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Thread for free aim and action focused combat, constructive ideas and suggestions.
Stiler
Member Posts: 599
Hello, with the recent threads focused on tab targetting and more traditional combat I thought it would be nice to have one in support of having a combat system more focused on the ability for free aiming with a more actoiny-combat focus. Please read the full post before replying or making judgements.
There are many misconceptions going around about what many of us who favor a newer more actiony focused combat would want, with free aim, etc, and some things in this are just my opinion afterall, I don't speak for every action combat supporter.
A few bullet points to try and help clear things up.
1. Free aiming, and "action" focused combat does not mean you can't have "tactical" combat or in-depth combat strategies.
2. It does not mean you can't have abilities and other things, the same as you do in any other mmorpg. Free aiming does not take this away. You can see Darkfall as a more recent example of this.
3. Free Aim and "actiony" combat does not meanthat you have to have "bunny hopping," quick "spamming" of attacks, and other issues like that, that depends more on how the mechanis are built and balanced. Many of us who support free aim do not like such things either, and would hope that it would not be possible, we would like good tactical combat with depth.
4. This is not a thread about which takes more "skill" or less "skill," both systems take skill.
5. Pleaes keep it civil, no need for name calling or any of that.
What does Free Aim mean? It means the ability to actually aim your attacks, instead of having a lock on, or at least a lock on that allows arrows/magic attacks to "hit" what you are locked onto. So instead you would have to aim your attacks with your mouse, hitting with your own ability rather then the assistance of a target lock.
This would mean that range attackers, such as mages and archers, would have to aim their attacks, rather then locking onto people.
One of the major things that free aiming brings to the table is for allowing people to effectively dodge attacks. Rather it be melee or range. Seeing that arrow flying at you or the mages huge fireball roaring toward you and making that quick side-step actually makes a difference.
On top of this, what was once "abilities" that sit on your action bar to be hotkeyed can be folded into simply allowing people to aim. For example:
An Archer (in many mmo's) usually has some tiype of ao "slow" ability, so he can kite peple more effectively/keep at range longer). Now insead of this being a hotkey or ability, an archer would need only aim at their enemies leg or such and hit them, to have a chance to slow them. This leads to making Aiming an important asepct of combat among having abilities fit in more "naturally" with how you play in combat.
I think most of us can agree, we want good tactical combat that rewards strategy and smart skills.
Below are just some of my own personal idea's and suggestions, feel free to add yours or provide feedback.
One of the things that lends itself to Action focused combat is cooldowns, or ather a lack of them. In many action games there are no "cooldowns" to speak of, at least as most mmorpg players know them as. instead the game focuses more on things such as stamina control, where more "powerful" attacks cost more stamina, and whereby yes, you can cast two more "powerful" attacks then 3 less powerful ones, you will then be exhausted and thus extremely vunerable to attack. This is something of course that has to b ecarefully balanced and fleshe dout.
The main ways to balance out a lack of cooldowns is as I mentioned, stamina cost. Also on top of this the animations also can affect how things are balanced, with more powerful attacks, or combo's, taking longer to pull off.
In general this leads to combat having a quicker pace, but also providing more freedom for players and thus more strategy, as you aren't locked into set rotations or specific atacks while others are on cooldowns. This means you can use skills in all sorts of combintaions, but you have to manage your stamina.
Archers, the whole aspect of aiming is what would make me love to play one n teh game. If anyone here has plaed the excellent Mount and Blade game, that kind of archery setup is extremely rewarding to play. Because everytime you land a headshot or hit someone from a distance, it's just more rewarding knowing your aim (and perhaps some luck) did it rather then any kind of a lock on system.
Mages could have access to many spells much more quickly then traditional style tab-target/hotkey combat. Depending on how the control system is setup, you could easily have it so that mages could say, have schools of magic that you can quickly switch between (in your traditional hotkey style setup, so push 1 for say "fire " based magic, then 2 for Air based, etc, you could even allow players to specifically change these up, so you can hav ea mix and use what you like more quickly) and then depending on "how" they attack, each attack casts a different spell, you could quickly chain attacks and spells while also keeping up on having to aim and your movement/position. to dodge other enemies attacks/spells.
