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GW2 Downed State Adds Strategy & Complexity

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Comments

  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    *snip*

    Why not let the actual PVP dictate strategic use of skill, instead of having to plan around the inevitable downed state of your foe?

    To the first argument presented: You could also say that PVP without the downed state is equally complex and/or stategic.

    To use your logic, for example: You fight, you have to determine whether or not to use that long-channeled spell against this type of foe, or perhaps try and cast on an unsuspecting opponent, or ignore them completely to complete the mission objective.

    See? Works both ways. The only thing different is one instance might be longer due to a forced mechanic in which the only added depth is how long it takes to literally kill someone.

    Its part of the "actual" PvP. And the reason that it is strategic is that killing is not the primary purpose of the fight. Controling territory is. Killing only furthers the primary purpose.

    You strike me as the type of player that defines his play by KDR (I could be dead wrong). This is not that type of game.

    I appreciate the fact that you responded to me like a person, not like most GW2 zealots who treat any disagreement like a witch hunt.

    Mentioning that it's part of the "actual PVP" is part of my disagreement with the game's take on player-versus-player, I suppose. To be completely fair, you can't say that any of the PVP would be fundamentally different if you DID'T have the downed state. You'd still be working for the same goals in the exact same manner, save the fact that reaching 0 HP would  then be something to generally avoid - not that you wouldn't in the first place, but there's much less motive when you can depend on a downed state and the possibility of being rezzed. To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

    To be honest, I still like the game and plan to play. I just dislike the downed state.

    P.S. I do care about KDR in games / game modes where that actually matters ( CoD DM / TDM; TF2 DM )

    image
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    I am really on the fence about the downed state. At times it seems great and adds a sense of urgency to try and fight for your right to live (so to speak) but at other times it's just tedious and frustrating.  I'm hoping that I learn to use it to a better extent and maybe I can find a greater value in it.

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  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    The whole downed state thing reminds me of Return to Castle Wolfenstein because that game was the first FPS I played with a system where one player could revive another after he had been "killed."  It actually changed the multiplayer in a way that made squads and teamwork much more important.  Because, prior to being able to revive your teammates, death happened so quickly in an FPS that made it fairly difficult to roll with a squad...your squad may win a fight, but be completely broken up from folks dying and respawning far away.

    MMORPGs never had this issue because of the power of targeted healing, and the relatively longer time it took to kill someone.  But think about this...healing does not have NEAR the amount of influence in GW2 than it did in other MMORPGs like Rift and WAR.  In those games, healers literally won scenarios because they could make it so you literally couldn't bring an enemy player down.

    But in GW2, you can't just sit back and heal to keep someone alive...and I think that the downed state is almost a replacement for the traditional healing dynamic.  It gives teammates a way to support each other, and keep each other alive without having targeted healing.

     

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619

    It works in small arenas because the downed player can act as a tether point. But in the larger WvW maps, downed state translates into a ridiculous snare mechanic.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    It works in small arenas because the downed player can act as a tether point. But in the larger WvW maps, downed state translates into a ridiculous snare mechanic.

    Not following...

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • OldManFunkOldManFunk Member Posts: 894
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    I am really on the fence about the downed state. At times it seems great and adds a sense of urgency to try and fight for your right to live (so to speak) but at other times it's just tedious and frustrating.  I'm hoping that I learn to use it to a better extent and maybe I can find a greater value in it.

    It's hard to understand it's purpose when doing PvE in the starter areas but wait until you start running hard mode dungeons or competitive PvP and you'll start to appreciate how much the downed state adds to the game.

     

    Some people who are looking for anything to hate on will act like having to decide between helping an ally, finishing an enemy or going for an objective isn't strategic in part because they haven't ever seen it used in a strategic way and can't even begin to  understand its purpose much less value. They will write it off as a gimick to extend combat because they can only think of it in terms of games like WoW where you have dedicated tanks and healers.

     

    The video linked in the OP does a good job of explaining how the down state adds a new dimension to PvP and demonstrates how the downed state makes people think about how and when to use their normal abilities. GW2 PvP is much more than simply blowing all your CDs to focus someone down, rinse and repeat.

     

    Focus firing the healer may have been a great strategy in WoW PvP but the entire GW2 combat system is designed to offer more situations and require more thought than this.

  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877

    I could do without it in spvp.

     

    I think it's really cool in PVE and WvWvW (Particularly WvWvW during big zerg vs zerg fights, diving in under heavy fire and trying to get that ress off, then you and your ally trying to run to safety is pretty awesome.

