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DEs vs Investigation quests
Kuppa
Member UncommonPosts: 3,292
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/29/leaderboard-dynamic-events-vs-investigation-quests/
Found this topic in massively to be VERY interesting. These two are attempts to mix things up in mmos lately. Which do you prefer?
Poll is the same as the one in the article. I added "Keep my standard quests alone!"
Comments
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Instead of asking that question why not ask why games do not have dynamic investigation missions? The drawback to pubs is repetitive play and farming. The game thrusts content at you to save people the trouble of finding stuff to do themselves. Pub systems will go down in history as a failure no matter how big or complex they are. Investigation missions engage the player or players (as they could easily be group oriented if designed for it. Some element of this is coming in TSW in the future) and force them to think and play the game instead of being the game playing them. The drawback for those is replayibility. You either flat out never get to do it again or you simply know exactly what to do making it nothing different than rinse and repeat quests.
What is needed is a way to make players be engaged like in investigations and for them to be different each and every time. TSW was a great concept and a great game for what it is. It's issue is being too niche or perhaps simply too specialized. It uses real world lore to drive it's investigations. An amazing experience would be a fantasy game using it's own lore for dymanic investigations. Entire groups or even factions could embark on missions they have to figure out using in game lore which further increases a sense of immersion and have tons of random elements pulled from a complex lore that rarely repeats. This could be system generated or even player generated within a more complex sandbox game. Each and every time this could be a dramatically different quest/event. You could gate content of all types by forcing players to actually figure the world out they are in. Some games have barely touched on this and most never do.
I keep saying this like a broken record: PVE drives everything. Pve IS the game. PVE IS the world you play in. It is the interaction with the virtual world creation being attempted. It also drives pvp. Without a theme that drives creation of the gear you wear, the world you play in, the concept behind the powers you use, what you fight over, etc you are nothing more than stick figures running around whacking each other. PVE defines the entire reason you are there. It can do far far more by making players actually have to think of why they are there through far more interactive mechanics.
You stay sassy!
I hope some future mmo does its pve with a combination of gw2s des and tsws single large multistage quest mechanic instead of the hearts.
E.g. gw2 would be better with the big quests (not just investigations) instead of the hearts
Tsw would be better with des instead of the grey collection quests.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I want to put my square peg in its round hole! why resist me?
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
dynamic does not mean permanent or long lasting changes
dy·nam·ic
2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress:
DE's are in a continuous state of change it just happens to repeat but if you go to a location you will not always find the same exact event happening at the same exact time each time.. Yes i do wish there was more cause and effect options in the events but they are still dynamic events
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
That is the entire issue with current pubs mechanics. They are scripted. How could they be dymanic when they are scripted? At any point the event simply repeats from stage 1 it is no longer dynamic.
We need to start seeing actual AI in mmos. Pve factions and mobs should have their own agenda. They should be driven to reach goals in whatever means possible. If you whipe out a spawn camp of monsters then they should spawn again within a teritorial area and, left to their own resources, try to reclaim what was lost. If their desires are for greater conquest then they should constantly be pushing to their goal. Other mobs and players would all be potential enemies. Basically mobs need politics even if incredibly simple. Only then can interactions be truly dynamic and unpredictable. Players could also gain amazing insight and gameplay by learning more about the lore behind these npc factions.
Until AI driven mobs become smarter we will only ever see scripted events maskerading as dynamic content.
You stay sassy!
you do realize AI is scripted as well? there is no true free thinking AI .. all computer AI in games is a program scripted with variables to react to a variety of situations...
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
That is the entire issue with current pubs mechanics. They are scripted. How could they be dymanic when they are scripted? At any point the event simply repeats from stage 1 it is no longer dynamic.
We need to start seeing actual AI in mmos. Pve factions and mobs should have their own agenda. They should be driven to reach goals in whatever means possible. If you whipe out a spawn camp of monsters then they should spawn again within a teritorial area and, left to their own resources, try to reclaim what was lost. If their desires are for greater conquest then they should constantly be pushing to their goal. Other mobs and players would all be potential enemies. Basically mobs need politics even if incredibly simple. Only then can interactions be truly dynamic and unpredictable. Players could also gain amazing insight and gameplay by learning more about the lore behind these npc factions.
Until AI driven mobs become smarter we will only ever see scripted events maskerading as dynamic content.
SkyNet coming soon to a town near you- 12/21/12?Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
Yes, but I'm not referring to the lack of effect they have on the game world (although they were overhyped in that respect, too) I'm referring to how they don't change. They are the same exact thing over and over on a loop. The only way they change, is if they fail.. and then a few minutes later, they start back at the beginning and repeat the same way again, anyhow.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
lol
I'm curious what people think current AI in computer games is
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
dynamic does not mean permanent or long lasting changes
dy·nam·ic
2. Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress:
DE's are in a continuous state of change it just happens to repeat but if you go to a location you will not always find the same exact event happening at the same exact time each time.. Yes i do wish there was more cause and effect options in the events but they are still dynamic events
Yes, but I'm not referring to the lack of effect they have on the game world (although they were overhyped in that respect, too) I'm referring to how they don't change. They are the same exact thing over and over.
arent the investigation quests the same exact thing every time too?Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
which is an unfortunate design decision they made to cater to a mass group of players.. you see how angry people get when they can't get a damn halloween skin.. now imagine if people missed all these cool events like village destructions and massive dragons taking over areas.. the forums would be going crazy with peopel complaining how they are pissed they missed so and so event
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
I sure as hell didn't vote for investigation quests. but I think some people prefer them, because GW2s just aren't as impressive as they could have been. It's like choosing between a candy bar, and a half-baked cake.. the cake might have more potential, but that doesn't matter to many people, if as it stands, it's just a gooey mess.
Guess a more accurate analogy would be that anet decided it was too risky to try anything more dynamic or unpredictable, so they opted to use a no-bake jello cake, and hoped no one would notice.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I did enjoy some of the investigation missions a lot, but as an actual mechanic there really isn't much there. And to be honest, TSW isn't the first game to have those kinds of quests, but the amount and manner in which they provided them is definitely unique.
Many of the larger MMOs, including GW2, have some quests similar to the investigations. For example getting the pages for the holloween books in GW2 is a type of investigation mission. You have clues, and you need to figure out what they mean in order to complete the quest.
That said, I still have to give it to the dynamic events system. It's not only a very new & unique mechanic, but it takes the old questing model and adds a lot more replay value to them, as well as allows for some pretty interesting things to happen in the game if you keep your eyes open.
- Ultimately though, I'd like to see more of both going forward. Hands down dynamic events are much more engaging than the old kill X quest lists. And having more puzzle-oriented quests are also a lot of fun (for me at least). Overall I think having more variety is always the better option.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Surely you don't like the old system?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Honestly, they both have their strengths and weaknesses and I wouldnt mind having both.
Dynamic Events are a great idea, but I dont feel they were anywhere near as well executed as they should have been, they should have a much bigger impact on the world, be randomly generated based on various variables, interact better with one another and they should be much, much harder. Reclaiming a town is waaaay too easy, even solo. Dynamic Events were much more well done in games like Depths of Peril.
Investigations are a good idea, and worked well in The Secret World. I would argue it was the game's strongest point.
Basically you wish for Anet that they started running well before they learned to crawl and walk.