, make mounts slower than speed classes. Then using mounts would be the backup option players would use when they didn't have a speed class. You could also or even instead have NPCs that give out short duration speed buffs like the hasteners in DAOC plus short duration speed buff potions.
Since mounts would also double as extra inventory storage that are always available away from a personal vault NPC; really cool mounts could be only be made available as crafting products, rare drops from world NPCs, rewards for founders, or rewards for players who achieve great feats in RvR; and mounts offer an easy way to raise extra money from the game in a cash shop (should you go that route) without being P2W, I think they would be a good addition.
DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer
Yep, it's on my watch list. For us though, the key is large-scale battles and it always boils down to both network and client performance and having everyone on mounts, well, that doesn't help the client part of it one little bit.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
1. The whole *poof* disappeared mechanic is just lame
2. Even out of combat they add poly counts
3. Unkillable
If you want to have them for carrying stuff like siege or components why not add pack horses, mules donkeys? These would have to stabled, could be killed or even captured, would not just disappear.
I absolutely love speed buff classes; in Dark Age of Camelot, it provided so much strategy and a means of escape against the zerg through the use of smart play or simply Speed of Sound.
Mounts are awesome, too. It provides cosmetic bragging rights and the ability to actually be useful to the game. Mounts can carry larger loads as well as be dressed up by crafters through armorcrafting/tailoring, which spurs the economy even further.
What's the fine middle ground? Speed Buff Classes should remain as the primary means of travel; the fastest way to point a to point b. Players should be able to use mounts as a means of travel as well, but to a lesser extent. Depending on the speed of the mount, if the player is attacked and dismounted, the player should suffer some form of a penality. This should balance the overall mount vs SBC issue - it would also open the door for mounted combat way down the line, if ever implemented.
I'd like to see both mounts and SBCs in Camelot Unchained, but if I had to specifically pick one.... Speed Buff Classes.
This guy is very clever with hype.
But I will bite.
If you want Mounts in the game, and reading your suggestions,
I would say it would be better to make Mounts a combat related thing as well as a seperate Speed boost mount but having both of them on long daily cooldowns.
Battle Mounts spawn once a day for those that earn it, and have special abilities based on what creature they are. This could add a layer of gameplay to your PvP focused game. The Extra pixels would be an issue you will just have to overcome.
having speed boosting classes reminds me of current GW2 travel issues in WvW. Sometimes we dont have those classes around and want to get back to the battle which is where the fun is, not the paths running to the fun.
also in games like this people get attached to their personal mounts. Especially if you are considering using a Taming feature. Its best to handle this by simply having Speed Boosting mounts on a seperate cooldown, but still on long duration cooldown, so its not used often, but still there as a option. about 5-7 times to summon a day kind of limit with unlimited duration but despawn when knocked off. similar to how other tradtional MMOs now days do it.
This still makes those Speed Boosters wanted both in and out of combat, but not 100% needed all the time when out of combat.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Definately have SBC, i loved my Minstrel in DAoC.
As for mounts i don't mind them being in the game as a backup incase you can't get a SBC, but how would combat work with them? Would they just vanish when combat is triggered? Would being hit remove the mount and speed buff?
A pack mule skill for crafting classes could work. Extra HP and armour so that they can take a decent beating, but maybe make them go neutral if the crafter is killed. That way the enemy has a choice, either kill the enemy person or group and steal the Pack Mule once they are dead and out of combat gaining some much needed supplies. Or kill it first with some burst damage in a hit and run to slow enemy supply lines.
Speed Buff Classes -> Yes
Mounts -> No
Born as a berserker, I was also a hero, a bounty hunter, a paladin ,a troubador and a paladin once again during my Mmo''s experiences .. Now travelling in a galaxy looking for a new adventure
mounts with different stats imho.
mounted combat please, as well - but there would need to be some hard counter to this so everyone isnt mounted all the time)
all can be used in any situation, but some are light and faster, good for skirmishing/travel. some stronger, can wear armor and would be better suited to charging an opponent.
i still would like for a race that doesnt use mounts, way back in its early stages the WoW taurnes had a 'plain running' racial they had in place of a mount, but that seems harder to balance.
I love Bard / Speed classes. I don't mind mounts, as long as their speed is nowhere near those of the Bard class. I think mounts should provide just a small speed bonus, and like you said, be more of a badge of honor... earned through lot's of RvR.
I don't want mounted combat. If only because it will add extra lag to big RvR fights.
I would much rather the game performance was clean and tight before mounts are even considered. Assuming that will be the case, I like the idea of mounts just as you've described it. Basically, a graphical speed buff with added inventory space, which totally makes sense for seiges (carrying parts, etc.) (Ooooh, could seige engines be completely dependent on mounts or at least on a method of transport?)
I find the idea of tying it to crafters very intriguing. My concern would be: if a mount is a reward earned in RvR, what role would the crafter serve? And how well would the interplay between the two work?
I would also like a better graphical "spawn" and "despawn" of the mount... never a fan of the "poofing" thing.