I don't know if anyone here played it, but Kingdoms of Amalur had quite a good "feeling" with its magic combat system, the spells and mechanics, from a gameplay perspective were very fun. It provided a great kinetic feedback to be a mage in that game.
A video showing off KoA mage gameplay.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV-F5wWxOcA
Of coures with CU, you'd need variety and skills, and perhaps they could even think of something better. Just using that as an example of the "feeling" of a mage that I like.
Melee combat, my idea or rather "dream" behind this, is having combat as good as a game called Severance, which I've mentioned quite a bit in this threads talking about combat.
I have played action-adventure games, well pretty much since I got my first pc in the early 90's, going through classic games like Die By the sword, Rune, the Jedi knight games and mayn others.
These kinds of games were fun, but many used a system similar to Jedi Knight, where it uses your movement to determine the attack you do. This leads ot combat that both feels "floaty" (because it forces you to move in a specific direction to do an attack) but also combat that just visually, looks very sporatic and odd, with all the random strafing and swinging the weapons with no context for such movement.
That is why when i played Severance back in 2001 or so when it came out, it blew me away. They figured out how to stop this and still provide fun and in-depth combat.
The basic combat system worked like this:
You had a soft-lock, now I know some people ar elike "but isn't this thread about free-aim and actiony combat with no lock ons?" well yes, but you see this kind of lock on, did not magically help you hit people, rather it simpyl kept you oriented toward your enemy. By using this it opened up the "combat plane" into a 3d space. Whereby pushing your strafe keys (a/d for most people) you circled around your enemy instead of moving straight left/right in a line, like many other action games and you had to constnatly turn your mouse/camera to keep your focus because you're characters movement exists on a "2d plane" instead of the 3d that the soft lock provided. This made circle strafing look and feel more natural for how people would do it.
The term "soft" lock means that while the game keeps you oriented toward your enemy, it does not keep you locked to them, or make your attacks magically hit them. The way they do this is by simply having your attacks, when you do them, play out in that specific direction you were facing. This means that if an enemy (or if you , vs an enemy) read the attack or guess, you can easily dodge it, or block it wiht a shield. So if you sidestop or roll, the attack doesn't "follow" you like with a hard-lock system.
This meant that defense was a HUGE part of the gameplay. You could not beat the game by spamming attacks, as your enemies could dodge/blcok them (especially if you did the same thing over and over) and spamming also led to your character becoming exhausted, which in turn left you slow and vunerable , where you could not dodge nor block yoruself. You had to learn how to dodge and/or block good.
In severance the combat oabilities were tied to both the character you played as, as well as the weapon. This meant that the game had a huuuuge variety of combat abilities and moves. certain weapons were better at certain things, and what character you played as impacted this.
For CU this could add a lot to the different races and weapons in the game. Making each "feel" unique and different, at least compared to the other realms.
The mechanics of attacking, unlike in Jedi Knight and such, where you "moved" in order to do a specific attack, in severance you actually had to stand still, there was no "running" around and just swinging your sword like a wild man trying to hit something, this both looks and feels very strange, to me at least. You instead had your "action" key, which was the mouse button (IIRC, it's been years since I played it, a pita to try to get it to work on win7) and while holding down your mouse button, your keyboard become the controls for your combat moves. So you had IMMEDIATE access to a hug evariety at moves all at your fingertips.
This was such a simple, yet brilliant mechanic, because not only does it solve the problem of the Jedi Knight style combat, but it also opens up to a tooooon more variety.
Imagine for example, in most mmo's that use your traditional hotkeys, usually most people have them mapped to the number keys, or such, thus you have to move your hand away from your movement keys and things. Which can lead to some sticky situations when you want to quickly move. Now with a system similar to severance, you don't have to do this. You simply press the moues button down an dhold it, hit any of your normal keyboard keys (w/s/a/d, etc) which WHILE your holding your moues are now the "combat" keys instead of your movement keys, so you can keep your hand where you normally have it. If you need to move or dodge? You simply let go of your mouse obutton and the keys turn back to your normal movement keys, etc. This allows for a VERY quick reflex action that provides much quicker access to both attacking and defending then normal mmo style combat controls.
Sorry I kind of got into a bit of a detailed ramble, trying to explain mechanics and things more clearly.
