Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

GW2 Downed State Adds Strategy & Complexity

DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991

I realize that some people have strong opinions about the downed state, finishing moves and rallying mechanics in PvP, and videos such as this may not influence their beliefs.

However, I found this video fascinating, showing how downed state can add a second level of strategy for sPvP, and create some rather dramatic fights.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFAlN6OSVOo

 

As an aside, I hope that they implement a spectator mode, because while I doublt that I will be good enough to compete at higher end PvP, I do enjoy watching these battles. Some of the video reviews of sPvP that I've seen have been very helpful as well in me figuring out traits and proper weapon choice and useage.

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

«1345

Comments

  • MadKingMadKing Member UncommonPosts: 173

    I really hope they fixed that op thief down skill, the cooldown on that was ridiculous you can keep an entire group busy just trying to kill one.

  • tank017tank017 Member Posts: 2,192
    In a way I think it promotes easy mode.In my 6 hours of play,I didn't actually Die once.
  • otinanai123otinanai123 Member Posts: 265

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

  • RohnRohn Member UncommonPosts: 3,730
    Originally posted by tank017
    In a way I think it promotes easy mode.In my 6 hours of play,I didn't actually Die once.

     

    Agree completely.  It contributes to the ease of play ANET was shooting for, and certainly supports the zergy feel of the game.  To me, it's an annoying extra factor to contend with, meant to cater to the casual player.  Why not throw one's character into the meatgrinder, when death isn't even an inconvenience?

    The consequences for death in GW2 have been designed to be extremely light for a reason.  In older games, death was something to avoid.  With hit points, then the downed stated, then the "everybody can rez everybody" mechanic, death has been watered down to almost nothing in this game.

    Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  • GamerUntouchGamerUntouch Member Posts: 488

    I'd be fine if none of the downed skills worked at CC, or had the ability to teleport/move

  • ProPatriaProPatria Member Posts: 30
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

    ??  Gotta say this does not make much sense.  Gee...the concept that people should play in a style that might prevent their death!!!wouldn't want that would we?

    Wish more games 'punished' aggressive (read: unrealistic/careless/clueless) play and actually rewarded sound/survival-based gameplay.

  • Arachneus1Arachneus1 Member UncommonPosts: 248

    Everyone feels the need that they have to "Finish Them!" to get credit for the kill or something...no just long range shoot the guy that is downed at a safe distance if they are within the enemy group.  Punish them for trying to revive their comrad when they bunch up together and focus AoE that gathering.  There is still a lot of aggressive play that can be done, just need to wait as they huddle up to get the rez.  In fact it probably helps you more when you down an enemy.  If it wasn't for your own teammates that feel the need to run in there to get the finishing blow in melee style and they die in the process.

     

    I think people just need to adapt to the new strategies that play out here now.

  • SteeJanzSteeJanz Member UncommonPosts: 334

    I wonder if any of the above posters even watched the video? 

    You say easy, but I watched a 2 on 2 become a 2 on 1 and then the the 1 become 2 again and win the fight.

    Apparently using the right skill at the right time can turn a fight even when it seems lost. 

     

    Is it just me or is everyone in a forum some ultiamte bad boy PVP player.  image

     

     

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928

    another good video from Taugrim. I know some hate it but i enjoy how the revive and downed works into the game and feel it really adds a lot to the entire strategy of PVP as shown in this video.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • The_KorriganThe_Korrigan Member UncommonPosts: 2,630
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

    This is actually the epitome of contradiction... if anything, the downed state encourages people to take more risks and play more offensively since they still have the chance of being saved by their team mates. It actually rewards agressive play.

    Basic logic... really...

    If you wonder why I don't answer your posts, it's most likely because you are on my block list - so don't waste your time.

    image

  • OldManFunkOldManFunk Member Posts: 894
    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by tank017
    In a way I think it promotes easy mode.In my 6 hours of play,I didn't actually Die once.

     

    Agree completely.  It contributes to the ease of play ANET was shooting for, and certainly supports the zergy feel of the game.  To me, it's an annoying extra factor to contend with, meant to cater to the casual player.  Why not throw one's character into the meatgrinder, when death isn't even an inconvenience?

    The consequences for death in GW2 have been designed to be extremely light for a reason.  In older games, death was something to avoid.  With hit points, then the downed stated, then the "everybody can rez everybody" mechanic, death has been watered down to almost nothing in this game.

    You don't need a rez in single player games like TSW, but because GW2 is a cooperative game where players are encouraged to work together you do. Given the lack of a tank or healer class, ANet added this extra state as well as the ability to rez to give players a chance to recover from minor mistakes. You absolutely cannot chain rez people durring difficult encounters (which were few and far between during BWE3 but will return when the game goes live).

     

    Being downed isn't being killed. The downed state is what you enter before the defeated state when your character actually dies and incurs a death penalty. It's much easier to help a downed player recover than a defeated player, and much harder to recover each time you go down.

