talking about cash shop in p2p games, i play WoW and i never bought anything from the cash shop and still i am as good as those who bought the flashy 'heart of the aspect" mount from cash shop. cash shops in p2p games are there to earn some extra cash, they don't sell anything that is worth mentioning. i don't see anything wrong in the cash shop of WoW, it is not wrong for them to try and earn some extra cash from a totally unrealated cash shop, if any of you had a good p2p game in market; you would do the same. but what i have seen in gw2 and read in gw2 dev blog, gw2 cash shop will have lots of things in it that can and will imbalance the game between those who will use cash shop and won't use cash shop. those who are trying to compare gw2 and WoW cash shop, please take a look at both cash shop and decide what kind of impact CS have in these games.
People want the world and to have to pay nothing for it. Yeah sure the purchasing price is a tad hefty--but it's worth it because there is no sub. Devs have to take in money somehow though, and if limiting the amount of character slots I can have then I'm okay with that. I only ever play 2-3 characters anyways--who has time for every single one? The thing is--without a sub they aren't taking in enough money to produce content at a fast pace so they have to suppliment that with some other income; at least it's not a P2W cash shop.
I dont' think GW2 even cost much for development. First of all Anet though independent is still under NCSoft. NCsoft with it's resource and being a well managed company will keep the cost low. And if GW2 is even high budget it'll already release it's development cost.
Wow 50m, Tera 50m, Aion 25m, C9 18m, allods 12m. Maybe you think all comapnies are like APB or Bioware which stupidly toast hundred million around.
Some people on google even guess GW2 to cost 10m.
And my question to you is you think APB should cost 100m, or 150m for SWTOR?
And my question is why dont' GW2 publish it's development cost. Most games do. Maybe it dont' cost much, that's why it's a widely hide secret.
-------------------------------------
Nevermind, after reading the post below me, I finally understood and everything you say is right...
I think its time to get real ! 10 mill for developing GW2 ???? naive or ignorant?
This is what Jeff Strain says in 2007 about how to create a succesfull MMO.
"If you are starting today and don't have at least three years and $30 million dollars, consider developing in another genre".
Jeff Strain is one of the founders of ArenaNet. Basicly what he is implying is that GW2 is not using less.
The numbers he talks about is the minimum. GW2 took 5 years, not 3 and ended up having around twice the numbers of developers working on it that what he said they had in 2007, where it was 140.
So if 30 millions is his estimate for 3 years, 50 mill could be ours for 5 years, double the developers numbers working in the last years could account for at least another 20 mill. And 10 mill more could be what makes it 2012 numbers and not 2007 . We could discuss then how much more it cost to meet todays standards instead of what is required in 2007. But 10 mill is not high
I think this estimate of 80 mill is actual what his numbers points at they had used as a minimum.
I don't know how much wage you have to pay in the states, to a bunch of talented developers. But it looks like they have found at least 1000 man years of work. If they had to pay 35.000$ a year on avarage in wage that accounts for 35. mill, just in wage. The 35.000$ is the avarage payment for a worker with an associates degree. Again i have no clue if that works as a good estimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States . But It cost something to keep talent.
And then there is all the other cost, to run a compagny.
Are we done talking numbers under 50 mill, to develop GW2 ?
They do not have a sub so the purchase price of the box is slightly more then the normal sub game. To be honest Diablo 3 was very expensive considreing the real money auction house too.
Usually the business model of a MMO is either F2P with cash shop or subscription model with lower cost purchase. I haven't seen barely any mention on this on the forums, other than when the prices were first announced, so does that mean it is now acceptable to charge £50-120 for an MMO and then tap a cash shop on as well?
I could be more forgiving if the cash shop was just more bank slots like in GW1, but paying for character slots, when I have just purchased a £50 game is a bit greedy in my opinion. Add to that genuine advantages (regardless of how large or small and I know they can be very small advantages) people can get from purchasing consumable items, it seems ridiculous to me to even have these items, Arenanet already stand to make around £100million just for box sales alone (a conservative difference between the amount of prepurchases and beta accounts active)
In GW1 you can also buy extra character slots...
And you get the 4 character slots when you buy the game, that should take some time untill you level all the 4 characters (if you create all 4 characters).
Not to mention, subscription games started having cash shops this days, and sub games always had "microtransactions".
I don't get it why people are so complaining, the best thing would be to make this game free for all without any cash shop and box prices. That'd surely make the game last, eh? -.-'
It's just hilarious how much content we're getting for just the box price and the game has no sub! You should take that into an account when talking gw2 shop (even tho those things you're mentioning as an advantages, they're not really advantages... Because you won't have much use of lvling up faster or getting karma faster since karma can be obtained really easy and by the time you'll actually need it - you'll have more than enough without the boosters).
