Originally posted by Tibernicus That's because AAA MMOs these days are designed as solo games with linear instanced content... there's a reason people burn through them, its because there's nothing else to do in the game. So yes, AAA MMOs have failed by attracted that community, not the community itself.
I disagree - they aren't designed to be solo, that's just a side effect.
You're saying that games that are phased, instanced, have scripted cutscenes and voice acted dialogue, and provide you with NPC companions... aren't meant to be solod?
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
I personally think it's a horrible idea when it comes to MMOs. Those old MMOs had designs that most people don't want anymore. The genre is still young and evolbing.
I would love to see plenty of non MMOs remade with new graphics and engines though, such as D2, FF7 and HL.
According to sales, most people don't want the current design either. And no, the genre hasn't been evolving for about 8 years now.
You know when it was evolving? When those old MMOs reigned.
You're saying that games that are phased, instanced, have scripted cutscenes and voice acted dialogue, and provide you with NPC companions... aren't meant to be solod?
I'm saying that the motivation for all those things isn't directly to make a solo game, it's to control the environment in which the story takes place.
You're saying that games that are phased, instanced, have scripted cutscenes and voice acted dialogue, and provide you with NPC companions... aren't meant to be solod?
I'm saying that the motivation for all those things isn't directly to make a solo game, it's to control the environment in which the story takes place.
And I'd say its directly to make a solo oriented game, because the devs are trying to reach the casual market, and want to aim at people who only play a little bit solo and never group.
Yes this is all about marketing to casual gameplay not controlling the story. Some elements such as a cutscenes do allow you to tell a story in a way you could not without them. But the overall thrust in MMO direction for years has been to please solo game players and try to get them to play MMO’s.
Players seem to be quite aware of this agenda, after all it has been going on for years. I was looking at the Planetside 2 forums the other day, they were discussing the way you can now drive all vehicles with a single character. Apparently you need to spend points in a specific vehicle to use it well, but can drive anything. Posters were rightly pointing to MoH, CoD and so on which allow solo players to drive anything so they will expect to do that in PS2.
MMO’s have been driven (forgive the pun) by solo game design for years and increasingly now by the game design ethos you see in social network games.
Yes this is all about marketing to casual gameplay not controlling the story. Some elements such as a cutscenes do allow you to tell a story in a way you could not without them. But the overall thrust in MMO direction for years has been to please solo game players and try to get them to play MMO’s.
Players seem to be quite aware of this agenda, after all it has been going on for years. I was looking at the Planetside 2 forums the other day, they were discussing the way you can now drive all vehicles with a single character. Apparently you need to spend points in a specific vehicle to use it well, but can drive anything. Posters were rightly pointing to MoH, CoD and so on which allow solo players to drive anything so they will expect to do that in PS2.
MMO’s have been driven (forgive the pun) by solo game design for years and increasingly now by the game design ethos you see in social network games.
They want to control vehicles all by themselves because they don't want to rely on other players. 9 out of 10 players don't know what the fuck they are doing.
That is why the unskilled get so much flak in team-based matches as well. Incidentally, this is the basis for my theory that incompetent players tend to favor world PvP because there they can beat their enemies with numbers or level, or just hide in a masses of a zerg. No one will notice your lack of skill if player skill doesn't matter in the first place or if you're just "one gun" in huge army.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
"Yes, re-skinning the first-generation of hard-coded games would involve new engines and a lot of work, but I also remain convinced it can be done much quicker and cheaper than starting up a new MMO."
I think you're right. I don't think they'd neccessarily be massive successes but i think the ROI would probably be better than a lot of the games since WoW simply because the blueprint is already there and they'd be cheaper to make.
However i don't think it can be just graphics - or even mostly graphics. I think what they should do is pick a game like EQ or DaoC and get all the people who liked it to list what they most liked, boil it down and treat that as the master list *then* also get the people who hated it to list all the things they hated. Once they had the two lists they should look down the hate list to see if there's anything that could be changed which *wouldn't contradict the master list* which is the big mistake previous attempts have made imo.
Example: the camping mechanics of EQ are an integral part of it but there were a lot of flaws which could be fixed without changing the core idea e.g. if every member of a group gets a loot bag from killing a named mob that gets rid of ninja looting, if the named loot of a named mob only drops once per character then you limit farming, if zones near dungeons had some kind of bind-spot that melees could pay for they'd risk exploring remote dungeons more, if you had to pay the npc to bind you then caster players could still offer binding by undercutting the npc price (the same could apply to npc druids at druid rings) etc
"Yes, re-skinning the first-generation of hard-coded games would involve new engines and a lot of work, but I also remain convinced it can be done much quicker and cheaper than starting up a new MMO."
I think you're right. I don't think they'd neccessarily be massive successes but i think the ROI would probably be better than a lot of the games since WoW simply because the blueprint is already there and they'd be cheaper to make.
