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Is the Trinity system really Gone?
stratasaurus
Member Posts: 220
I was commenting on a WvW and it got me thinking about did GW2 actually take out the Trinity system? Here is my logic. Sure you are not locked into a certain roll but when you look at it the rolls are still there in their tried and true forms. There is still a aggro system where someone is tanking, you still have hps that go down and you or your group use skills to heal you back up when you get low and you still do damage to monsters. So although you can choose if your char is in a current build for tank/healer/dps those are still your options and are used in almost every single fight.
This got me thinking what would it take for a MMO to truly break the mold of the Trinity? Well instead of giving people open options within the Trinity setup(which is what I feel GW2 has done) you would have to actually get rid of one of the 3 parts of it. Damage is pretty much impossible to get rid of so that leaves you with Tank/Healer. In theory you could get rid of the tanking system. You would have to have a combat system that had no aggro where the mobs either attacked at random or everything was AOE damage that affected the whole group. Although doable I doubt this would be very easy and I'm not sure it could be pulled off with success. The second way and the way I think it would have to be done if a MMO truly got rid of the Trinity system would be for healing to go away. You enter a fight with 1000 hp and you have to find a way to finish it before you get to 0. Instead the object would be to use maybe buff abilites that lessen damage at the right time like just before a big attack or use evades to evade the big attacks. This would also add the element of changing aggro if one member of the team gets low on hp instead of having a way to bring them back to full he would have to lose aggro and let a teammate take over and the goal would be to kill the mob before you run out of people and die.
Would a setup like this work? Maybe and Maybe not but I'm not willing to say there is no Trinity in GW2 it is just a altered Trinity setup. Until something comes out with a system that takes out one part of the trinity the Trinity is still running strong in my book. This is not to say GW2 is not a good or even great game just that in the terms of how combat works it did not revolutionize anything. Still tank/still heal/still do dps.
Comments
It is possible to do all dungeons without the trinity, but the trinity makes everything much easier.
Personally I run two Guardians, one Ele, one Warrior, one Engineer.
The world we know is going away http://www.graystatemovie.com/
Look up Agenda 21 as well.
~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~
Yes, the trinity is gone in GW2, whether people are willing to accept that fact or not. Players are no longer tied to roles. Your skills are where the damage, control and support aspects reside, and your weapons have a blend of all three. You need to instead focus on using the right skills at the right time for the effect you need at that time.
It's really that simple.
Oderint, dum metuant.
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Grats?
I run a mesmer. I can make you touch yourself.
Oderint, dum metuant.
To me IMO a trinity system is one that works all the time, everytime as they are dedicated roles. GW2 uses dps, healing and shielding in combat but not on a consistently useable basis. For example, you may be able to dps aggro on your guardian and use your shields and heals along with your group mates heal and shields but against a non trivial mob it won't last very long. Most mobs hit too hard and the abilities too long in CD. The system just isn't designed for it.
Being open minded I could see stacking certain professions in formed groups that "spammed" the healing abilities intended for short term use but they'd be focused on you as much as the mob do it would take a bit longer. You still wouldn't have an aggro ability though.
I doubt you could pull it off against a veteran mob or dungeon content though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Not really.
melee is the new tanks. Threat mechanics favor Melee and cc over ranged.
so easy to keep mobs away from ranged party members. Support need to provide constant buffs. Guardians are great here since they can keep the field stable,restro,protect, and also whole havning wards and shields. Very useful.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think rumors of the trinity's demise have been greatly exaggerated.
Don't listen to anyone saying a trinity exists. It doesn't. There are no threat mechanics for players to keep aggro, ergo No Tanking in the traditional sense. There are no targetted heals, and the ones that do exist heal for much less than each persons own heal skill, ergo there are no "Healers". Any heals thrown out cannot cope with the amount of incoming damage if anyone is foolish enough to try and "Tank".
The way the classes work you can't possibly adopt a role and stay in it. Nobody can stick to tanking and nobody can stick to just healing.
Most of the people saying a trinity exists have probably gone no further than mid level content. I've seen Warriors get killed in 2 hits. You do not tank damage, you avoid it. The abilities for healing, debuffing, buffing and CC are there but they're spread around the classes and every one of them will do more than one during a fight. There are absolutely NO aggro management abilities, no taunts.
