The trouble with law governing virtual gear is it would need the full cooperation of the game managers, with regard to keeping accurate, verifiable data bases of everyones past, current and future stuff. It would need to be able to track legitimate transfers of stuff in order to seperate them from theft etc.
I agree with Owyn that this may place just enough restrictions and requirements on game makers to cause them not to bother to make games. Because its not just items its characters too.
For example back in the bad old days of years 1 and 2 of UO things were pretty "open slather" with regard to accounts being hacked and stolen etc. A buddy of mine was in a net cafe and saw someone playing UO, he watched them type thier u/n and p/w and promptly went home and stole the account.
How in heavens name does the original owner of the acount prove anything ?? Back then he couldnt, my buddy stripped the account and sold it off. This stuff has been going on forever and its tough to see how it would change without destroying the industry.
The trouble with law makers is they generally make laws on topics they know nothing about. This will be no exception as I doubt too many people in either the US, Chinese or Australian Governments are online gamers.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by Harafnir The real point here is that people need to learn that having an emotional value to an imaginary item does not mean it has a real value in itself. it is still an imaginary item, and is not worth more than your imaginary friend "Bob" who lives in your pocket. And believe me, if you killed someone because they stomped on your imaginary friend "Bob", then you would be locked away... Seriously... Anyone with such an emotional bond creating a real life value to an imaginary sword... is a person who would really need, but will never have, a girlfriend.
But these virtual items do have real money values, just take a look on Ebay.
Doesn't that make them real?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Harafnir The real point here is that people need to learn that having an emotional value to an imaginary item does not mean it has a real value in itself. it is still an imaginary item, and is not worth more than your imaginary friend "Bob" who lives in your pocket. And believe me, if you killed someone because they stomped on your imaginary friend "Bob", then you would be locked away... Seriously... Anyone with such an emotional bond creating a real life value to an imaginary sword... is a person who would really need, but will never have, a girlfriend.
The problem with that view is that "mmorpg gear" is exactly as imaginary as your bank account..Or the value of the money you put into it.(What you didn't really think they kept your unbacked peices of paper lieing around did you?)
Game can be redefined. It is a subjective term. If I own 50,000$ worth of ingame gear, and find an assassin willing to kill you for 50,000$, can I not then PK you with my sword of Ownz0r??
What is a game and what is not a game? Is dateing a game? Some would say yes and some would say no. "Get over it dude your sister's virginity was just a game!".
If people are willing to pay for something, it has value. For enough value some are willing to kill.
Originally posted by Xira I lost0rz all my starz0rz:(
Dont take any of mine or Ill hunt you down and kill you
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I think it was in Singapore that the first irl pking tok place... This scared the living shit outta me, If games become that affective over your real life the world is going to hell ...
"They watch the sun disappear in the horizon, hopeful it will return and not go supernova causing them instant suffocation and death" --The Mating Habits Of The Earthbound Human
Alot of ppl in this thread keep saying how sick the man who stabbed his in-game friend is, but how about you that see the death of a human beings life as a damn joke?
Originally posted by slak Alot of ppl in this thread keep saying how sick the man who stabbed his in-game friend is, but how about you that see the death of a human beings life as a damn joke?There are alot of sick people here aswell.
I usually end up finding the bitter humor in tragedies in my own life too. It's a coping mechanism because the world is otherwise too horrific to live in.
... This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Anything that decreases the surface overpopulation is a good thing.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
You could successfuly argue, in court, that he killed the guy over a $1000.00 value item. It's factually provable that you could get $1,000.00 USD for a in-game item. It's also factually provable that the person had 'posession' of the item. Therefore he could have obtained $1,000.00 USD for it.
Therefore, was the scam/theft of the item a 'theft' or not? I would say that 'yes', it was in fact a theft.
That doesn't justify killing the guy but it would deal a terrible blow to the gaming industry.
Once a court recognizes in-game property as having REAL value the game companies will start running into trouble. Because they can't cancel a game if they can get sued for thousands of dollars worth of lost "assets".
Scary eh?
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by slak Alot of ppl in this thread keep saying how sick the man who stabbed his in-game friend is, but how about you that see the death of a human beings life as a damn joke? There are alot of sick people here aswell.
Originally posted by Sketch Correct me if I'm wrong but the guy who had hes girlfriend arrested for deleting his game gear was a lineage player aswell wasn't he?...
Mental note: Stay the F away from lineage.
PS: hi all
Wrong game there, Genius....
But yes, stay away from Lineage
If for no other reason than it's boring as sin. As is it's successor... Lineage II
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Yeah... for something that has happend on a computer screen.