However i don't think it can be just graphics - or even mostly graphics. I think what they should do is pick a game like EQ or DaoC and get all the people who liked it to list what they most liked, boil it down and treat that as the master list *then* also get the people who hated it to list all the things they hated. Once they had the two lists they should look down the hate list to see if there's anything that could be changed which *wouldn't contradict the master list* which is the big mistake previous attempts have made imo.
Example: the camping mechanics of EQ are an integral part of it but there were a lot of flaws which could be fixed without changing the core idea e.g. if every member of a group gets a loot bag from killing a named mob that gets rid of ninja looting, if the named loot of a named mob only drops once per character then you limit farming, if zones near dungeons had some kind of bind-spot that melees could pay for they'd risk exploring remote dungeons more, if you had to pay the npc to bind you then caster players could still offer binding by undercutting the npc price (the same could apply to npc druids at druid rings) etc
I could have written this post myself.
My thinking exactly.
I do think that re-booting a classic MMO would entail making improvements and fixing what everything knows is broken.
Getting feedback from the Player's has to be an intregal, vital part of this.
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
WoW is already a classic and everyone keeps re-skinning it and failing to get the idea and learn the lesson.
Now, re-boot a classic can be a nice thing IF they are remaking the game with todays tech. Remake Ultima Online, AC, all these legendary old farts with at least GW2 artistic visuals or even TERA's and TSW's graphic visuals. I could buy that in an instant
Comments
You're saying that games that are phased, instanced, have scripted cutscenes and voice acted dialogue, and provide you with NPC companions... aren't meant to be solod?
According to sales, most people don't want the current design either. And no, the genre hasn't been evolving for about 8 years now.
You know when it was evolving? When those old MMOs reigned.
I'm saying that the motivation for all those things isn't directly to make a solo game, it's to control the environment in which the story takes place.
And I'd say its directly to make a solo oriented game, because the devs are trying to reach the casual market, and want to aim at people who only play a little bit solo and never group.
Yes this is all about marketing to casual gameplay not controlling the story. Some elements such as a cutscenes do allow you to tell a story in a way you could not without them. But the overall thrust in MMO direction for years has been to please solo game players and try to get them to play MMO’s.
Players seem to be quite aware of this agenda, after all it has been going on for years. I was looking at the Planetside 2 forums the other day, they were discussing the way you can now drive all vehicles with a single character. Apparently you need to spend points in a specific vehicle to use it well, but can drive anything. Posters were rightly pointing to MoH, CoD and so on which allow solo players to drive anything so they will expect to do that in PS2.
MMO’s have been driven (forgive the pun) by solo game design for years and increasingly now by the game design ethos you see in social network games.
They want to control vehicles all by themselves because they don't want to rely on other players. 9 out of 10 players don't know what the fuck they are doing.
That is why the unskilled get so much flak in team-based matches as well. Incidentally, this is the basis for my theory that incompetent players tend to favor world PvP because there they can beat their enemies with numbers or level, or just hide in a masses of a zerg. No one will notice your lack of skill if player skill doesn't matter in the first place or if you're just "one gun" in huge army.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"Yes, re-skinning the first-generation of hard-coded games would involve new engines and a lot of work, but I also remain convinced it can be done much quicker and cheaper than starting up a new MMO."
I think you're right. I don't think they'd neccessarily be massive successes but i think the ROI would probably be better than a lot of the games since WoW simply because the blueprint is already there and they'd be cheaper to make.
However i don't think it can be just graphics - or even mostly graphics. I think what they should do is pick a game like EQ or DaoC and get all the people who liked it to list what they most liked, boil it down and treat that as the master list *then* also get the people who hated it to list all the things they hated. Once they had the two lists they should look down the hate list to see if there's anything that could be changed which *wouldn't contradict the master list* which is the big mistake previous attempts have made imo.
Example: the camping mechanics of EQ are an integral part of it but there were a lot of flaws which could be fixed without changing the core idea e.g. if every member of a group gets a loot bag from killing a named mob that gets rid of ninja looting, if the named loot of a named mob only drops once per character then you limit farming, if zones near dungeons had some kind of bind-spot that melees could pay for they'd risk exploring remote dungeons more, if you had to pay the npc to bind you then caster players could still offer binding by undercutting the npc price (the same could apply to npc druids at druid rings) etc
I could have written this post myself.
My thinking exactly.
I do think that re-booting a classic MMO would entail making improvements and fixing what everything knows is broken.
Getting feedback from the Player's has to be an intregal, vital part of this.
@OP
WoW is already a classic and everyone keeps re-skinning it and failing to get the idea and learn the lesson.
Now, re-boot a classic can be a nice thing IF they are remaking the game with todays tech. Remake Ultima Online, AC, all these legendary old farts with at least GW2 artistic visuals or even TERA's and TSW's graphic visuals. I could buy that in an instant