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
So GW1 had a cash shop, OK. That means it has been in play for years. has it got game altering items yet? If so, you know where the GW2 cash shop is heading. If not then players can rest assured.
Let me start by saying that I'm against cash shops in any game that you purchase outright to play, not just the GW2 shop, so please don't take the body of this post to mean that I'm attacking GW2.
I feel like many people only defend this particular cash shop because they love the game so much. To them, I say it's okay to love the game and dislike the idea of a cash shop. For those pro cash shop people, here are my responses to the major arguments for it:
You don't have to use it.
Yes, I know I don't have to use it. That doesn't make it's existence any less intrusive on my gameplay experience. I don't like having to pay convenience fees in any form, and that's exactly what they're doing with reduced bag/bank space and limiting character slots. They have designed the game from the ground up with a cash shop in mind, and the only way to have a successful cash shop without being pay to win is to make the game just inconvenient enough to keep people playing, but to strongly encourage small sales to decrease the inconvenience.
You don't seem to understand how F2P works. Only about 10% of your players pay money. The developer needs to have a game that's fun for the other 90% otherwise they leave, and when they leave the paying customers leave, too. Your argument isn't just based on misinformation, it's downright scary in its reasoning. Either you believe that your fellow MMO gamers are masochistic naive sheep (which would be a rather insulting and arrogant contention on your part, I might add) or you are transferring your own flaws onto others, unaware that we aren't all as weak as you are.
Other games are B2P with sub and cash shop.
So those other games are run more greedily, and that makes this particular cash shop somehow okay by comparison? Many of you HATE the Box Price/Sub/CS combo, and yet won't bat an eye to use it to defend the cash shop in this game. It's a bit hypocritical.
It's not hypocritical. Many feel the sub should cover all the ongoing extras. For many, CS is a substituate for the Sub in the sub's absence. I don't think you truly understand what people dislike about Sub vs CS, and the presence of the retail box (something most MMOs have anyway but you seem to focus on here) is throwing you off.
It's a business, they have to make money.
I agree with this argument actually, but there's a difference between trying to make an honest buck for your labors, and trying to turn your customers into a cash faucet, which is what many MMOs are trying to do nowadays, and the cash shop is definitely a tool that facilitates this.
So which is the 'honest buck' and which is the 'cash faucet'?
A) The company that collects revenue from you monthly whether you use the product or not
The company that receives only compensation for those features and items that you choose to use?
Be honest, now.
Many of us are under the mistaken assumption that if we contribute to the cash shop, then somehow that translates into more, better game content in the future. In truth, a large portion of those contributions are going to go toward more, better cash shop content.
It sounds like you are working under the mistaken assumption that since you want to believe something that automatically makes it the truth. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume you aren't just making things up to support your stance - Can you post links to the data that led you to this truth about how the revenue is allocated?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The ammount of misinformation about the GW2 cash shop is now bordering on the ridiculous, forum posters need to start taking some responsibility in getting their facts right before posting.
Based solely on the ridiculous pay to win argument, we realistically look solely at Mystic Keys.
The argument put forward is that mystic keys unlock mystic chest these chests have a chance of spawning boost pots (amongst other things) that can benefit the character in areas of the game classed as non competitive pvp environments. These buffs can be obtained through the purchase of mystic keys but chests must be found or purchased from the trading post using in game currency. Mystic keys are also available as in game quest rewards and drops. In my BWE experience I found 2 mystic chests and recieved 3 mystic keys 2 were from area completion rewards, 1 was a drop.
at present we believe this to mean that these buffs can be used in PVE.
these buffs can not be used in structured PVP
we are uncertain if they can be used in WvW - we have recieved screen shots showing the buff present in the mists but we have also had reports that the buff was shown but remained inactive (observing the speed boost buff) and only became active once more when the player exited WvW. We also know that in BWE1 the buffs worked in WvW, this was reported as a bug in the beta forums and was verified as not working as intended. In BWE 2 this was verified by players as fixed (see description above for method of verification).
No one has provided evidence of anyone benefitting from this Buff in WvW in BWE 3 only that the buff is displayed and the message tagged to the buff saying that it only works in non competitive pvp.
Some are taking this to mean WvW.
These are the facts and interpretations on the current situation.
My opinion is that competitive pvp is defined as WvW and SPvP. My reasoning is that the buffs were origionally never intended to work in WvW and this was confirmed by a dev. I also believe that Structured PVP is the term used by Arena Net to clarify that game mode and therefore cometitive pvp better clarifys aspects of both WvW and SPvP as a whole.
Let me start by saying that I'm against cash shops in any game that you purchase outright to play, not just the GW2 shop, so please don't take the body of this post to mean that I'm attacking GW2.