If that was to happen to me, then I would peobably place in on KOS in-game instead of out of character. But most of the time, it would most likley to happen where the player sells a virtual item for in-game credits instead of cash.
Besides the MMORPG I play, it's against the TOS to sell virtual items for real cash.
Originally posted by Elnator Actually a very interesting topic.You could successfuly argue, in court, that he killed the guy over a $1000.00 value item. It's factually provable that you could get $1,000.00 USD for a in-game item. It's also factually provable that the person had 'posession' of the item. Therefore he could have obtained $1,000.00 USD for it.Therefore, was the scam/theft of the item a 'theft' or not? I would say that 'yes', it was in fact a theft.That doesn't justify killing the guy but it would deal a terrible blow to the gaming industry. Once a court recognizes in-game property as having REAL value the game companies will start running into trouble. Because they can't cancel a game if they can get sued for thousands of dollars worth of lost "assets".Scary eh?
Not really.
Because the player does not legally own anything that their character possesses. The company that owns the game owns those bits of information. Therefore any secondary market value they have does in fact belong to the company, NOT to the player who pays for an account.
That's why selling ingame items is flat-out illegal. You're selling something that does not belong to you, which is fraud. It's not too different from someone trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. They don't own it, therefore they cannot sell it - and if they try, they're breaking the law. If you notice, most "sales" of ingame goods have little disclaimers where they say they are "not charging for the item, but for the time it took to acquire the item". That's the loophole currently in use.
Game companies don't need to worry about ingame property having secondary market value, because THEY own it all, not the players. That's why you can't go to the police/courts about theft of "your" game property.
Originally posted by Etaanaru Originally posted by slak Alot of ppl in this thread keep saying how sick the man who stabbed his in-game friend is, but how about you that see the death of a human beings life as a damn joke? There are alot of sick people here aswell. Suggested reading: The Things They Carried "Zapped while zipping."
That was a great book, by the end, it really made me rethink life and war.
Originally posted by Elnator Actually a very interesting topic.You could successfuly argue, in court, that he killed the guy over a $1000.00 value item. It's factually provable that you could get $1,000.00 USD for a in-game item. It's also factually provable that the person had 'posession' of the item. Therefore he could have obtained $1,000.00 USD for it.Therefore, was the scam/theft of the item a 'theft' or not? I would say that 'yes', it was in fact a theft.That doesn't justify killing the guy but it would deal a terrible blow to the gaming industry. Once a court recognizes in-game property as having REAL value the game companies will start running into trouble. Because they can't cancel a game if they can get sued for thousands of dollars worth of lost "assets".Scary eh?
Not really.
Because the player does not legally own anything that their character possesses. The company that owns the game owns those bits of information. Therefore any secondary market value they have does in fact belong to the company, NOT to the player who pays for an account. [/quote]
Hopw much longer will the legal system contuine to view these things this way? It's already changeing in some more tech savvy countries, Korea for instance, where in-game theft IS theft. It's just a matter of time before it happens here too.(here can be anywhere)
Quite simply if something has cash value and can be sold ownership can be claimed. This has never been tested by the courts in the US because quite frankly MMORPG companies are scared shitless of them comeing down the wrong way. They go wayyy out on a limb when threat of legal action is made.
Currently the law agrees with you in most countries, the game owners own all in game items, except in some cases where ownership is transferred(Magic the gathering online comes to mind).
Game companies don't need to worry about ingame property having secondary market value, because THEY own it all, not the players. That's why you can't go to the police/courts about theft of "your" game property.
Try it in korea or japan and you'll get a hearing.
Comments
The trouble with law governing virtual gear is it would need the full cooperation of the game managers, with regard to keeping accurate, verifiable data bases of everyones past, current and future stuff. It would need to be able to track legitimate transfers of stuff in order to seperate them from theft etc.
I agree with Owyn that this may place just enough restrictions and requirements on game makers to cause them not to bother to make games. Because its not just items its characters too.
For example back in the bad old days of years 1 and 2 of UO things were pretty "open slather" with regard to accounts being hacked and stolen etc. A buddy of mine was in a net cafe and saw someone playing UO, he watched them type thier u/n and p/w and promptly went home and stole the account.
How in heavens name does the original owner of the acount prove anything ?? Back then he couldnt, my buddy stripped the account and sold it off. This stuff has been going on forever and its tough to see how it would change without destroying the industry.
The trouble with law makers is they generally make laws on topics they know nothing about. This will be no exception as I doubt too many people in either the US, Chinese or Australian Governments are online gamers.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
But these virtual items do have real money values, just take a look on Ebay.
Doesn't that make them real?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
The problem with that view is that "mmorpg gear" is exactly as imaginary as your bank account..Or the value of the money you put into it.(What you didn't really think they kept your unbacked peices of paper lieing around did you?)
