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GW2 was my last hope for the genre....... so back to paper and pencil

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  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Member Posts: 1,857
    Originally posted by HorrorScope

    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

    Silly. PnP could never have 10,000 people sit at a table. This isn't even apples and oranges. I could name things PnP could never do that a mmo could.

    This could be looked at the same craving as "My first mmo", face it yesteryear is always better then the herenow, at least in our memories.

     

     

    I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

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  • YakkinYakkin Member Posts: 919
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

    Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678
    Originally posted by Enigmatus
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

    Maybe it's just me, but interaction and socialization only ever seems to be at it's most effective in small groups.

    No crap.  That's because you can't listen to 10 people talk and respond to them all.  Smaller groups mean you can give each person more attention.  Heck, movies with 10 main characters are always worse than ones with just a handful and some side characters here and there for flavor.  It's a similar principle.  There are limits to our ability to give things proper attention.

    It's part of why it is crazy to expect a PnP experience from an MMO.  They have fundamentally different approaches.

  • chryseschryses Member UncommonPosts: 1,453

    Very interesting thread.  I am to from that age of pen and paper where myself and friends would spend hours/days creating or walking through adventures.

    I feel its not so clear cut as you have stated though.  Modern living has made it exceptionally hard to get together physically and MMO's has plugged a gap that was left when we couldn't meet regularly for pen and paper games.

    MMO's IMO are not there to force people to group but to facilitate an environment to group.  GW2 like a lot of MMO's does this.  If you have close friends and you get on vent etc. You can still use the gaming world to have that interaction.  A few friends will go into Role playing mode on vent but always tongue in cheek which is fun.

    Interestingly some games like EVE have a great dynamic for grouping especially when mining.  Two MMO's that I will always feel fondly about are Vanguard and EVE.  There has been some weekends where all of us sat on vent and talked shite for hours whilst mining and crafting.  Good way to catch up.

    On a personal note, MMO's have been the inspiration I have needed to put pen to paper again. 

    I seriously here you though and I hope you have some fun with old school gaming :)  Once my life slowls down I will jump back in.

    (Why did you delete the game though? Its free, didn't feel like jumping in once in a while?)

  • heartlessheartless Member UncommonPosts: 4,993

    I don't know about the "no one chats." Just last night I had a very interesting conversation with a bunch of people. It started with falafels and gravited, like any conversation about falfel tends to, towards politics and how 'murica is the best. Sadly I missed the ending of the conversation because I started doing a particularly challenging jumping puzzle which required my undivided attention.

    The community is there. People chat in almost every zone. But the game is barely a week old and a community takes time to build itself. Out of all recent themeparks, GW2 provides the best tools for community building. I mean the whole PvE aspects is centered around community cooperation. However, no modern game will bring back the sense of community we had in the older games.

    The simple fact is that there are a whole lot more people playing these games now then there were during the late 90's early 00's, when UO and EQ were in their prime. Back then you had a few hundred thousand people playing MMOs, now WoW alone has 9 million accounts. Back then, it was a tightly knit group, now it's an unruly mob. Find a good guild and the sense of community will return. That's the only advice I can offer.

    I too am really looking forward to ArcheAge, as I hope that it will facilitate player interaction on a much grander scale. Not a big fan of anime-ish artstyle but if the game is good, I can look past the art.

    image

  • Deto123Deto123 Member Posts: 689
    Originally posted by Syno23
    Did you forget Dungeons, WvW, Dynamic Events, and what not. They all REQUIRE a group. So I dont know what you're talking about buddy.

    Only dungeons require a group, the rest no one even cares if you re there.

  • teakinatorteakinator Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Emeraq
    Originally posted by Tawn47
    Originally posted by teakinator

    I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.  As an old paper and pencil fuddy-duddy from the 1970s what is missing from GW2 (and it is missing from RIFT, WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and others) is the need to group for more than just raids or dungeons.  Grouping for regular grinding or epic quests creates lots of opportunities for meaningful and prolonged interaction, banter,  which lead to meaningful in-game friendships.With the elimination of a standalone healer class this downward slide away from grouping was the last straw for me. 

    Its all because of teamspeak / mumble / ventrillo etc....    if you want to socialise in an MMO, you gotta join a guild with a chat system.  This is not a problem with the design of MMO's.

    Yeah I have to agree, it's not a design flaw, developers can design a game that forces grouping all the time and you'll still not have the long lasting relationships because there will still be many players out there that form pick up groups to just get shit done, not to develop friendships.

    So, in my view the flaw is the player(s) either not joining a guild, or not getting to know others in their guild... Maybe OP should have had those four buddies he's going to PnP with play this game as well, the dungeons are, afterall, 5 man. 

