MMO's without PVP

Hyoukan · April 2005

I was thinking about this, and it seems to be coming up alot lately. MMORPG's with no PVP, and I start wondering why?

Now my question is why play a MMO if there's no PVP. If you're a roleplayer the answer is clear, you can make your own story and interweave your story with other player's, if you're into that kind of think you have almost unlimited entertainment in a world (lets say EQII). Let's say you're playing EQII and you're not a roleplayer, when you hit level cap what left is there to do? Raid? Lead a guild? Not much.

PVP enables someone who's wants more to create a real reputation for themselves within the game. Or for guilds to get real name recognition (I'm not saying this is impossible without PVP). What do non RP'ers play a game for? You have the initial leveling up, but if that's gone, there's not much left in the game.

I don't know what's up with the trend of having no PVP in games, but I do think the PVP is the key thing they need to be working on to really lock in their costomers and give them a reason to stay.

Why do your play your MMO?

Edit: Also I think unlimited levels is a great way to give players extra motivation to play a game. I think it would enable someone to really make an identity for themselves as one of the best, the best example I can think of is Balmung from .hack//, give players the chance to become Lore or Legend within the game. AO based items off players, that was a pretty cool step forward.

stav1 · April 2005

I agree.

Although i think PvP needs to be realised in a more sophisticated way than it has been. Its got to be an integral part of the economy, politics and society of a game. Rather than a frag fest with no consequences.

Saigonshakes · April 2005

PVP is really hit or miss. If it's done well it makes a good game great but if it's done poorly it can really kill a game. I would rather play a game with no PVP than bad pvp. I do think pvp can add a sense of "epicness" (pretty sure thats not a word lol) to a game. I like what L2 did with the castle raids but overall their pvp ws pretty much garbage. I can't wait for an MMO with PVP done to it's full potential.

kishe · April 2005

I haven't found any single MMORPG with pvp that would have been balanced...only some what has been "less unbalanced"

Unbalanced PvP can mean the death of MMORPG so including PvP in MMORPG is always a gamble.

It's 200% easier to invent PvP in games like Counter Strike than in MMORPG.

Hyoukan · April 2005

Originally posted by Saigonshakes

PVP is really hit or miss. If it's done well it makes a good game great but if it's done poorly it can really kill a game. I would rather play a game with no PVP than bad pvp. I do think pvp can add a sense of "epicness" (pretty sure thats not a word lol) to a game. I like what L2 did with the castle raids but overall their pvp ws pretty much garbage. I can't wait for an MMO with PVP done to it's full potential.

Yeah great point, one think that I think can be done is have consentual PvP to compliment open pvp areas and guildvguild raids. Consentual is great, for example two guilds can declare war on eachother, after this the two or more guilds, or two or more alliances can have open PVP on eachother. This way the people that want open pvp can accomidate themselves (I think this was somewhat shown in EvE).

And with area's that are full on pvp like guild bases or "points of power" area's that you capture, blah blah, get buffs from it can defend. And "disputed" areas where open PvP can be.

Ways to suit non pvpers and pvpers alike.

Hyoukan · April 2005

Originally posted by kishe

I haven't found any single MMORPG with pvp that would have been balanced...only some what has been "less unbalanced"
Unbalanced PvP can mean the death of MMORPG so including PvP in MMORPG is always a gamble.
It's 200% easier to invent PvP in games like Counter Strike than in MMORPG.

That's a good point too, I dont think it can be helped much.

When you think of traditional roles, where do you see a "Cleric/Healer" type? Probably as a back up. You dont see them slaughtering hoards of enemies. No matter what I think certain classes will have to be in groups to participate in PVP. Some will be able to go on their own.

I do think alot of MMOG's need to refine their idea of roles though, sometimes they make classes that just dont work out in pvp, like "buffers". Why drag along a buffer and fill up your groups slots when you can just grab buffs from them, then leave?

Hyoukan · April 2005

Originally posted by Zizywa

Originally posted by Hyoukan

Now my question is why play a MMO if there's no PVP...
... when you hit level cap what left is there to do? Raid? Lead a guild? Not much...
...Why do your play your MMO?

MMORPGs are my favorite games and I never ever pvp.

I play because:

- I love to play together with thousands of people from allover the world
- I love to explore huge virtual worlds
- I love to quest
- I love to pvm
- I love to craft/trade/sell
- I love in game housing
- I love to help other players
- I love to interact with guilds
- I love in game events
- I love in game socializing, making city councils, in game market days etc
- I love GM events
- I love to roleplay now and then

Once I hit the level-cap most of above can still be done, plus there are usually expansions which adds new areas, levels, AA-points and so on.

I agree, but I do think more can be done with this, I think there need to be a huge expansion on how players can effect the world (not neccesarily pvp). For example you mentioned city councils. Why can't there be GM(or sub-GM, player GM's) run guilds, like the cities army, and revieve dynamic tasks from their officers, and climb or fall in the ranks based on their actions, or be involved in the monarchy. Things like that. I think this would definately help in propelling roleplay/storyline/ and over all atmosphere of the game.

Hyoukan · April 2005

Originally posted by Zizywa

Actually this worked very well in Ultima Online. The town of my choice was Moonglow. Moonglow had (still has?) it's own city council made up of members from different guilds. They vote for a major each year and they created their own city guard with ranks and all.

But it was all roleplaying of course.
For some reason things like this doesn't seem to happen in level games like EverQuest and the like...