Game can be redefined. It is a subjective term. If I own 50,000$ worth of ingame gear, and find an assassin willing to kill you for 50,000$, can I not then PK you with my sword of Ownz0r??
What is a game and what is not a game? Is dateing a game? Some would say yes and some would say no. "Get over it dude your sister's virginity was just a game!".
If people are willing to pay for something, it has value. For enough value some are willing to kill.
I lost0rz all my starz0rz:(
---------------------------------------------
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
"They watch the sun disappear in the horizon, hopeful it will return and not go supernova causing them instant suffocation and death"
--The Mating Habits Of The Earthbound Human
Ashen Empires AKA Dransik|Click me to play Warriors2|Questionable Content
Alot of ppl in this thread keep saying how sick the man who stabbed his in-game friend is, but how about you that see the death of a human beings life as a damn joke?
There are alot of sick people here aswell.
Simple:
It's along way way
I didn't know him
and it's on the internet
I usually end up finding the bitter humor in tragedies in my own life too. It's a coping mechanism because the world is otherwise too horrific to live in.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
But it did have a real value, around $1000
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars"
- Oscar Wilde
unfortunately those games are only about killing, gaining power and being rich
no wonder if one crazy ill thinks hes still in the game
Actually a very interesting topic.
You could successfuly argue, in court, that he killed the guy over a $1000.00 value item. It's factually provable that you could get $1,000.00 USD for a in-game item. It's also factually provable that the person had 'posession' of the item. Therefore he could have obtained $1,000.00 USD for it.
Therefore, was the scam/theft of the item a 'theft' or not? I would say that 'yes', it was in fact a theft.
That doesn't justify killing the guy but it would deal a terrible blow to the gaming industry.
Once a court recognizes in-game property as having REAL value the game companies will start running into trouble. Because they can't cancel a game if they can get sued for thousands of dollars worth of lost "assets".
Scary eh?
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Lololol, HILARIOUS....
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Played- Runescape, Conquer
Tested- EQ, RYL, Freeworld
Suggested reading: The Things They Carried
"Zapped while zipping."
Correct me if I'm wrong but the guy who had hes girlfriend arrested for deleting his game gear was a lineage player aswell wasn't he?...
Mental note: Stay the F away from lineage.
PS: hi all
Hey sketch did u even read it?
This happened in Legend of Mir...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Played- Runescape, Conquer
Tested- EQ, RYL, Freeworld
Wrong game there, Genius....
But yes, stay away from Lineage
If for no other reason than it's boring as sin. As is it's successor... Lineage II
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
My bad, flaked out for a second. and either misread or wasn't paying attention.
Yeah... for something that has happend on a computer screen.
If that was to happen to me, then I would peobably place in on KOS in-game instead of out of character. But most of the time, it would most likley to happen where the player sells a virtual item for in-game credits instead of cash.
Besides the MMORPG I play, it's against the TOS to sell virtual items for real cash.
Because the player does not legally own anything that their character possesses. The company that owns the game owns those bits of information. Therefore any secondary market value they have does in fact belong to the company, NOT to the player who pays for an account.
That's why selling ingame items is flat-out illegal. You're selling something that does not belong to you, which is fraud. It's not too different from someone trying to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
They don't own it, therefore they cannot sell it - and if they try, they're breaking the law. If you notice, most "sales" of ingame goods have little disclaimers where they say they are "not charging for the item, but for the time it took to acquire the item". That's the loophole currently in use.
Game companies don't need to worry about ingame property having secondary market value, because THEY own it all, not the players. That's why you can't go to the police/courts about theft of "your" game property.
Owyn
Commander, Defenders of Order
http://www.defendersoforder.com
That was a great book, by the end, it really made me rethink life and war.
[quote]Originally posted by Owyn
Not really.[b]
Because the player does not legally own anything that their character possesses. The company that owns the game owns those bits of information. Therefore any secondary market value they have does in fact belong to the company, NOT to the player who pays for an account.
[/quote]
Hopw much longer will the legal system contuine to view these things this way? It's already changeing in some more tech savvy countries, Korea for instance, where in-game theft IS theft. It's just a matter of time before it happens here too.(here can be anywhere)
Quite simply if something has cash value and can be sold ownership can be claimed. This has never been tested by the courts in the US because quite frankly MMORPG companies are scared shitless of them comeing down the wrong way. They go wayyy out on a limb when threat of legal action is made.
Currently the law agrees with you in most countries, the game owners own all in game items, except in some cases where ownership is transferred(Magic the gathering online comes to mind).
Try it in korea or japan and you'll get a hearing.