    We always hates on the game, when plenty a time we should be hating on the players..

    Thanks for the comments (even the rude ones) and yes I understand the guild thing.  I was the guild master of a large EQ guild that was so close we traveller around the world once a year for in-person get-togethers.  The difference is that in EQ, I was forced to group to any content and it was through forced grouping that I met a ton of people and from that group, a core of close friendships developed AND THEN we formed the guild. 

    Yes I know that you need groups for dungeons but like another responder put on this thread you don't even remember their names.  WoW made it worse with the instant group thing so you didn't even have to say "hello". 

    So if the guild thing is the solution to my problem I would have to join a guild of strangers and hope that there are peope in the guild that are similar bent as me.  That is the difference... make friends via grouping, find the players that worked well with you both through conversation, time available for playing and play style and THEN FORM THE GUILD. 

    Anyway, like I said, I am not blasting GW2 but all post-EQ MMOs  and yes I believe it is a design flaw.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Originally posted by heartless

    I don't know about the "no one chats." Just last night I had a very interesting conversation with a bunch of people. It started with falafels and gravited, like any conversation about falfel tends to, towards politics and how 'murica is the best. Sadly I missed the ending of the conversation because I started doing a particularly challenging jumping puzzle which required my undivided attention.

    The community is there. People chat in almost every zone. But the game is barely a week old and a community takes time to build itself. Out of all recent themeparks, GW2 provides the best tools for community building. I mean the whole PvE aspects is centered around community cooperation. However, no modern game will bring back the sense of community we had in the older games.

    The simple fact is that there are a whole lot more people playing these games now then there were during the late 90's early 00's, when UO and EQ were in their prime. Back then you had a few hundred thousand people playing MMOs, now WoW alone has 9 million accounts. Back then, it was a tightly knit group, now it's an unruly mob. Find a good guild and the sense of community will return. That's the only advice I can offer.

    I too am really looking forward to ArcheAge, as I hope that it will facilitate player interaction on a much grander scale. Not a big fan of anime-ish artstyle but if the game is good, I can look past the art.

     

    It's rare to find that in today's MMO's because of the way they're designed. They design them in a way that promotes this fly by attitude in players, there's no need of actual social skills, or even basic communication skills at the base level. IN SWG you got no where playing this way, nor EQ, UO so on and so forth. Removing this is what allowed for mass appeal. ANy game based on mass appeal is going to feel generic on the social front IMO.

    (not directed at heartless's post) I've seen quite a few people suggest guild play for that old school feel, I have to disagree, for Guilds oriented toward those old games it's not at all the same. It feels like we're missing what made our cordination worth it, IE: The rest of the community. Our guild has basically given up at this point, we tried with TOR, we're not trying to move it to GW2 as in the end we forsee the same result.

    Until there's a good sandbox that takes a full on community approach, we'll be sitting it out as an official guild.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • solarinesolarine Member Posts: 1,203

    Yeah, these games are not going that way. Though you have to give it to GW2 in that at least it goes to some lengths to bring people together (WvW and dynamic events, for example). Only the random cooperations don't last and are largely silent.

    I'll agree that socializing in MMOS are becoming more and more a guild affair. Forced *is* bad, but it turns out players won't deal with each other at length when they don't have to. :)

  • teakinatorteakinator Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by StanlyStanko

    If you're going PnP, dig up some Shadowrun!

    Break from the cartoony high fantasy for awhile.

    I also DM Traveller Pencil and Paper too!

  • HorrorScopeHorrorScope Member UncommonPosts: 599
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    Originally posted by HorrorScope
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

    Silly. PnP could never have 10,000 people sit at a table. This isn't even apples and oranges. I could name things PnP could never do that a mmo could.

    This could be looked at the same craving as "My first mmo", face it yesteryear is always better then the herenow, at least in our memories.

     

     

    I disagree. You could have 10,000 people gaming in pen and paper... with the right tools. Why would you want to, though? With that many people, it becomes a mindless blob with very little social interaction . So, if you're going to name something that can't be done in PNP, name it.

    Speed of action. Inventory. Auction House. Several quests in que. Gathering. Tons of stuff really.

    One mentioned all these wodnerful things "you could do with PnP", but who ever did to those levels or levels mmo's allow for. I mention gathering/crafting. It's a very sound mechanic in a mmo. You visually see the resource you grab it. You put it in your inventory, later you work it or trade it for other needs. You end up with goods. To say that happens in a PnP? Ummm.... So how does that work, you are outside running quest, do you do a DM role on "Did I just see a Snozberry bush?". DM see's if he allows that, then roles. You many now have it. How often are you allowed to call for that role? When you get in dungeon are you rolling in there for mushrooms etc?