I feel like many people only defend this particular cash shop because they love the game so much. To them, I say it's okay to love the game and dislike the idea of a cash shop. For those pro cash shop people, here are my responses to the major arguments for it:
You don't have to use it.
Yes, I know I don't have to use it. That doesn't make it's existence any less intrusive on my gameplay experience. I don't like having to pay convenience fees in any form, and that's exactly what they're doing with reduced bag/bank space and limiting character slots. They have designed the game from the ground up with a cash shop in mind, and the only way to have a successful cash shop without being pay to win is to make the game just inconvenient enough to keep people playing, but to strongly encourage small sales to decrease the inconvenience.
You don't seem to understand how F2P works. Only about 10% of your players pay money. The developer needs to have a game that's fun for the other 90% otherwise they leave, and when they leave the paying customers leave, too. Your argument isn't just based on misinformation, it's downright scary in its reasoning. Either you believe that your fellow MMO gamers are masochistic naive sheep (which would be a rather insulting and arrogant contention on your part, I might add) or you are transferring your own flaws onto others, unaware that we aren't all as weak as you are.
First, this game is not F2P. You get that, right? You should know the difference between F2P, where a cash shop is literally the only way they make money, and a B2P game with a cash shop included to increase revenue... So trying to present a counter-argument from that premise was your first mistake.
Second, when you begin insulting your fellow gamer and making inferences into what he or she believes, you've lost the argument. You felt the only way you could win this point was to make it seem as if I have a complete disregard for our brothers here, or that I myself am 'weak'. Both are incorrect, ignorant assumptions.
With the fact that you never addressed the meat of the argument (How the certain aspects of the game were designed to be inconvenient in order to encourage use of the cash shop) I have to ask, was it only your intent to be insulting? If so... success.
Other games are B2P with sub and cash shop.
So those other games are run more greedily, and that makes this particular cash shop somehow okay by comparison? Many of you HATE the Box Price/Sub/CS combo, and yet won't bat an eye to use it to defend the cash shop in this game. It's a bit hypocritical.
It's not hypocritical. Many feel the sub should cover all the ongoing extras. For many, CS is a substituate for the Sub in the sub's absence. I don't think you truly understand what people dislike about Sub vs CS, and the presence of the retail box (something most MMOs have anyway but you seem to focus on here) is throwing you off.
Once again you're missing the argument and counter-argument. The majority of gamers on this website and in this community have been heatedly against the idea of a game charging a box price, then having a sub coupled with a cash shop. The argument I've read in this particular thread is that since games A,B, and C have the hated Box Price/Sub/CS all in one, that it's okay for GW2 to have just a Box Price and Cash Shop. That argument is inherently flawed, and doesn't work.
This isn't a sub vs CS thing.
It's a business, they have to make money.
I agree with this argument actually, but there's a difference between trying to make an honest buck for your labors, and trying to turn your customers into a cash faucet, which is what many MMOs are trying to do nowadays, and the cash shop is definitely a tool that facilitates this.
So which is the 'honest buck' and which is the 'cash faucet'?
A) The company that collects revenue from you monthly whether you use the product or not
The company that receives only compensation for those features and items that you choose to use?
Be honest, now.
Those are oversimplified options. There are so many variables in terms of sub price, limitations in game access, box price or not, etc. But I'll try to answer as best I can.
In A it's still your choice whether you pay or not. No one forces you to sub. And then guess what happens when you pay the sub fee? You get unlimited access to all the features of the game.
In B, it's somewhat the same concept as A, and it's your choice what you pay for or skip, but the goal of the cash shop is to get you to pay beyond what a normal sub fee would be, and that's accomplished by limiting the game in some fashion. So even if I spend over $20 in the shop in one purchase, there will still be aspects of the game that are limited to me unless I pay more. Games have historically made far more money with a cash shop model than with a sub model.
The real answer to your question, though, is that both are cash faucets after a box purchase for the game.
Many of us are under the mistaken assumption that if we contribute to the cash shop, then somehow that translates into more, better game content in the future. In truth, a large portion of those contributions are going to go toward more, better cash shop content.
It sounds like you are working under the mistaken assumption that since you want to believe something that automatically makes it the truth. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume you aren't just making things up to support your stance - Can you post links to the data that led you to this truth about how the revenue is allocated?
The evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists. Games like LoTRO, D&DO, The Station Store and even WoW. The more successful the online store becomes, the more they've expanded it.
I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point. I believed that 'a large portion' was vague enough to not require going into specifics.
I dont' think GW2 even cost much for development. First of all Anet though independent is still under NCSoft. NCsoft with it's resource and being a well managed company will keep the cost low. And if GW2 is even high budget it'll already release it's development cost.
Wow 50m, Tera 50m, Aion 25m, C9 18m, allods 12m. Maybe you think all comapnies are like APB or Bioware which stupidly toast hundred million around.