It would be interesting if it was supported by the game rules itself though like you suggest. *pounders*

I THINK Darkfall is working on and idea like that, I'm not %100 on it though.

Greatness · April 2005

100% PvP is best for me(Like Lineage 2)! No offense but I HATE carebear games, just my opinion. That is why I love Lineage 2.

Saigonshakes · April 2005

It really does come down tho your personal preferences. Theirs quite a few of us who find mucj enjoyment out of non pvp games but I can also see why people love it as well.

Xiaoki · April 2005

Doing things right in MMOs takes too much time and effort. Or if it is right it's too hard to implement on a massive level.

WoW was going to have an Honor system with it's PvP but it was too hard to implement properly. The Honor system would give you points for fighting people near your level and take away points for fighting people far below your level. In your points got too low then even your own towns guards would attack you as if you were of the other faction. Great idea just will never be in the game.

The player council idea from UO is really cool but stuff like that can be ruined with either too many or too few participating. I remember SWG was going to have player towns and player buerocrats, which was a great idea on paper. The buerocrats didn't make launch along with player towns then not enough people did it when it was in then it got all screwed to hell.

Consentual PvP is in most MMOs but it's usually just there to shut up people who can't live without it. Consentual PvP is fine and all but it has zero purpose, you get absolutely nothing from it. It alone won't keep you playing the game weeks and months after you get to the max level.

What play mechanics work for PvP won't necessary work for PvE and vice versa. So, when a game starts balancing classes for PvP it ruins PvE which pisses off about 90% of the games players and then the game goes down the crapper because no one is playiing it anymore. I guess that's why Guild Wars will work in this aspect because in it PvP will come first and PvE is second.

PvP has been done good then later messed up, it's ruined otherwise good games, it's there in most games but useless and it always causes flame wars on message boards.

zoey121 · April 2005

There are so many gamers that have a bad taste in there gaming adventures when pvp is thrown into the mix. From gank squads to squables

I truely beleive (balance in an internet /pc setting is a myth)

From compaines that put artifical lag to make it "alls fair" to any class ever beaten and the players spending more time crying about "nerf them they beat me" can ruin even the best intensions.

Whiners that get super loud have caused many imblances and changed game play.

I have no problem with daoc style ( arena area fronetier area) where it is clearly marked if you go there that is what you will find. But as a gamer I do not want gank squads punishing new be areas either while folks are still learning the game.

In several cases games were not released with pvp but added it at a latter date. I do not mind pvp servers, or clearly defined areas, but there are tons of gamers that just do not mind it not being there.

Wharg0ul · April 2005

Hey, I love to roleplay. But that doesn't mean I can't roleplay as I PvP. ::::02::

Hyoukan · April 2005

I dont think it'd be that hard to implement this stuff.

I appreciate it and think it's great to see both side of the spectrum.

Let's take the GM guilds with advancement and stuff. What do you do to make this work? First off it's a glorified guild, so a basic guild template with minor modifications would work, like more ranks, things like that. Second you have a Sub-GM, even a non paid player (they had these in AO called ARK "advisors"), you make sure their over 18, and interview them. You put them at the top rank in one of these guilds and have them write some extra story and self made missions to help along the players. And of course you have a GM check in periodically on the Sub-GM to make sure they're being fair. As far as effort is going, I dont think it'd be that hard.

As for consentual, like I said, I think this would be a great thing to compliment open pvp like open pvp areas, guild castle assaults, points that guilds can control for buffs and stuff ect. I think that consentual pvp would be a great way for a prior non-pvp game to get into it, who cares if some people dont like it? It's not required. Now the way I think would be best to do the consentual isn't /duel, it's like have your guild be able to declare (consentual pvp with the restriction of taking 24 hours to cancel to prevent some annoyances) with other guilds, or have something to enable open pvp with any other guilds with open pvp, also have the option of adding friendly guilds.

As for balancing, you're completely right. Guild Wars and EQII are kinda the two things that got me into writing this topic. Guild Wars, from what I've seen, has the most perfect take on PVP in a MMOG I've ever seen, where as EQII has nothin.

firemagic · April 2005

Originally posted by Xiaoki
WoW was going to have an Honor system with it's PvP but it was too hard to implement properly. The Honor system would give you points for fighting people near your level and take away points for fighting people far below your level. In your points got too low then even your own towns guards would attack you as if you were of the other faction. Great idea just will never be in the game.

The honor system as you describe it will indeed never be in the game, as it encouraged "reverse griefing", but there will be an honor system, probably in the next patch.

My two cents on the topic: PvE is a means to an end. You fight simplistic, predicable mobs in order to improve your character to test your skills against real people who present a real challenge. I mean who'd want to play an online FPS where you can only go up against bots?

DerfelCadarn · April 2005

All mmorpg games need PvP, it is the main perk of playing with thousands of people online. Just fighting NPCs and Bots although sometimes necessary, it get really old after awhile. Really, even if it 1 pvp server or duels/guild v. guild- how does this effect you carebears?

RemyVorender · April 2005

I was once the "i dont care if an MMO has PvP or not" type of ppl....until i actually played a game with PvP in it. Now i can't play an MMO that doesn't have it. PvP adds a layer of depth to the game and frankly just something fun to break the monotony of grinding. Nothing gets your heart pumping in a game like PvP.....mob fights? yawn....

However i HATE free for all PvP. i love to PvP as long as its when i'm damn good and ready.

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