    I did some DnD back in the late 70's. It was basically the modules which where dungeon runs. Are people today creating worlds they PnP through with all these MMO options? I simply am not aware of that to any type of degree.

     

  • Ender4Ender4 Member UncommonPosts: 2,247

    You do realize Gary Gygax made D&D while sitting in a strip joint with a bunch of other loser friends of his and they had made multiple other failed games before finally hitting it big by basically copying lord of the rings. It is one of the crappier RPG made even though it obviously is one of the most influential ones(and one i love but I can at least be realistic about here). Lets not pretend he was some huge visionary that we should look to for advice on gaming.

  • EpicentEpicent Member UncommonPosts: 648
    old school pencil and paper games...........you know something........why hasn't any one made a paper and pencil video game yet. What I mean is you could have a level editor and dungeon master editor. And you could upload levels onto the game and other people could play it. Im sure it could be done and I think it would be a blast. Id def buy it.
  • EpicentEpicent Member UncommonPosts: 648
    actually check this out.   http://www.fantasygrounds.com/   this seems cool. Im gonna read on it for a bit.
  • avalon1000avalon1000 Member UncommonPosts: 790
    Originally posted by Nadia
    personally, guilds go a long way to making a difference w community

    This and map chat is quite active on the server I am on.

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 Member UncommonPosts: 719
    Originally posted by teakinator
    I will give GW2 great applause for a very polished gameplay experience but what is missing in mind (and RIFT had the same problem) is the community.  No one really chats and there is very little reason to group.

    GW2 has great community but you're doing it wrong. You're basically in a group with everyone who is close enough at the moment as you don't need to compete for mobs or loot. So /s is your party chat now. Switch to it and chat as much as you want.

    PnP games will always be different from MMOs because you generally play PnP with your friends, not with random people you just met on the street. But you *can* play MMOs like you would play PnP games - this simply requires the same effort from you and your RL friends. You need to schedule your play time, set up some voice chat, log in together and group up. In fact GW2 does more than any other MMO to facilitate this playstyle. You can play outside the scheduled time and you won't outlevel content you'll be grouping for next time because your level in GW2 is dynamically adjusted and you still get XP from lower level zones. 

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • teakinatorteakinator Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by rathalas22
    Ifeel for you OP. I went back to PnP about a year ago. I have much more fun with that than any of the recent MMORPGs, if you can even call them that anymore. The only issue with PnP is that you can't play whenever you want.  I hope it works out well for you.

    I do play PnP via PbP, which is a good way to slowly enjoy the RPing that MMOs have lost in between actual in-person gaming sessions.  

    The Obsidianportal is an excellent place to find a PbP campaign.

    http://www.obsidianportal.com/

  • wowfan1996wowfan1996 Member UncommonPosts: 719
    Originally posted by RebelScum99

    In before "It must be the server you're on, because on MY server everyone is very social and helpful!"  nonsense.  

    It *must* be the server, dude, because on Far Shiverpeaks EU everyone is social enough (without them becoming annoying) and helpful enough (without forcing me to look for places where I can finally solo something).

    MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).

  • GishgeronGishgeron Member Posts: 1,287

    I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

     

    Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

    image

  • aznxdreadfulaznxdreadful Member UncommonPosts: 21
    its called getting a GUILD. lol... if community is your problem find a guild mainly in tarnished coast server which is the unofficial RP server of USA, forgot the EU one but google guildwars2roleplayer and u can get it.
  • teakinatorteakinator Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    Gary Gygax once commented that he could never fully appreciate MMOs, because he said (paraphrasing) that the social interactions would be diminished when compared to actually being in a room with people. I agree with him, too. But also, pen and paper games allow you to literally do anything. You can throw sand in an enemy's eyes, forge a permanent alliance, start your own country, have children, change careers, lose a limb, become possessed, enter another plane of existence, go insane, etc etc etc. MMOs can never compete with that.

    Amen! That is exactly my feeling.

    I did use Vent in RIFT and WoW but just chatting without grouping is not the same thing.  Back in early WoW, when Crowd Control was critical to beating dungeons you HAD to chat before major fights.  Then Lich King came out and the dungeon and raid design eliminated the need for Crowd Control so nobody chatted or talked strategy in groups... the tank rushed in grabbed all the agro and we DPS it down.  The strategy and planning were gone.  It became a button smashing affair.  Perhaps my disillusion with MMOs is bath game mechancis and the lack of open-endness and the lack of grouping with the same players night after night (way before we became a guild) to tackle hard stuff that required planning, talking and then executing. For WoW Raids, this did happen for me and I was in a great guild but that guild was my Everquest guild that moved to Wow.  What I am talking about is not grouping for dungeons or raids (of course you need that) but REGULAR QUEST stuff.  EQ quests were freaking hard and you needed groups so EVERYONE needed groups and everyone was looking for form them.  Because of this, if you were a jerk on the server word would get around and you would be hard-pressed to find a group. In others the social dynamics of having to be somewhat normal in order to fit a role in that community was very important. Player reputations meant a lot and were probably the most valuable in-game "currency" you had.  In otherwords, it was a REAL community, not like this crap that exists in current MMOs.