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
If I had a choice I would say no mounts. However, if you feel it necessary to implement such things I hope you still include speed classes who's chants/songs are much faster than mounts.
I just really don't like mounts in general and I've never seem them implemented in a way that significantly improved gameplay - I have seen them hinder it, though.
Was always more fond of the SBC.
You could always make mounts or rather pack horses/mules a risk vs reward thing in the RVR world.
Taking out a rather large siege engine? Use a draft horse, you/your team escort this horse from a place where he was brought into the game to where you want the siege, the animal uses the groups highest speed buff, or you can purchase a speed buff at his origin. You escort the horse to his location for set up. Chance enoucnter enemies foind you and you fight, winner gets the siege. - Bonus to this, returning the horse to your realm stable alive rewards the group/people who helped in some small way (RVR xp, coins, tokens, whatever method you use) Doing so many of these missions could in the end reward some sort of Stable attachement for your personal house and you could have a replica horse in there you fed and cared for, could ride around out of combat.
For crafters/gatherers increase what they can carry home with pack mules, again same speed rules and combat rules applies. Largest difference, you lose your mule, you lose all he had on him material wise. This feels improtant because it makes gathering in the world risky (If gathering is done this way) and people can/will contend for no only materials, but we could see raids on mule trains, thusly requiring craftings to hire RVR people to guard, or guard for a battered piece of gear in return.
The both have vast ranges on how it could work out, and it's for the most part player driven. SBC stays in the game, and the mounts are more or less for show.
I think the general consensus so far is:
1. SBC is the best route; DAoC nailed it. Provide a base speed buff at keeps, just like DAoC to balance between lack of speed classes available and groups without it.
2. Mounts are typically just a cosmetic feature that adds nothing to game play. However, if added, do not exceed or meet the speed of a SBC; allow mounts to carry inventory.
3. SBC, fluid game play > Mounts with lag fest RvR
I have to say I agree with it, too.
Mounts could be brought in as vanity/rewards for RvR, whatever. Treated like mounts usually are in MMOs. Although mounts could add to carrying capacity, I would rather see a donkey or pack animal system for transporting siege equipment and large building pieces. Would like to see them able to be either killed or captured to where what they carry can be seized. I think it would be cool to be able to see what sort of stuff the animal is carrying so you would know if you want to bother with it.
SBC classes are cool, I loved the minstrels, the speed emote was just cool. Would love to see that redone in CU, + using instruments. For the solo player when no SBC is around, what about some sort of temp speed buff item?
I wouldn't mind seeing some exotic mounts, but please no battle chickens or other goofy mounts. A lizard mount like those in SWG would be pretty cool.
I think that's an excellent solution. Speed classes will always be able to cast the fastest speed buffs. I have no problems with mounts in a game, but I think speed classes being able to be the fastest still gives them a role in a group so they're not replaced by a mount. If I had to vote though, I'd say NO to mounts, maybe have donkeys with or without carts for carrying the wood, and seige equipment.
It looks like you've thought of almost everything MJ, heh. Thanks once again for your interactions with us.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I voted No mounts...
However, what you have here is acceptable.... BUT Mounts must be killable for the sake of siege warfare.
Two critiques on speed classes.
1) I honestly don't like that they are absolutely mandatory exclusively for their speed song. The problem that makes in daoc is that if you wanted to put skald speed in a suppression runemaster's spec line, adding a skald to your group now seems like you're adding a one armed thane to group. So for the sake of having the option to add speed spec to more than one class, I would just make sure that the class is a solid choice beyond speed song. Like, a skald with super-strong damage add song that didn't effect the skald as much. Work out the numbers to the point where the skald isn't an OP soloing machine, but more than worthwhile. Lets say their damage add turns 3 berserkers into 4 berserkers + a skald.
2) Having max speed on 1 class per realm makes them mandatory. I would suggest 2 classes per realm having a specialization for max speed.
Make horses leave a poop trail and not move at max skald speed. Muahaha!
No offense but I've notice a trend of newer MMO gamers making all suggestions with a pre-nerf component like a long cooldown. Maybe its a good idea but try it without a cooldown first. There was no mount cooldown in daoc and there were no problems with it, you just couldn't mount up in combat.
I would like to see both. Speed Boost Classes for combat, mounts for world exploration and transportation.
I'm not a big fan of mounted combat, so won't be terribly dissappointed if it's missing.
Are flying mounts an option?
Never was a fan of speed buff classes. As a rogue in every game I played including DAoC, it was very hard for me to get groups initially, since rogue classes weren't especially sought after in many groups (at least when I played from DAoC beta and into retail)...made travelling a chore and ultimately it was a gamebreaker for me. Getting back to the fight, or arriving to fights late wasn't fun and travel time ended up being time consuming in RL. Some of the instant travel stuff came into the game later after I left, and I am sure it probably fixed some of the issues I had.
I would prefer mounts so that groups and solo rogue/scout classes can get in the action on equal terms.
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