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    *snip*

    I appreciate the fact that you responded to me like a person, not like most GW2 zealots who treat any disagreement like a witch hunt.

    Mentioning that it's part of the "actual PVP" is part of my disagreement with the game's take on player-versus-player, I suppose. To be completely fair, you can't say that any of the PVP would be fundamentally different if you DID'T have the downed state. You'd still be working for the same goals in the exact same manner, save the fact that reaching 0 HP would  then be something to generally avoid - not that you wouldn't in the first place, but there's much less motive when you can depend on a downed state and the possibility of being rezzed. To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

    To be honest, I still like the game and plan to play. I just dislike the downed state.

    P.S. I do care about KDR in games / game modes where that actually matters ( CoD DM / TDM; TF2 DM )

    Likewise, I apreciate you are objective enough to answer my points honestly, without resorting to the vitriolic hatered I've come to expect from detractors.

    I really think the downed state lessens personal achevment in a match in favor of team goals. I like this as I like team oriented game over lone wolf games ah la CoD.

    If you are the type of player who revels in 1v1 abd 1v2ing enemies with your skill, you are not going to be as impressed with those kinds of changes. If you are the type of player that likes furthering team goals even at the expense of  your personal acheivments, then this will likely resonate with you.

    This is what I feel they are going for, and I think it works. It adds more meaningful choice to skill use and encourages team play.

  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238

    Focus firing the healer may have been a great strategy in WoW PvP but the entire GW2 combat system is designed to offer more situations and require more thought than this.

    To be fair, I noticed focus-firing almost exclusively in all team-based realms of GW2 PVP.

     

    You'll have players zerg one person, and five or more different people trying to execute the same person even as they're being bombarded by enemy attacks. It's MUCH worse in large-scale WvWvW battles. The only instance where any sort of strategy or thought was required seems to, from my experience, be found in those small solo battles during the WvW PVP.

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  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Member UncommonPosts: 679

    It did add some tense moments in Darkfall for me but there i would have been looted empty if a group member would not have saved my half dead ass in GW2 it feels (at least to me) differently.

    A lot of the GW2 followers claim that the game will need a lot of skill to be played.

     

    You need to evade! (as if 2 evade moves in like what 30 secs make a diff and we just ignore blocking completely why don't we...)  Than we have the downed state but what is that actually?

    Lets see you fight an opponent he is better you go down but its not over yet the better skill did not mean anything just yet now you are downed but still fighting and your inferior skill does not matter anymore its not much you can do  just lay still and hit a few buttons and try to kill the opponent.

    I don't see the Strategy or Complexity at all its more the other way around.

    In a big besiege you would loose some of the troops they would die respawn somewhat far away and try to rush back meanwhile the remaining troops have to react accordingly to the losses they would need to adjust the Strategy while waiting for reinforcements.

    As a team leader you have to take into account what you lost and adjust accordingly to that but the downed state takes that away. 

    So it would seem like a poor choice to put it in BUT it does encourage the players and they have more fun (most don't want to try hard to archive anything in games so lets make it easy for them/not saying its a bad thing to not want to try hard) and the main point in my opinion is that without the Trinity the game has no depths to begin with so there is not much strategy involved anymore so adding the downed state does add some illusion of strategy and depths and makes everyone happy.

    In the end its like playing Chess only with Pawns, the game would be very boring so we add a ability to the pawns to fight even if they were beaten already and other pawns can get them back on the board too, by doing that we get the illusion of a deep game of chess while in reality its nothing more than pawns beating each other.

    It may seem like i do not enjoy GW2 but thats not true the pvp is (at least the WvWvW) enjoyable and fun.

    I just really don't think that everything about this game deserves the high praise it gets from its followers 

  • KyelthisKyelthis Member UncommonPosts: 287

    The Foefire map footage shows my team getting pooped on. Was a 4v5 so we didn't stand much of a chance, still KINDA embarrassing.

    On topic though, I agree with Taugrim with how the downed state adds more "flavor" to combat, in both PvE and PvP. I really don't understand how anyone could argue otherwise, not with the way this game is built.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

     

    Did you, by any chance, actually watch the video about which that comment was made? And the context in which it was made had to do with sPvP, which again, you would know by watching the video in which it seemed, to me, to cleary add another layer of gameplay strategy. AND in my second paragraph I stated that this was referring to sPvP and not an "OMG everything in GW2 is awesome" kind of thing.

    I have no problem with people criticizing facets of GW2 or not agreeing with me, but it would be helpful, at least from my point of view, if you took 10 minutes of your life to see the gameplay to which I was referring.