I 'll wrap it up and say that as both an mmo fan and action combat fan, I would like to see combat that is good, in depth and rewards tactics above all, and while I may want combat to be different then the more general mmo style tab/hotkey focus, I still hope CU is a success even if it doesn't have this style and will still look forward to it if it goes for a more traditional combat route.
Comments
I did not read, but assuming you want aimed attacks, I just don't want that at all.
I don't mean to be rude, but that is a lot of words and I'm about to goto bed. If thats isn't what your post was about, then disregard this.
First off my favorite action system is super Mario 64 type engine. I also liked Zelda's ltarget locking system. That being said I don't want the system that you are proposing.
Tab targeting is the best system for CU.
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Great post, Stiler. While I disagree per the massive conversation that occurred in the tab targeting thread, I'm not going to voice my opinions here to drag the importance of the discussion. Hopefully I'll learn something!
Personally, I enjoy WoW's targetting system and gameplay the most out of any MMO I've ever played. I hope they go with a lighter version of this. I was not a huge fan of the /stick style of combat that DAoC had, but I'm also not a huge fan of all the /target macros and things WoW has. I think a simpler version of WoW's targeting system would be great for me.
I have never been a huge fan of the Skyrim-style combat either, so I definitely hope they don't go down this route. I mostly just find that manually aiming my skills and abilities is less fun than the targeting method. I also dislike the first person perspective from which this type of combat typically takes place. Bunny hopping and things like that have never been a concern for me.
The fact that this game is going to be very min-maxy is exciting to me. I like pushing and crunching numbers and I feel like the targeting system lends itself a bit better to that style of game. I feel like being able to manually avoid attacks and skills kind of waters down that system a little bit, but that is toally debatable.
I enjoyed your post, btw. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
Dear OP.
No thank you.
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Both types of systems have their place. I, for one, feel that the tab-targetting model works better for WoW or other 3rd person view MMORPG's. Aim style targeting continues to be dominant in things like first person shooters such as Planetside and the like.
I tried to play Tera a found the aim-targetting system not to my taste and I also feel the people who think aim-targetting takes more skill than tab-targetting are inherently looking for different styles of games. I'm not a particular huge fan of FPS games and enjoyed the holy-trinity and tab targeting of games like WoW and Rift. I've also seen people who excel at aim-targetting play like garbage in tab-targetting environment and the oposite - different stokes.
Free aim is for first person shooters (FPS).
There are plenty of FPS out in the market both for PC and console. There are also MMO's that blend the FPS combat into their so-called (RPG): such successes include Tera and GW2. Please go play those and don't blend, water down, or "evolve" our game (I put evolve in quotations to be sarcastic as to how the "evolution" of MMORPGs have devolved into MMOFPS/RPG blends). Leave our game alone. We don't need your FPS combat, sorry.
I've stated this in other threads and ill also state it in this one:
Get your FPS out of my RPG. (could you possibly do that?)
I asked people to read my post, at least part of it and it's obvious you didn't.
RPGS are not defined by combat, the Tab-target and hotkey system doesn't make an rpg an "rpg", some of the best rpgs out there didn't even use such a system, From fallout, baldur's gate, to Ultima Online, etc.
What you prefer other people might prefer something different.
Some of us enjoy more then one type of gameplay. I love isometeric party-based rpgs, I also enjoy rpgs like Vampire: TMB, Mass Effect, Kotor, and others that have compeltely different styles of combat.
Being able to "aim" doesn't have to "take away" anything tihat the tab-target system offers, can you tell me why you think having ifree aim would somehow destroy your "rpg?" Because you have to aim now and therefore it merely changes how you aim, not the combat itself, you can still have all the abilities and tactics that a tab-target system offers, you merely have to aim now.
Ok, ill give you a list of famous RPG's that don't use free aim:
Dragon Quest 1-10
Final Fantasy 1 - what ever number they are on
Every Phantasy star + the online games ever made
Well anyways the list of games go on and on.
We can go into example after example of games etc, and even start saying, well this is console, this isn't online, this is etc etc.
If you want to do that fine, because the majority of RPG's DO NOT use free aim combat. So if you want to base your arguement on a handful of games like UO and Fallout, then you will lose because my list will be longer with more high quality better rpg's than the list you can create. (So I'm not going the route of picking apart fallout or baldurs gate in terms of a comparison what DAOC was or CU will be.
