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SWTOR over 500K subs as for July 31, 2012.

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  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by gervaise1
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by Ringbus
     

    This is a boatload of money.( 2.38 million x 50 = 119 million.)+ (7 months x 0.5 million x 15 = 52.5 million) =171.5 million dollars. Which means SWTOR quite possibly could have already turned a profit.

     

    No we have been told. In May JR said that they needed 1M recurring subscribers to "make a profit but nothng to write home about". And in Feb EA said that they had about 850k subs (50% of 1.7M). At no time have they announced 1M subs - subs as in paying over and above the 30-days included. And in the discussions they were talking about long term subs - put at 1 to 2 years by the analysts depending on free months, marketing, actual sales etc.

    So by inference based on what EA have said they have not made a profit.

    And whoever posted in green about EA getting 2.38M x $50 please will they sell some goods for me. They get to pay all the cost of manufacture and distribution, and all taxes and then give me all the money they get from the sale - none for seller (Amazon, Wal-mart etc.).  Pweeeze. 

    A few of the game devs/publishers on different sites have discussed the "split" on retail sales a few times.

    In general, the RETAILER gets 65%-75% of the box price for physical copies, depending on the retailer. So for physical copies, the publisher is getting the small slice.

    For digitial distribution, the retailer gets in the 25%-30% range, for a major release large title.

    And even on the Origin sales (EA's distributor) I guarantee that they split out a similar amount even though it was an EA product being sold, because any such "sales commission" would be outside any revenue sharing deal with the IP holder, i.e. EA gets to keep that 25% off the top before paying anyone else, same as if another site sold the copies. So it would be profit for Origin. A technicality, but still money not going back into the TOR pot.

     

     

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

  • mikahrmikahr Member Posts: 1,066
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    So they have resorted to using a range of numbers now..? Hey guess what, my personal wealth is between 500 bucks and 10 billion, so chances are I'm really rich!!!

    Yah, they are probably sitting at around 550k subs, with going down to 200-250k in september, so even reducing costs considerably (layoffs and other stuff) aint makin it.

    Originally posted by Burntvet

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    Mah, dont sweat, they are just kids that havent faced the real life yet. if you started to write how proper financial plan is made, and how all that is needed is tracked they would probably wet their pants :)

  • CyclopsSlayerCyclopsSlayer Member UncommonPosts: 532
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    So they have resorted to using a range of numbers now..? Hey guess what, my personal wealth is between 500 bucks and 10 billion, so chances are I'm really rich!!!

    Yah, they are probably sitting at around 550k subs, with going down to 200-250k in september, so even reducing costs considerably (layoffs and other stuff) aint makin it.

    Originally posted by Burntvet

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    Mah, dont sweat, they are just kids that havent faced the real life yet. if you started to write how proper financial plan is made, and how all that is needed is tracked they would probably wet their pants :)

    What is the current major retailer markup like these days for game software, 20%? 30%? 

    While the direct digital sale went directly into EA's pocket, sure. The Amazon, Gamestop, whatever stores all took their slice. Market price on books and videos was typically about 70% of expected retail the last time I was involved, and about 50% on Music CD's.

  • strangelvbmstrangelvbm Member Posts: 4

    I forsee one major issue with this FTP plan . They are basically giving away the best parts of the game (leveling/story 1-50) and charging for end game stuff (which most people will, including Bioware themselves, admit wasn't ready for prime time). Why do you think they hyped the Legacy system which was basically all about rolling alts. They KNEW the end game wasn't up to par.

    I unsubbed three months ago (didn't even log in for that free month they threw me), but it had nothing to do with the money. I will gladly pay 15 bucks a month for a game that I feel deserves it. SWTOR didn't.  The game is completely static. Nothing you do matters one iota. The choices you make IN YOUR OWN STORY don't even make a difference. And this coming from Bioware!? 

    Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see them turn this thing around, because a failure of this game will pretty much be a death sentence for future Star Wars MMOs. But from what I've seen by the direction they appear to be heading..........I just don't see it happening. 

    They are trying to fix a sinking ship by bailing out the water instead of patching the holes. Both methods are important, but one without the other and you are still sinking.