People keep trying to force traditional roles into the game and they don't fit because it's not a traditional system. I play a condition dmg ranger but I can still drop an AOE heal if I think it might be needed, or give everyone a might/fury buff. I'm not limited to doing DPS, and if I played that way I'd be doing it wrong. Same thing applies to all the classes.
That's very true, of course, but you still "build" and "spec" with gear and traits. So you can drop an AOE heal, but it's going to be weaker than someone who has a good amount of +healing gear on (not that I would think very many people would have that while leveling at least, but still). That doesn't make it a trinity, of course, but it does mean that people have builds that are oriented towards a certain predominant playstyle.
of course the trinity still exists but it's not nearly as selected as it usually is.
as long as there is a healing mechaninc there will be those classes that can do it better, and even though every keeps screaming "but you can't just heal!" you are still mostly a healer that can quickly turn into a dpser.
same with tanking. sure there is no "tank" class but there are those classes that are better at it even if just slightly.
all in all it's interesting, it's something new to explore and experiment with. we are always bitching about stale and bored...well here is a chance to learn and discover something different.
To really break away from the trinity system, you'd have to design the basic gameplay for it, at least in two areas:
1. No dedicated healers, but every player has healing abilities, either passive or active. To balance it so that everyone feels like they need to use some heals, rather than just expect a couple to pick of the slack, you'd probably need to avoid making any single ability very healing-efficient, thus requiring multiple people to pitch in as needed. AoE healing would probably be the most natural type, so that players aren't having to focus too much on changing targets or whatever. They just keep DPSing, and throwing a heal out as needed.
2. Threat mechanics would have to be completely gutted, as they currently exist, otherwise, you'd still end up with certain classes being tanks. Probably the best way of handling it would be to simply base threat on damage dealt, so if you're taking too much of a beating, you might need to change up your skill usage from damage to, say, debuffs or extra healing, until someone else pisses the mob off more.
You make me like charity
That's the part people keep screwing up. You don't "turn into" one thing or another. Your different aspects are spread all through your skills. You may use a skill that damages the enemy while providing regen to allies in the area. Another, such as Chaos Storm, will damage enemies, damage and control enemies with assorted debuffs and support allies with various random boons. You don't switch from healer to tank to dps. You use the skills you need to at the right time.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Alright people, let's clarify what is meant by the Holy Trinity.
In terms of group dynamics and composition, the "Holy Trinity" has always referred to the allocation of dedicated roles to specific team members. That is to say, each member performs one role and one role exclusively.
So yes, GW2 does really do away with the holy trinity because no member of a party is able to perform one role and one role exclusively and be an effective combat participant (i.e. no single person is able to take all the damage, no single person can deal out all the healing and no single person can focus on damage exclusively).
No Trinity?!
Ep. 10 HD: Holy Trinity
View of the Holy Trinity
feel those explain it well.. holy trinity is gone but soft trinity is there.. you can bicker all day on semantics but at the end of the day it does not play out the same as holy trinity based games
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Professional healer here.
I favor getting rid of the trinity because I was tired of being the squishy priestess that couldn't solo . The problem I have with the trend to get rid of the pure healer build to switch to. I haven't played GW2 yet so maybe the Guardian or water Elementist is a pure heal build but in this day as we move to multi-tasking characters who heal themselves I hope we san save a build or 2 for the pure healer to handle the tough situations.
This is still a trinity.
The roles are still there. Faded, but still there. As someone else said earlier "any experienced MMO player couldve told you that"
Many have said it since BWE1, others continue to refute to no avail.
What I DID NOT like seeing today was blatant calls in general chat for a guardian to "run some dungeons" It grounded me REAL quick, and then I realized "Yup, it really is similar to every other mmo ever", and that's ok.
Even if the game were a skill based "everyone can be everything" game, you will still have people demand Spec X or Build X,Y and Z for DungeonX. It's most often the players, not the game, that find a way to pidgeonhole players/classes/sepcs/builds.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
No, you're wrong. The trinity is set player roles. These are simply attributes on your skills. Many skills have two or three of these attributes attached to them.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Your post makes no sense, bascially you are saying that even if your build is built around one thing as long as you have another skill, even if not very useful, you are not part of the trinity setup. For example if I am an ele in water I tend to have more healing support stuff but since I also have a damage ability I'm not "tied in" to the healer roll. Well if you are a protection paladin in Wow you have heals but that hardly means you are not a tank but instead a healer. All healers in wow have skills that cause damage that doesn't mean they are not healers.