Secondly, there are zero games out there that duplicated all of the awesome things that DAOC did, so to have people come in and water down our only shot at a game in our niche with their "Fallout" gameplay then you can go play Planetside. Its much easier for you to do that, then post a thread trying to make our game into a medieval Fallout.
So no, I dont want a medieval fallout. Can you close this thread?
(also for something as important as combat, I'd rather them stick to a traditional RPG tab targetted based system as opposed to the newest hottest thing on the market like we, again have with GW2.
You can quote UO and Baldur's gate all you want, but wasnt that 2.5D?
Also Fallout isnt a MMORPG neither was Baldurs gate.
I just don't see why you want to come into this game, and put in a system that is already in place in tons of other games. I played Kingdoms of Amalur but its a console single player game.
You are comparing apples to oranges is what I want to say.
The point I was trying to make was that many rpgs, classic and new, do NOT use the tab-target and system like you have in mmorpgs, IE EQ, DAOC, WoW, etc.
Phantasy star? Final Fantasy? Those were turn based combat systems, NOTHING like DAOC, or your usual "mmo" style combat. I do not get why you list them and talk about the others as though they support your point of view when they dont' even follow what you want? Also Phantasy Star Online , completely different kind of combat between it and the older phantasy star games on the genesis (which I loved).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biTq-VkGLGc
There is a video of the new PHantasy Star Online 2, do you see that? It uses free aiming.
You talk as though the main mmo style combat (tab-target lock/hotkey setup) is the definition of rpgs, and I'm trying to point out that rpgs have had mayn different combat systems that don't rely on that.
Phantasy star's combat, is not like DAOC, but they are both rpgs. Ultima Online's combat is nothing like either of them, but it is an rpg, Vampire: TMB is not like any of them, and it's an rpg as well.
So why do you feel that having free aim makes an rpg, no longer an rpg? My point is that combat systems, being free aim or having a target lock like in most other mmo's, do not make them an rpg or not an rpg. Do you not see this?
how am I comparing Apples to Oranges when the combat systems in many of the BEST rpgs of all time were different from one onother? As I've tried to point ot to you, combat systems do not make an rpg an rpg. Free aim, or target lock, or real time, or turn based, doesn't mean a game is an rpg or not an rpg, you seem to be hung up on free aim making a game no longer an rpg, as though fps games have some kind of monopoly and copyright on free aim systems when they do not.
This entire thread, and the whole forum discussion on the combat system that people would lilke to see in CU are our own opinions. I made this thread to try and list why I like Free aim and a more "actiony" focused combat system in RPGS, not in fps games, or other genres, but Role Playing Games.
You have your own opinion, and I respect that, you're entitled to it. However I have mine and you obviously don't respect it and think you're opinion is the only right one.
You don't like Free aim, I understand that, I respect that. I prefer free aim, but you don't think I should be able to voice my opinion on this forum for some reason, and I don't get why you feel I can't have my own opinion or any o fthe other free aim supporters.
in the end Mark will go with what combat system he wants and feels that's best for the game, I'm just voicing my opinion on things I'd like and feel that other free-aim combat people would like to see from a combat system and tried to provide some detailed and constrictive ideas.
Regardless of how it ends up, I do hope it's good, and we both enjoy it in our own ways.
Not at all. I'll try to back up and take it back to a macro view.
The majority of the people who are interested in CU are DAOC fans. Their fanbase core is probably going to be DAOC fans. So I think they should take out all the stuff that made people quit in droves, which have been listed on other threads (buffbots, TOA (PvE heavyness), etc) and keep what made it awesome.
I don't see why you would want to mess with this part is my question to you. This is something if changed or done incorrectly will dissapoint everyone. I dont think many people will play this game and say aww crap its tab targetting like DAOC, I'm going to quit and not play this game. I really think that would be a rare rare case. Nor do I believe people who played DAOC woke up one day and said, "aww man tab targetting sucks, I'm going to quit this game."
So the point I'm trying to say is, dont change or overhaul a part of the game that most people didn't mind in DAOC much less didnt drive people away.