  • tixylixtixylix Member UncommonPosts: 1,288

    All my predictions came true but the mmorpg community insult everyone who says the game isn't good before launch... I don't think GW2 is any good but that will probably be a hit because it doesn't require a subscription.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061
    Originally posted by strangelvbm

    I forsee one major issue with this FTP plan . They are basically giving away the best parts of the game (leveling/story 1-50) and charging for end game stuff (which most people will, including Bioware themselves, admit wasn't ready for prime time). Why do you think they hyped the Legacy system which was basically all about rolling alts. They KNEW the end game wasn't up to par.

    I unsubbed three months ago (didn't even log in for that free month they threw me), but it had nothing to do with the money. I will gladly pay 15 bucks a month for a game that I feel deserves it. SWTOR didn't.  The game is completely static. Nothing you do matters one iota. The choices you make IN YOUR OWN STORY don't even make a difference. And this coming from Bioware!? 

    Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see them turn this thing around, because a failure of this game will pretty much be a death sentence for future Star Wars MMOs. But from what I've seen by the direction they appear to be heading..........I just don't see it happening. 

    They are trying to fix a sinking ship by bailing out the water instead of patching the holes. Both methods are important, but one without the other and you are still sinking.

    I don't understand this move either. Unless they plan to charge for alt rolling I don't see this being successful. Or unless they REALLY do plan on adding more stuff for end game because that is the game's biggest weakness. 

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Member Posts: 1,857
    Originally posted by ktanner3

    Originally posted by strangelvbm
    I forsee one major issue with this FTP plan . They are basically giving away the best parts of the game (leveling/story 1-50) and charging for end game stuff (which most people will, including Bioware themselves, admit wasn't ready for prime time). Why do you think they hyped the Legacy system which was basically all about rolling alts. They KNEW the end game wasn't up to par. I unsubbed three months ago (didn't even log in for that free month they threw me), but it had nothing to do with the money. I will gladly pay 15 bucks a month for a game that I feel deserves it. SWTOR didn't.  The game is completely static. Nothing you do matters one iota. The choices you make IN YOUR OWN STORY don't even make a difference. And this coming from Bioware!?  Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see them turn this thing around, because a failure of this game will pretty much be a death sentence for future Star Wars MMOs. But from what I've seen by the direction they appear to be heading..........I just don't see it happening.  They are trying to fix a sinking ship by bailing out the water instead of patching the holes. Both methods are important, but one without the other and you are still sinking.

    I don't understand this move either. Unless they plan to charge for alt rolling I don't see this being successful. Or unless they REALLY do plan on adding more stuff for end game because that is the game's biggest weakness. 

     

    They are already displaying some vanity items. Vanity items are a proven seller in many games. In fact, Path of Exile plans to make 100% of its money from vanity items.

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  • RingbusRingbus Member Posts: 36
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    A few of the game devs/publishers on different sites have discussed the "split" on retail sales a few times.

    In general, the RETAILER gets 65%-75% of the box price for physical copies, depending on the retailer. So for physical copies, the publisher is getting the small slice.

    For digitial distribution, the retailer gets in the 25%-30% range, for a major release large title.

    And even on the Origin sales (EA's distributor) I guarantee that they split out a similar amount even though it was an EA product being sold, because any such "sales commission" would be outside any revenue sharing deal with the IP holder, i.e. EA gets to keep that 25% off the top before paying anyone else, same as if another site sold the copies. So it would be profit for Origin. A technicality, but still money not going back into the TOR pot.

     

     

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    The percentages are roughly correct but there really isn't a split between the publisher and retail.

    Once the game has passed QA and has gone Gold:

    * The Gold Master disc is either mailed of uploaded to a duplicator who creates the physical game discs

    * Then the box components are assembled with duplicated discs

    * Storage is needed for the game boxes while they await shipment to retail stores

    * Either a distributor or sometimes like with EA in house people have been in the process of talking to retail chains to buy the game, give it good shelf space, set up endcaps for the game in stores

    * X number of units are sold to the retailer usually in the 20 something dollar range that the retailer then marks up to the normal 60 dollar retail price.

    * Then the boxes are shipped from the publisher or distributor to each retail customer

    Each of those steps in the publisher to retail shelf takes its chunk out of the 20 something dollars in revenue the pubisher's revenue. Each game has a different in the amounts each stage takes or the details of the steps - in house distribution vs third party for example.

    So the 20 something dollars in revenue have the duplication costs, box materials and assembly, storage and shipping, distribution costs either internal or third party all subtracted from the revenue.

    Once all that is subracted from the publisher's revenue from game sales then you start subtracting off the costs to develop the game and the ongoing costs to keep the gaming running, updated, and supported for customers.