  • teakinatorteakinator Member Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Gishgeron

    I'm confused...everyone seems to say they WANT all the forced grouping of yesteryear.  Yet, when a game releases with such a design in mind, no one played it.  Vanguard was THAT game.  And it bombed.  The problem has less to do with what the genre provdes you guys, and more to do with you.  Do you know why we stopped enjoying forced grouping crap?  Because we got old.  We got responsibilities.  We got jobs, houses, kids, wives....and all of those things demanded our time in more important ways than gaming.

     

    Now we dont have time for a hour spent just LOOKING for a group.  Sorry, but the genre still provides those games.  We just hate them now.  And thats okay, because its part of growing up.

    I do play Vanguard and have since Beta.   Vanguard is the closest thing to EQ (that isn't EQ) but it has its problems. The world is huge but empty of mobs.  The grouping in Vanguard is great but it is a sub-fee (yes, I know it just went F2P but it is not realy playable as a F2P).  

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,375

    The MMORPG community has changed for the worse ever since WoW. Too many kiddies. Too many FPS "leets". Too much OMGWTFBBQLOLZ noob l2p, internet jerk spam in chat (yes, it was funny back in 2004).

    From SWG(pre-CU), I moved to EVE. This was also my first time using TS/Vent. As soon as I logged in, I get shouted at by some game general toughguy telling me what to do the second I logged in everyday.

    I hated TS/Vent even more later playing other games and the sounds of some people's voices made me question why I bother playing games at all. They don't sound like anyone I would ever talk to IRL. Definately nobody I would take orders from. So, I avoid TS/Vent and anything that requires me to use it.

    I miss the grouping in EQ, AO, and SWG. But, I can't do it again with this present community. I'd rather solo and do pugs. I see all of the same crap anyways. I still have fun. I still give a hand to someone near me (usually to help them kill quest mobs, so I can do mine without them KOSing). I collect the same amount of tokens (rolls eyes) to turn in for the same exact gear as the "leet plyrz".

    Nope, I'm done with the 14yr olds that have to go eat or to bed mid-raid, the whiney-voiced nerds, and the sausage-fingered toughguys screaming in my headset. I don't allow that IRL, not going to in games either. I'm also tired of being told where to stand, what attack to spam, and that I should change some piece of gear for 0.3% extra dmg.

    Yes, I know what tile on the floor to stand on and to keep pressing the "3" key over and over while I surf the web on my other monitor. Try not to have a stroke telling every single person in the raid where to stand and what button to spam for 15 minutes straight so you can get the epic loot because you're "the guild leader".

    Btw, ever been in a guild where you thought your only purpose was to gear up the "leader" and nobody else? Is this why they create them in the first place? I bet this is the reason why half these guilds exist, not "community".

    Sadly "MMORPGs" have become lobby-based (city hubs) co-Ops with a single-player option. There will never be a community again. Unless you enjoy filling raid spots so the leader and his friend or two can get epic loot. "What's that? You need to grind mobs to make some money, nah, come to the dungeon, I need gear."

    That is why solo-friendly is good these days. At least in my view. Time isn't the issue for me like others. I just hate the players that WoW brought to the genre that it gets praised for.

     

     

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • elm33elm33 Member Posts: 15
    OP, you speak the truth. I could not agree more. 

    image

  • ChromeBallzChromeBallz Member UncommonPosts: 341


    Originally posted by teakinator
    Original Post

    I would agree on the incessant persistence to focus on solo play. Rather than including a good amount of group-only content for all content types (not just dungeons), companies insist that you have to be able to do almost everything solo.

    While there is some merit to this kind of thinking, it has gone a bit too far.

    One does have to remember though that p&p rpgs can't be played 'on the fly'. there's a serious commitment to a session in time and date, whereas MMO's should have some solo content to keep you going when your friends aren't there.

    Playing: WF
    Played: WoW, GW2, L2, WAR, AoC, DnL (2005), GW, LotRO, EQ2, TOR, CoH (RIP), STO, TSW, TERA, EVE, ESO, BDO
    Tried: EQ, UO, AO, EnB, TCoS, Fury, Ryzom, EU, DDO, TR, RF, CO, Aion, VG, DN, Vindictus, AA

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