I can guarantee you if you mess with an important part of this game, like with the targetting, it will dissapoint many players. I dunno. The point is too much to lose and little reward to be gained. I guess I see these "innovative" people who tinker with success as being the people who brought us that spin around/hurricane ability in WAR or the punt ability from WAR. Do you want more of that experimentation? I don't. Don't mess with success, but remove all of the bad stuff that drove people away in masses over the years. (and no, no one went away in droves cuz of the targetting system)
Basically, you don't have much to gain by tinkering with the targetting system and making it free aim but you have a lot to lose because the core playerbase of this game is used to/wants tab based targetting.
I mean, you might be right, maybe Mark will make it aim based, but I hope not, I'd be deeply dissapointed.
Free aim has no place in large scale combat imo. It's great for small scale fighting though. There was already a thread on this... curious why we're making a post about this again when tab target won by such a large margin.
From the free aim games I've seen the ability selection feels lacking. Then again I prefer turn based over real time because I feel it limits strategy as well, so my bias runs deep
Well said.
I really don't see much diference btw the two, some say free aim is faster and all, tera is there to tell you otherwise, combat in tera is slower then in aion (who use a tab target).
I also never get it why people like to make posts for it here on MMORPG and not in the game forums and or hope for you get in the alpha and hope your opnion will make any diference in the game, also only time they are more willing to read players opnions is during alphas, after that is more jsut to fix things.
I don't really understand why these posts are around, theres no way this game is going to have a targetting system different than DAOC if it expects to succeed. You don't go after the DAOC player base promising them a game so close to it and change the combat system.
So please stop wasting time with these posts, its so sad seeing them.
Also, as for the youtube clip in the original post ... You seriously want a combat system like that with 200v200 people fighting around a keep? It's so ridiculous I can't even describe how stupid of an idea that is.
Ozek - DAOC
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He s after the DAOC crowd, and knows if he can bring back the feel of the good old RvR days, he ll make good money. He s not after a huge following, if it happens well good, if not he knows he ll make a good amount off of it, from the old DAOC crowd.
That said, it won t have GW2/TERA style at all. You may as well just slap the poeple in the face that he s aiming to get now.
I know of 3 people living in my house that wouldn t try it if it s like that. As of now all 3 are going to try it, with DAOC style combat.
Mouse + keyboard is just an awkward input system for action focused combat. At least, I've always had much more success in those types of games on consoles using controllers. Not saying it can't be done but even the better implementations of it have always felt clunky to me... even using game controllers many implementations feel forced.
I also play sports games on consoles--mostly the EA NHL hockey series. I don't know how many years it took them, but it was many years before they finally created a fluid intuitive control and aim system...that has only really happened in the last couple of years.
Tab-targetting may lack the extra simulation of realism but at least it's easy to implement and MMOers are all very familiar with it.
Add friendly-fire to a free-aim action system and large RvR fights could be quite comical...when they're not being frustrating, that is.
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why keyboard and mouse is not good? I find the keyboard mouse far better then any controller, more commands faster response and more precise,
also saying GW2 is the same as tera is kinda wrong, gw2 is kinda of a hibrid per see, you can still hit people without the target but you can and will use the target to make the things work
Mark has already stated what his target demographic is. He wants to get back to the roots of MMORPGs, removing many of the "conveniences" that came about over time which ultimately, in my opinion, trivialized the games and made communities more difficult to create and maintain. He wants to make things a little less forgiving, a little less easy, and try to bring back the things that made those older games so amazing in the first place. This is why I am not very worried about him implementing a free aim-style combat system.
But, some people just resist change no matter what, even for no good reason. Some just aren't able or refuse to adapt, and they ultimately get left behind, quit, and go somewhere else. Even if the targeting system wasn't one that I liked initially, I would still at least give this game a chance because it promises virtually everything that I want and miss in an MMORPG.
Honestly, the most constructive suggestion I can make is the following: stop arguing over the system.
I don't mean to sound flippant, but as has been stated over and over and over, time and time again, the game is intended to target the old DAoC audience. Tab-targetting (or click and target) will be part of the game. I'd say that it is possible there will be some hybridization with some ground-target abilities or perhaps some "free-aim" abilities, but the game WILL USE a similar targetting system to DAoC at its core.
No, I'm not a close personal friend of MJ. No, I'm not in the development meetings. No, I'm not clairvoyant. But I can read and from everything I've read, MJ will try to recreate the magic that was DAoC. A complete departure from the fundamental system of play just doesn't make sense in order to accomplish that.
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