Some people on google even guess GW2 to cost 10m.
And my question to you is you think APB should cost 100m, or 150m for SWTOR?
And my question is why dont' GW2 publish it's development cost. Most games do. Maybe it dont' cost much, that's why it's a widely hide secret.
-------------------------------------
Nevermind, after reading the post below me, I finally understood and everything you say is right...
I think its time to get real ! 10 mill for developing GW2 ???? naive or ignorant?
This is what Jeff Strain says in 2007 about how to create a succesfull MMO.
"If you are starting today and don't have at least three years and $30 million dollars, consider developing in another genre".
Jeff Strain is one of the founders of ArenaNet. Basicly what he is implying is that GW2 is not using less.
The numbers he talks about is the minimum. GW2 took 5 years, not 3 and ended up having around twice the numbers of developers working on it that what he said they had in 2007, where it was 140.
So if 30 millions is his estimate for 3 years, 50 mill could be ours for 5 years, double the developers numbers working in the last years could account for at least another 20 mill. And 10 mill more could be what makes it 2012 numbers and not 2007 . We could discuss then how much more it cost to meet todays standards instead of what is required in 2007. But 10 mill is not high
I think this estimate of 80 mill is actual what his numbers points at they had used as a minimum.
I don't know how much wage you have to pay in the states, to a bunch of talented developers. But it looks like they have found at least 1000 man years of work. If they had to pay 35.000$ a year on avarage in wage that accounts for 35. mill, just in wage. The 35.000$ is the avarage payment for a worker with an associates degree. Again i have no clue if that works as a good estimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States . But It cost something to keep talent.
And then there is all the other cost, to run a compagny.
Are we done talking numbers under 50 mill, to develop GW2 ?
Actually, I would say a good number is probably between 60-100k, on average, including benefits. In fact it could very well be more than that. Employees aren't cheap, as you have to pay them their salary, then their benefits which include sick days, vacation (which is a loss to the company, as they are paying you not to work), insurance benefits, etc. Plus you have licensing agreements for any technology you use in your game. Now ArenaNet has some benefits where most of their tools are apparently developed in house, so they don't have to license programs from other companies.
Then you've got taxes, standard operating costs, server/bandwidth costs. That number can easily climb to more than 50mil.
I agree with this argument actually, but there's a difference between trying to make an honest buck for your labors, and trying to turn your customers into a cash faucet, which is what many MMOs are trying to do nowadays, and the cash shop is definitely a tool that facilitates this.
So which is the 'honest buck' and which is the 'cash faucet'?
A) The company that collects revenue from you monthly whether you use the product or not
The company that receives only compensation for those features and items that you choose to use?
Be honest, now.
Those are oversimplified options. There are so many variables in terms of sub price, limitations in game access, box price or not, etc. But I'll try to answer as best I can.
When you are against one particular system, it's binary but when put side by side and presented back to you, now there's way too many variables and it's being oversimplified. Seems a double-standard of sorts.
In A it's still your choice whether you pay or not. No one forces you to sub. And then guess what happens when you pay the sub fee? You get unlimited access to all the features of the game.
That simply isn't true for the majority of subscription MMOs out there.
I know... "but expansions are different because they are bigger."
In B, it's somewhat the same concept as A, and it's your choice what you pay for or skip, but the goal of the cash shop is to get you to pay beyond what a normal sub fee would be, and that's accomplished by limiting the game in some fashion. So even if I spend over $20 in the shop in one purchase, there will still be aspects of the game that are limited to me unless I pay more. Games have historically made far more money with a cash shop model than with a sub model.
It sounds like you are assuming that since F2P makes more money, the ARPU is higher or that a player has to pay more in a F2P than in a sub game. This is false. The money is made up in both volume of players and the tiny pool of big spenders.
Many of us are under the mistaken assumption that if we contribute to the cash shop, then somehow that translates into more, better game content in the future. In truth, a large portion of those contributions are going to go toward more, better cash shop content.
It sounds like you are working under the mistaken assumption that since you want to believe something that automatically makes it the truth. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume you aren't just making things up to support your stance - Can you post links to the data that led you to this truth about how the revenue is allocated?
The evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists. Games like LoTRO, D&DO, The Station Store and even WoW. The more successful the online store becomes, the more they've expanded it.
I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point. I believed that 'a large portion' was vague enough to not require going into specifics.
"the evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists"
I was expecting something a bit better than "just look around you!"
"I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point."
I guess we have different definitions of what "the truth" means.
In closing: "This isn't a sub vs CS thing."
Actually, it is. It's convenient for your argument (and for marketing) to call it B2P because the term sits nicely with people.