    Or you could, you know, keep making assumptions.

    And if you DID watch the video, and still stand by your comments, then so be it, we disagree.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,619


    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Foomerang It works in small arenas because the downed player can act as a tether point. But in the larger WvW maps, downed state translates into a ridiculous snare mechanic.
    Not following...

    Its a 5 minute snare. Down someone at a road or unimportant part of the map and leave them there to rot.
  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

     

    Did you, by any chance, actually watch the video about which that comment was made? And the context in which it was made had to do with sPvP, which again, you would know by watching the video in which it seemed, to me, to cleary add another layer of gameplay strategy.

    I have no problem with people criticizing faces of GW2 or not agreeing with me, but it would be helpful, at least from my point of view, if you took 10 minutes of your life to see the gameplay to which I was referring.

    Or you could, you know, keep making assumptions.

    And if you DID watch the video, and still stand by your comments, then so be it, we disagree.

    I did, by chance, watch the video about which the comment was made. And the context in which is was made was entirely intentional. 

    The majority of the fighting in the video is dependant on what is done during the down state and not so much during combat prior to that point. To me, the heavy focus of downed state in the game's PVP is not appealing because I feel that CC, Cooldowns, and Channeled abilities make much more sense being used during the combat prior to the "last stand" than being reserved until then due to the fact you can't actually take a player out of the game without, in a sense, killing him twice.

    What you call an added layer of depth, I call entirely tedious and unecessary.

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  • JustsomenoobJustsomenoob Member UncommonPosts: 877

    I think this is one of those things where for a bit you're like "omg why do I have to kill everyone twice" etc and then it grows on you.   Then after a while it'll feel great and you'll really miss it if you try another game.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    Originally posted by Derpybird
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

     

    Did you, by any chance, actually watch the video about which that comment was made? And the context in which it was made had to do with sPvP, which again, you would know by watching the video in which it seemed, to me, to cleary add another layer of gameplay strategy.

    I have no problem with people criticizing faces of GW2 or not agreeing with me, but it would be helpful, at least from my point of view, if you took 10 minutes of your life to see the gameplay to which I was referring.

    Or you could, you know, keep making assumptions.

    And if you DID watch the video, and still stand by your comments, then so be it, we disagree.

    I did, by chance, watch the video about which the comment was made. And the context in which is was made was entirely intentional. 

    The majority of the fighting in the video is dependant on what is done during the down state and not so much during combat prior to that point. To me, the heavy focus of downed state in the game's PVP is not appealing because I feel that CC, Cooldowns, and Channeled abilities make much more sense being used during the combat prior to the "last stand" than being reserved until then due to the fact you can't actually take a player out of the game without, in a sense, killing him twice.

    What you call an added layer of depth, I call entirely tedious and unecessary.

    To be fair, the video was not of an entire sPvP match, but was edited to highlight the dynamics of the downed state. This is not in fact all that happens in a match, as I am sure you are aware.

    And again, whether or not you like this mechanic, would you at least agree that these seemed to be skilled players adjusting their tactics on the fly as circumstances changed, and not an example of "OMG downed state is for n00bs because the game is for carebears"?

    Having said that, if you neither like nor appreciate the mechanic, so be it. As I said, I have no interest in trying to convince anyone that my perspective is correct.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • DraemosDraemos Member UncommonPosts: 1,518
    Originally posted by Derpybird

    I realize that some people have strong opinions about the downed state, finishing moves and rallying mechanics in PvP, and videos such as this may not influence their beliefs.

    However, I found this video fascinating, showing how downed state can add a second level of strategy for sPvP, and create some rather dramatic fights.

    Enjoy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFAlN6OSVOo

     

    As an aside, I hope that they implement a spectator mode, because while I doublt that I will be good enough to compete at higher end PvP, I do enjoy watching these battles. Some of the video reviews of sPvP that I've seen have been very helpful as well in me figuring out traits and proper weapon choice and useage.

    Honestly it just looks really stupid to me, I don't like the revive/rally system at all.  The combat looks good though, so there is that.

  • Tawn47Tawn47 Member Posts: 512
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

    You should like this game then:

    :)

    Seriously though, that statement is just false.  The downed state gives more options and things to consider which allows for more strategy.  Personally I'd like to see the ability to rally from the downed state removed..  i.e. you have to be revived to get back into the fight.

     

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Nice video.

    It definitely does a pretty good job of explaining the strategies involved with the downed state, and how it adds another layer of complexity to the game.

    As with most aspects of the game, though, I doubt the video is going to do much to educate. It's a new feature, and many people are going to be opposed to it simply because they don't really 'get it', or aren't used to it yet.