     

    Being defeated in GW2 costs you time and money just like in almost every other MMO.

     

     

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by The_Korrigan
    Originally posted by otinanai123

    More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

    This is actually the epitome of contradiction... if anything, the downed state encourages people to take more risks and play more offensively since they still have the chance of being saved by their team mates. It actually rewards agressive play.

    Basic logic... really...

    i agree the downed state actually encourages the exact opposite of what Otinanai said since you have that chance to get revived you CAN play more agressively It also greatly favors teamwork as shown in the video so obviously teams that coordinate will have a pretty big advantage overall but that's usually the case in most PVP.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AdiarisAdiaris Member CommonPosts: 381
    Originally posted by OldManFunk

    Originally posted by Rohn
    Originally posted by tank017
    In a way I think it promotes easy mode.In my 6 hours of play,I didn't actually Die once.

     

    Agree completely.  It contributes to the ease of play ANET was shooting for, and certainly supports the zergy feel of the game.  To me, it's an annoying extra factor to contend with, meant to cater to the casual player.  Why not throw one's character into the meatgrinder, when death isn't even an inconvenience?

    The consequences for death in GW2 have been designed to be extremely light for a reason.  In older games, death was something to avoid.  With hit points, then the downed stated, then the "everybody can rez everybody" mechanic, death has been watered down to almost nothing in this game.

    You don't need a rez in single player games like TSW, but because GW2 is a cooperative game where players are encouraged to work together you do. Given the lack of a tank or healer class, ANet added this extra state as well as the ability to rez to give players a chance to recover from minor mistakes. You absolutely cannot chain rez people durring difficult encounters (which were few and far between during BWE3 but will return when the game goes live).

     

    Being downed isn't being killed. The downed state is what you enter before the defeated state when your character actually dies and incurs a death penalty. It's much easier to help a downed player recover than a defeated player, and much harder to recover each time you go down.

     

    Being defeated in GW2 costs you time and money just like in almost every other MMO.

     

     

     

    I can live with the downed state, though I don't love it, but downstate skills need to be heavily balanced. Currently, they feel more imbalanced to me between the classes than the actual "live" skills.
  • DaezAsterDaezAster Member UncommonPosts: 788

    I think the downed state works well especially once you get used to it. It is very rewarding to fight back and hold off death long enough to be rezzed or get back to your feet for self. 

  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238

    You could argue that, if you were to give everyone an instant ressurection for themselves or their allies, that this would also add a new level of strategy and complexity.

    In actuality, it's just the players adapting to a questionable decision made by the developers. There's nothing complex or strategic about a predictable "last stand"  mechanic in which you are, in essence, granted a second health bar and have the capability to be rezzed in-combat. Most players will quickly pick up on the recurring situation and be able to comprehend the habits of players in response to such a state. The so-called layer of stategy and/or complexity is based solely on the fact that this particular type of perk is a relatively new addition to MMO's - that and fanboy craze, but I'm posting here to bash.

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    image
  • OldManFunkOldManFunk Member Posts: 894
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    You could argue that, if you were to give everyone an instant ressurection for themselves or their allies, that this would also add a new level of strategy and complexity.

    In actuality, it's just the players adapting to a questionable decision made by the developers. There's nothing complex or strategic about a predictable "last stand"  mechanic in which you are, in essence, granted a second health bar and have the capability to be rezzed in-combat. Most players will quickly pick up on the recurring situation and be able to comprehend the habits of players in response to such a state. The so-called layer of stategy and/or complexity is based solely on the fact that this particular type of perk is a relatively new addition to MMO's - that and fanboy craze, but I'm posting here to bash.

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    Take PvP as an example of why this adds strategy and complexity.

     

    No downed state: You fight, you kill an enemy, you pick another target or complete an objective.

     

    With downed state: You fight, you down an enemy, you have to decide between finishing with a channeled finish, depleting his downed health, ignoring him to take on another target or ignore him to complete an objective.

     

    Does the downed state add complexity or strategy?

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    It encourages thoughtful and strategic use of skills. Calling is shallow, defines shallow nicely.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991
    Originally posted by SteeJanz

    I wonder if any of the above posters even watched the video? 

    You say easy, but I watched a 2 on 2 become a 2 on 1 and then the the 1 become 2 again and win the fight.

    Apparently using the right skill at the right time can turn a fight even when it seems lost. 

     

    Is it just me or is everyone in a forum some ultiamte bad boy PVP player.  image

     

    Hmm...

    I was hoping that people might actually watch the video of gameplay and see this mechanic in action before commenting, though based on some of what I've read, this does not appear to be the case.

    I knew about the downed mechanic and experienced it, but never really saw how it could be of such strategic importance in a fight for resource control.

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Derpybird
     

    Hmm...

    I was hoping that people might actually watch the video of gameplay and see this mechanic in action before commenting, though based on some of what I've read, this does not appear to be the case.