This is a cash shop with a retail box. They can pull off the retail box because they are a Triple A team with an established IP. They can bank sacks of cash off the box, so why not sell one?
If this game was made by an indie company without a major brand or IP attached to it, would you be upset about the cash shop or wondering why they're charging for a box for a F2P game?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Usually the business model of a MMO is either F2P with cash shop or subscription model with lower cost purchase. I haven't seen barely any mention on this on the forums, other than when the prices were first announced, so does that mean it is now acceptable to charge £50-120 for an MMO and then tap a cash shop on as well?
I could be more forgiving if the cash shop was just more bank slots like in GW1, but paying for character slots, when I have just purchased a £50 game is a bit greedy in my opinion. Add to that genuine advantages (regardless of how large or small and I know they can be very small advantages) people can get from purchasing consumable items, it seems ridiculous to me to even have these items, Arenanet already stand to make around £100million just for box sales alone (a conservative difference between the amount of prepurchases and beta accounts active)
I can already imagine people posting 'The cash shop is optional and the advantages aren't even that significant'. Regardless of how significant they are, people have the option to run 25% faster than me, even after me paying £50 for a game.
Its like paying £40 for FIFA and then they have a cash shop for all players in squad to run 25% faster, doesn't seem fair for me. I think the initial purchase should make it so everyone is on a level playing field. Don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to playing, but this is the only thing that disappoints me.
So what do people think, is it now acceptable to charge £50+ for a game and then adding a cash shop?
I think you should post this in The Pub as it seems more a genre issue.
I don't have issue with GW2 cashshop as it currently is.
WoW has a cash shop? huh, i played that for 2 1/2yrs and never saw one. unless youre talking the gold farmers, or their online store where you can buy toys, t shirts or game cards. never saw anything you could use in WoW in game other than companions or mounts.
Usually the business model of a MMO is either F2P with cash shop or subscription model with lower cost purchase. I haven't seen barely any mention on this on the forums, other than when the prices were first announced, so does that mean it is now acceptable to charge £50-120 for an MMO and then tap a cash shop on as well?
I could be more forgiving if the cash shop was just more bank slots like in GW1, but paying for character slots, when I have just purchased a £50 game is a bit greedy in my opinion. Add to that genuine advantages (regardless of how large or small and I know they can be very small advantages) people can get from purchasing consumable items, it seems ridiculous to me to even have these items, Arenanet already stand to make around £100million just for box sales alone (a conservative difference between the amount of prepurchases and beta accounts active)
I can already imagine people posting 'The cash shop is optional and the advantages aren't even that significant'. Regardless of how significant they are, people have the option to run 25% faster than me, even after me paying £50 for a game.
Its like paying £40 for FIFA and then they have a cash shop for all players in squad to run 25% faster, doesn't seem fair for me. I think the initial purchase should make it so everyone is on a level playing field. Don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to playing, but this is the only thing that disappoints me.
So what do people think, is it now acceptable to charge £50+ for a game and then adding a cash shop?
I think you should post this in The Pub as it seems more a genre issue.
I don't have issue with GW2 cashshop as it currently is.
WoW has a cash shop? huh, i played that for 2 1/2yrs and never saw one. unless youre talking the gold farmers, or their online store where you can buy toys, t shirts or game cards. never saw anything you could use in WoW in game other than companions or mounts.
Let me start by saying that I'm against cash shops in any game that you purchase outright to play, not just the GW2 shop, so please don't take the body of this post to mean that I'm attacking GW2.
I feel like many people only defend this particular cash shop because they love the game so much. To them, I say it's okay to love the game and dislike the idea of a cash shop. For those pro cash shop people, here are my responses to the major arguments for it:
You don't have to use it.
Yes, I know I don't have to use it. That doesn't make it's existence any less intrusive on my gameplay experience. I don't like having to pay convenience fees in any form, and that's exactly what they're doing with reduced bag/bank space and limiting character slots. They have designed the game from the ground up with a cash shop in mind, and the only way to have a successful cash shop without being pay to win is to make the game just inconvenient enough to keep people playing, but to strongly encourage small sales to decrease the inconvenience.
You don't seem to understand how F2P works. Only about 10% of your players pay money. The developer needs to have a game that's fun for the other 90% otherwise they leave, and when they leave the paying customers leave, too. Your argument isn't just based on misinformation, it's downright scary in its reasoning. Either you believe that your fellow MMO gamers are masochistic naive sheep (which would be a rather insulting and arrogant contention on your part, I might add) or you are transferring your own flaws onto others, unaware that we aren't all as weak as you are.
First, this game is not F2P. You get that, right? You should know the difference between F2P, where a cash shop is literally the only way they make money, and a B2P game with a cash shop included to increase revenue... So trying to present a counter-argument from that premise was your first mistake.