    Most frequently I see the criticism that it slows down combat. However, that's just not true. Combat is just as fast paced with or without the downed state. What the downed mechanic does is make fire & forget PvP a lot less viable. However, a lot of people are used to fire & forget PvP, and many people equate this with skill, when really all it is is finding the most OP dps build you can find and trying to run around spiking people. That's not faster paced PvP. It's just less tactical.

    With the downed state you really have to pay more attention to your surroundings, and that's really all it is. If you do that, the downed state is usually only an extra couple seconds to kill someone. Not a huge deal. The fights with prolonged downed battles aren't the most common, and usually are found in places like the mid nodes with 2 full teams duking it out.

  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238

    And again, whether or not you like this mechanic, would you at least agree that these seemed to be skilled players adjusting their tactics on the fly as circumstances changed, and not an example of "OMG downed state is for n00bs because the game is for carebears"?

    I agree to only the highlighted section, but that really doesn't say much. Skilled PVPers are going to adapt whether or not there's a silly mechanic. For all hardcore PVPers care, you could die and every time a giant man-eating squid could pop out of your stomach and the next thing you know there'd be a thousand and one Youtube videos about how to best coordinate with your team to defeat the "downed state squid" .

    It doesn't make the mechanic any more tactical or necessary, nor does it mean that the aforementioned mechanic requires skill or extensive knowledge to work-around.

    I'm still under the impression the last stand is pointless.

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  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 Member Posts: 636

    I personally like the downed mechanic - nothing like sucking in 2-3 enemy 'healers' to within what just happens to be the perfect radius for every Mark my staff can lay down in the time it takes them to react to the fact they are getting ragged on.... or just as good - surrounding the downed player with Marks just prior to their arrival and watch them trying to calculate whether they can risk running in or not....

    Keep it in - it provides variety and I personally love the feeling of recovering or being rescued in close fights.

  • otinanai123otinanai123 Member Posts: 265
    Originally posted by Tawn47
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

    You should like this game then:

    :)

    Seriously though, that statement is just false.  The downed state gives more options and things to consider which allows for more strategy.  Personally I'd like to see the ability to rally from the downed state removed..  i.e. you have to be revived to get back into the fight.

     

    I loved pong back in 84-85. So much fun!

     

    It's questionable if it adds more options/strategy when you have 16-25 normal skills vs only 4 downed skills.

    Even if it is: more options / more strategy doesn't always equal more fun. The downed state just makes PvP frustrating. 

  • terrantterrant Member Posts: 1,683

    Some things that have been said here, I just don't understand. Would someone who feels this way mind providing a little insight as to why?

    1. How does the downed state make PvP slower? You get someone to 0 health, run over, tap F. Battle too hectic to risk running over? Drop an aoe on the guy and watch him try to heal in vain. in fact, a great tactic is to use a downed enemy as bait to sucker people who see the downed icon and imediately charge over to heal without looking. As the downed player, you're either rezzed or dead in a few seconds. Is that really slowing anyone?
    2. How does the downed state specifically force you to play defensively? 
    3. In tandem with 2, how does it punish aggressive play?
    4. Why do people think downed provides safety? Yes it gives you a small chance at getting back up; but in PvP, if people are getting rezzed a lot, then the attackers are doing it wrong.

     

     

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,065

    The downed mechanic creates a secondary objective for both teams.

    Since it is a team game, awareness of where your team mates are, ability to communicate and coordinate are rewarded by this mechanic.

    The downside is that builds focusing on deal as much damage as possible, get a kill and then flee, are weaker.

    This also prevents coordinated spikes and one shoting.

    The guy in the video complaining about the downed state argued that this make 1vs2 situations impossible, that it is impossible to win vs 2 competent players or 3 or 4.

    Is that really an argument?

    2 competent players will always beat 1 player in whatever game, unless the game is designed around killing in the blink of an eye out of nowhere.

    So this only makes it harder vs noobs, but since people are beating noobs 1vs2, 1vs3 and 1vs4, the point seems moot.

     

    Players that like snipe enemies in the blink of an eye, before the other guy has a chance to blink will dislike it. Players that care about teamwork and dislike builds/games that allow insta gibs, will like it.

     

    So, concluding, the down state mechanic rewards TEAM PLAYin a TEAM GAME and punishes SOLO PLAY in a TEAM GAME.

    Seems a good design decision.

    But I guess that are players that like to play public games in mobas for the killing count regardless of achieving the objective of the game.

     

     

    Currently playing: GW2
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