    I knew about the downed mechanic and experienced it, but never really saw how it could be of such strategic importance in a fight for resource control.

    you can throw all the video evidence at people you want but many will still stick their fingers in their ears and scream nuh-huh

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • C1d0sC1d0s Member UncommonPosts: 238
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    It encourages thoughtful and strategic use of skills. Calling is shallow, defines shallow nicely.

    Why not let the actual PVP dictate strategic use of skill, instead of having to plan around the inevitable downed state of your foe?

    To the first argument presented: You could also say that PVP without the downed state is equally complex and/or stategic.

    To use your logic, for example: You fight, you have to determine whether or not to use that long-channeled spell against this type of foe, or perhaps try and cast on an unsuspecting opponent, or ignore them completely to complete the mission objective.

    See? Works both ways. The only thing different is one instance might be longer due to a forced mechanic in which the only added depth is how long it takes to literally kill someone.

    image
  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    *snip*

    Why not let the actual PVP dictate strategic use of skill, instead of having to plan around the inevitable downed state of your foe?

    To the first argument presented: You could also say that PVP without the downed state is equally complex and/or stategic.

    To use your logic, for example: You fight, you have to determine whether or not to use that long-channeled spell against this type of foe, or perhaps try and cast on an unsuspecting opponent, or ignore them completely to complete the mission objective.

    See? Works both ways. The only thing different is one instance might be longer due to a forced mechanic in which the only added depth is how long it takes to literally kill someone.

    Its part of the "actual" PvP. And the reason that it is strategic is that killing is not the primary purpose of the fight. Controling territory is. Killing only furthers the primary purpose.

    You strike me as the type of player that defines his play by KDR (I could be dead wrong). This is not that type of game.

  • jaycejayce Member Posts: 133

    too many people just confuse downed with death. there's nothing wrong with the mechanic in general, but tweaking of some of the skills in that state is perhaps needed. i am, however, still on the fence about the rally from downed state.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Member UncommonPosts: 1,131
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    It encourages thoughtful and strategic use of skills. Calling is shallow, defines shallow nicely.

    Why not let the actual PVP dictate strategic use of skill, instead of having to plan around the inevitable downed state of your foe?

    To the first argument presented: You could also say that PVP without the downed state is equally complex and/or stategic.

    To use your logic, for example: You fight, you have to determine whether or not to use that long-channeled spell against this type of foe, or perhaps try and cast on an unsuspecting opponent, or ignore them completely to complete the mission objective.

    See? Works both ways. The only thing different is one instance might be longer due to a forced mechanic in which the only added depth is how long it takes to literally kill someone.

    I really don't know about the downed state mechanic , I've only played about 70-75 hrs so I'm not sold 100% one way  or another .I do know it's something new and I'm all for a change that adds something different to  the same old pvp I've rehashed over the last 12 years or so  .
     
    But I do know you can't have your cake and eat it too ...if you post one way saying GW2 is the same old thing and then turn around and complain about everything that ArenaNet does different you sort of defeat the purpose of playing a new game. I’m happier trying a new game like GW2 and trying new things then the recycled crap we’ve been given for the last few years

     

  • otinanai123otinanai123 Member Posts: 265
    Originally posted by Baddogbill
    Originally posted by C1d0s
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by C1d0s

    All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

    It encourages thoughtful and strategic use of skills. Calling is shallow, defines shallow nicely.

    Why not let the actual PVP dictate strategic use of skill, instead of having to plan around the inevitable downed state of your foe?

    To the first argument presented: You could also say that PVP without the downed state is equally complex and/or stategic.

    To use your logic, for example: You fight, you have to determine whether or not to use that long-channeled spell against this type of foe, or perhaps try and cast on an unsuspecting opponent, or ignore them completely to complete the mission objective.

    See? Works both ways. The only thing different is one instance might be longer due to a forced mechanic in which the only added depth is how long it takes to literally kill someone.

    I really don't know about the downed state mechanic , I've only played about 70-75 hrs so I'm not sold 100% one way  or another .I do know it's something new and I'm all for a change that adds something different to  the same old pvp I've rehashed over the last 12 years or so  .
     
    But I do know you can't have your cake and eat it too ...if you post one way saying GW2 is the same old thing and then turn around and complain about everything that ArenaNet does different you sort of defeat the purpose of playing a new game. I’m happier trying a new game like GW2 and trying new things then the recycled crap we’ve been given for the last few years

     

    The downed mechanic seems out of place in GW2. Did that part (killing/dying) of PvP really need changing? I've never heard anyone complain about how it worked in any oher MMO.

    I mean if people think it's "fun" why not request they add it to every mob in PvE as well? Oh you wouldn't like stomping every mob after killing it? Thought so.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Member UncommonPosts: 3,645

    I also didn't like the downed mechanic, I feel it makes number imbalances even greater... if you get an ambush on a larger number of people they can all quickly help their friends up, and the more people helping you get up the faster you get up, meaning that the side with the most people will have a stronger advantage than normal.

    Dislike :-(

Sign In or Register to comment.