Second, when you begin insulting your fellow gamer and making inferences into what he or she believes, you've lost the argument. You felt the only way you could win this point was to make it seem as if I have a complete disregard for our brothers here, or that I myself am 'weak'. Both are incorrect, ignorant assumptions.
With the fact that you never addressed the meat of the argument (How the certain aspects of the game were designed to be inconvenient in order to encourage use of the cash shop) I have to ask, was it only your intent to be insulting? If so... success.
Other games are B2P with sub and cash shop.
So those other games are run more greedily, and that makes this particular cash shop somehow okay by comparison? Many of you HATE the Box Price/Sub/CS combo, and yet won't bat an eye to use it to defend the cash shop in this game. It's a bit hypocritical.
It's not hypocritical. Many feel the sub should cover all the ongoing extras. For many, CS is a substituate for the Sub in the sub's absence. I don't think you truly understand what people dislike about Sub vs CS, and the presence of the retail box (something most MMOs have anyway but you seem to focus on here) is throwing you off.
Once again you're missing the argument and counter-argument. The majority of gamers on this website and in this community have been heatedly against the idea of a game charging a box price, then having a sub coupled with a cash shop. The argument I've read in this particular thread is that since games A,B, and C have the hated Box Price/Sub/CS all in one, that it's okay for GW2 to have just a Box Price and Cash Shop. That argument is inherently flawed, and doesn't work.
This isn't a sub vs CS thing.
It's a business, they have to make money.
I agree with this argument actually, but there's a difference between trying to make an honest buck for your labors, and trying to turn your customers into a cash faucet, which is what many MMOs are trying to do nowadays, and the cash shop is definitely a tool that facilitates this.
So which is the 'honest buck' and which is the 'cash faucet'?
A) The company that collects revenue from you monthly whether you use the product or not
The company that receives only compensation for those features and items that you choose to use?
Be honest, now.
Those are oversimplified options. There are so many variables in terms of sub price, limitations in game access, box price or not, etc. But I'll try to answer as best I can.
In A it's still your choice whether you pay or not. No one forces you to sub. And then guess what happens when you pay the sub fee? You get unlimited access to all the features of the game.
In B, it's somewhat the same concept as A, and it's your choice what you pay for or skip, but the goal of the cash shop is to get you to pay beyond what a normal sub fee would be, and that's accomplished by limiting the game in some fashion. So even if I spend over $20 in the shop in one purchase, there will still be aspects of the game that are limited to me unless I pay more. Games have historically made far more money with a cash shop model than with a sub model.
The real answer to your question, though, is that both are cash faucets after a box purchase for the game.
Many of us are under the mistaken assumption that if we contribute to the cash shop, then somehow that translates into more, better game content in the future. In truth, a large portion of those contributions are going to go toward more, better cash shop content.
It sounds like you are working under the mistaken assumption that since you want to believe something that automatically makes it the truth. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume you aren't just making things up to support your stance - Can you post links to the data that led you to this truth about how the revenue is allocated?
The evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists. Games like LoTRO, D&DO, The Station Store and even WoW. The more successful the online store becomes, the more they've expanded it.
I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point. I believed that 'a large portion' was vague enough to not require going into specifics.
From what I can tell, your entire argument is based around the concept of a game hindering your ability to play the game so you will purchase something from the CS. Anyone here can tell you that it's not the case. We can try to argue about what it may be like a year from now, but that's useless. All we have to go on is the CS right now, and their past endeavors with GW1 cash shop. Guild Wars 2 does not hinder your ability to play the game in any way. In fact, while playing, I've never felt inconvenienced. I had plenty of storage. I felt I had a good number of character slots.
And of course a game is going to expand their cash shop if players buy from it. It's called business, give more of what the customer wants. They'll probably add more town clothes in the future, minipets, and other useless garbage. I can even see them adding costumes a la GW1. There's a difference between expanding it and providing items that you absolutely need in order to advance.
And Loktofeit is right, if you aren't able to resist the temptations of a cash shop, then it's not ArenaNet's fault. The choice ultimately falls on us as the players to use the CS or not. ArenaNet's not at fault for providing you with a cash shop and purchasing additional products from them. It's not ArenaNet's fault that someone can't control themselves when purchasing stuff from them.
I will state this again, and even put it in bold for you. You are not hindered in any way in GW2 for not purchasing an item from the cash shop. You aren't even inconvenienced in any way.
WoW has a cash shop? huh, i played that for 2 1/2yrs and never saw one. unless youre talking the gold farmers, or their online store where you can buy toys, t shirts or game cards. never saw anything you could use in WoW in game other than companions or mounts.
Can you buy in game items with real money? Yes.
Ergo, WoW has a cash shop. They've had one since they started allowing paid sserver transfers. Now we have
Paid transfers
Race changes
Faction changes
Gender changes
Skin color changes
Mounts
Pets
For that matter...from a certain way of thinking, anything you obtained via the card game is also a cash shop transaction.
Just because WoW doesn't go out of their way to call it a shop, or have some sort of proprietary "WoWbucks" currency you buy things with, don't think for a minute they don't have a shop.
WoW has a cash shop? huh, i played that for 2 1/2yrs and never saw one. unless youre talking the gold farmers, or their online store where you can buy toys, t shirts or game cards. never saw anything you could use in WoW in game other than companions or mounts.
Can you buy in game items with real money? Yes.
Ergo, WoW has a cash shop. They've had one since they started allowing paid sserver transfers. Now we have
Paid transfers
Race changes
Faction changes
Gender changes
Skin color changes
Mounts
Pets
For that matter...from a certain way of thinking, anything you obtained via the card game is also a cash shop transaction.
Just because WoW doesn't go out of their way to call it a shop, or have some sort of proprietary "WoWbucks" currency you buy things with, don't think for a minute they don't have a shop.
Also, last time I checked, certain WoW's cash shop pets can be sold on the AH for gold. In other words, WoW has RMT on top of a subscription and a box price.
Comments
25% run speed is still a huge difference when you're kiting a tough mob. Just saying.
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
See how your post makes no sense?
MMORPG genre is dead. Long live MMOCS (Massively Multiplayer Online Cash Shop).
I think its time to get real ! 10 mill for developing GW2 ???? naive or ignorant?
This is what Jeff Strain says in 2007 about how to create a succesfull MMO.
http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php
"If you are starting today and don't have at least three years and $30 million dollars, consider developing in another genre".
Jeff Strain is one of the founders of ArenaNet. Basicly what he is implying is that GW2 is not using less.
The numbers he talks about is the minimum. GW2 took 5 years, not 3 and ended up having around twice the numbers of developers working on it that what he said they had in 2007, where it was 140.
So if 30 millions is his estimate for 3 years, 50 mill could be ours for 5 years, double the developers numbers working in the last years could account for at least another 20 mill. And 10 mill more could be what makes it 2012 numbers and not 2007 . We could discuss then how much more it cost to meet todays standards instead of what is required in 2007. But 10 mill is not high
I think this estimate of 80 mill is actual what his numbers points at they had used as a minimum.
I don't know how much wage you have to pay in the states, to a bunch of talented developers. But it looks like they have found at least 1000 man years of work. If they had to pay 35.000$ a year on avarage in wage that accounts for 35. mill, just in wage. The 35.000$ is the avarage payment for a worker with an associates degree. Again i have no clue if that works as a good estimate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States . But It cost something to keep talent.
And then there is all the other cost, to run a compagny.
Are we done talking numbers under 50 mill, to develop GW2 ?
Unless the run speed buff only works out of combat...
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
In GW1 you can also buy extra character slots...
And you get the 4 character slots when you buy the game, that should take some time untill you level all the 4 characters (if you create all 4 characters).
Not to mention, subscription games started having cash shops this days, and sub games always had "microtransactions".
I don't get it why people are so complaining, the best thing would be to make this game free for all without any cash shop and box prices. That'd surely make the game last, eh? -.-'
It's just hilarious how much content we're getting for just the box price and the game has no sub! You should take that into an account when talking gw2 shop (even tho those things you're mentioning as an advantages, they're not really advantages... Because you won't have much use of lvling up faster or getting karma faster since karma can be obtained really easy and by the time you'll actually need it - you'll have more than enough without the boosters).
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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So GW1 had a cash shop, OK. That means it has been in play for years. has it got game altering items yet? If so, you know where the GW2 cash shop is heading. If not then players can rest assured.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i think people are forgetting something rather important about GW2 cash shop.
As many other said before me, its not a pay 2 win shop, there is nothing you can buy that will make you better.
Aaaand, you can exchange ingame gold for gems, which means you can have access to every item in the shop without paying 1 cent.
you pay if you want.
The ammount of misinformation about the GW2 cash shop is now bordering on the ridiculous, forum posters need to start taking some responsibility in getting their facts right before posting.
Based solely on the ridiculous pay to win argument, we realistically look solely at Mystic Keys.
The argument put forward is that mystic keys unlock mystic chest these chests have a chance of spawning boost pots (amongst other things) that can benefit the character in areas of the game classed as non competitive pvp environments. These buffs can be obtained through the purchase of mystic keys but chests must be found or purchased from the trading post using in game currency. Mystic keys are also available as in game quest rewards and drops. In my BWE experience I found 2 mystic chests and recieved 3 mystic keys 2 were from area completion rewards, 1 was a drop.
at present we believe this to mean that these buffs can be used in PVE.
these buffs can not be used in structured PVP
we are uncertain if they can be used in WvW - we have recieved screen shots showing the buff present in the mists but we have also had reports that the buff was shown but remained inactive (observing the speed boost buff) and only became active once more when the player exited WvW. We also know that in BWE1 the buffs worked in WvW, this was reported as a bug in the beta forums and was verified as not working as intended. In BWE 2 this was verified by players as fixed (see description above for method of verification).
No one has provided evidence of anyone benefitting from this Buff in WvW in BWE 3 only that the buff is displayed and the message tagged to the buff saying that it only works in non competitive pvp.
Some are taking this to mean WvW.
These are the facts and interpretations on the current situation.
My opinion is that competitive pvp is defined as WvW and SPvP. My reasoning is that the buffs were origionally never intended to work in WvW and this was confirmed by a dev. I also believe that Structured PVP is the term used by Arena Net to clarify that game mode and therefore cometitive pvp better clarifys aspects of both WvW and SPvP as a whole.
The evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists. Games like LoTRO, D&DO, The Station Store and even WoW. The more successful the online store becomes, the more they've expanded it.
I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point. I believed that 'a large portion' was vague enough to not require going into specifics.
Actually, I would say a good number is probably between 60-100k, on average, including benefits. In fact it could very well be more than that. Employees aren't cheap, as you have to pay them their salary, then their benefits which include sick days, vacation (which is a loss to the company, as they are paying you not to work), insurance benefits, etc. Plus you have licensing agreements for any technology you use in your game. Now ArenaNet has some benefits where most of their tools are apparently developed in house, so they don't have to license programs from other companies.
Then you've got taxes, standard operating costs, server/bandwidth costs. That number can easily climb to more than 50mil.
"the evidence is available to see in every successful cash shop that currently exists"
I was expecting something a bit better than "just look around you!"
"I'll admit that I don't know how the revenue will be portioned out in this title, and you'll note that I was never specific on that point."
I guess we have different definitions of what "the truth" means.
In closing: "This isn't a sub vs CS thing."
Actually, it is. It's convenient for your argument (and for marketing) to call it B2P because the term sits nicely with people.
This is a cash shop with a retail box. They can pull off the retail box because they are a Triple A team with an established IP. They can bank sacks of cash off the box, so why not sell one?
If this game was made by an indie company without a major brand or IP attached to it, would you be upset about the cash shop or wondering why they're charging for a box for a F2P game?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
WoW has a cash shop? huh, i played that for 2 1/2yrs and never saw one. unless youre talking the gold farmers, or their online store where you can buy toys, t shirts or game cards. never saw anything you could use in WoW in game other than companions or mounts.
The shop has companions and mounts.
From what I can tell, your entire argument is based around the concept of a game hindering your ability to play the game so you will purchase something from the CS. Anyone here can tell you that it's not the case. We can try to argue about what it may be like a year from now, but that's useless. All we have to go on is the CS right now, and their past endeavors with GW1 cash shop. Guild Wars 2 does not hinder your ability to play the game in any way. In fact, while playing, I've never felt inconvenienced. I had plenty of storage. I felt I had a good number of character slots.
And of course a game is going to expand their cash shop if players buy from it. It's called business, give more of what the customer wants. They'll probably add more town clothes in the future, minipets, and other useless garbage. I can even see them adding costumes a la GW1. There's a difference between expanding it and providing items that you absolutely need in order to advance.
And Loktofeit is right, if you aren't able to resist the temptations of a cash shop, then it's not ArenaNet's fault. The choice ultimately falls on us as the players to use the CS or not. ArenaNet's not at fault for providing you with a cash shop and purchasing additional products from them. It's not ArenaNet's fault that someone can't control themselves when purchasing stuff from them.
I will state this again, and even put it in bold for you. You are not hindered in any way in GW2 for not purchasing an item from the cash shop. You aren't even inconvenienced in any way.
Can you buy in game items with real money? Yes.
Ergo, WoW has a cash shop. They've had one since they started allowing paid sserver transfers. Now we have
Paid transfers
Race changes
Faction changes
Gender changes
Skin color changes
Mounts
Pets
For that matter...from a certain way of thinking, anything you obtained via the card game is also a cash shop transaction.
Just because WoW doesn't go out of their way to call it a shop, or have some sort of proprietary "WoWbucks" currency you buy things with, don't think for a minute they don't have a shop.
Better a B2P with cash shop, than a F2P with a cash shop.
No problems with a cash shop as long as it wont offer Pay to Win items.
Studio's need money to pay dev's so its ok as long as its cosmetic only.
Also, last time I checked, certain WoW's cash shop pets can be sold on the AH for gold. In other words, WoW has RMT on top of a subscription and a box price.