     

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332
    Originally posted by Burntvet
     

    A few of the game devs/publishers on different sites have discussed the "split" on retail sales a few times.

    In general, the RETAILER gets 65%-75% of the box price for physical copies, depending on the retailer. So for physical copies, the publisher is getting the small slice.

    For digitial distribution, the retailer gets in the 25%-30% range, for a major release large title.

    And even on the Origin sales (EA's distributor) I guarantee that they split out a similar amount even though it was an EA product being sold, because any such "sales commission" would be outside any revenue sharing deal with the IP holder, i.e. EA gets to keep that 25% off the top before paying anyone else, same as if another site sold the copies. So it would be profit for Origin. A technicality, but still money not going back into the TOR pot.

     

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    Your logic is so flawed I don't know what to say. When EA makes, publishes and distributes a game it makes all of that money. 

    100%

    When they make a digital sale through origin they make 100% of the money. 

  • erictlewiserictlewis Member UncommonPosts: 3,021
    Originally posted by CyclopsSlay
    Originally posted by mikahr
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    So they have resorted to using a range of numbers now..? Hey guess what, my personal wealth is between 500 bucks and 10 billion, so chances are I'm really rich!!!

    Yah, they are probably sitting at around 550k subs, with going down to 200-250k in september, so even reducing costs considerably (layoffs and other stuff) aint makin it.

    Originally posted by Burntvet

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    Mah, dont sweat, they are just kids that havent faced the real life yet. if you started to write how proper financial plan is made, and how all that is needed is tracked they would probably wet their pants :)

    What is the current major retailer markup like these days for game software, 20%? 30%? 

    While the direct digital sale went directly into EA's pocket, sure. The Amazon, Gamestop, whatever stores all took their slice. Market price on books and videos was typically about 70% of expected retail the last time I was involved, and about 50% on Music CD's.

    When I worked for a local retail drug chain, we did not sale anything that we could not make a 60% markup on.  We ran weekly reports and anything that was underperformed we quit ordering at the distribution center.  Typically they wanted a 70% markup. Anything below 50% would find it's way to the local sales paper and we would do a lost lead situation to get it out of stock asap.

    So Yes most places are going to make at least 50-60% or better.  So if you got your copy at anybody other than origin they got 50% minimum,  the only folks who truly made 100% was origin,  so the question is how much was sold via origin, vs brick and mortar stores and drop shipping like amazon.  So if they sold 2.4 million * 59 / 2 = 70 million on box sales if all of them were the regular one.  Based on 300 million cost that's only 1/3 of the cost covered and we already know from the investors call that EA said that is not good enough.

    "First, the game many of you have been tracking closely, Star Wars: The Old Republic. 
    Although it launched well, subscriptions have been on a declining trajectory and have now
    slipped below one million.  Last year we announced that the breakeven point was roughly
    500,000 subscribers.  And while we are well above that today, that’s not good enough.'

    found on page 7 on the presentation draft http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ERTS/2000518349x0x587474/a3017ec2-7f9e-4200-af7f-246d99244d23/Q1_FY13_Earnings_Script_FINAL.pdf

     

    Not good enough yea i bet.

     

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Member UncommonPosts: 823

    Chalk it up to "  not being good enough " as a translation for our dividend isn't nearly what we hoped for . So it's underperforming and they want that fixed.

    image
  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Member Posts: 1,857
    Was the cost to retailers calculated in the overall overhead of the game? Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, there are still several factors which will make it hard to calculate how much money EA has made. Examples: # of CE copies sold, # of Origin copies sold, how many customers have paid up in advance + for how many months, and how many people are subbed with a pending cancellation + will they follow through.

    Couple this with the 60 bazillion "expert analyst" projections of the gams costing anywhere between $80 million amd $600 million to create, and honestly it becomes impossible to tell if the game os making a profit. Bioware did say that 500k subs was their break even point though.

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  • iceman00iceman00 Member Posts: 1,363
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by DukeTyrion

    I normally find that by the time the actual numbers come out, most of the data has already been factored in by rumours in the market.

     

    Yup, investors and business folk base their multi-million decisions on rumors...

    Ever hear of speculators?  Maybe not rumors, but you make decisions based on hunches, anecdotal info, etc.  Rarely can you make moves off of clearly hard facts.  If you are making your investment decisions solely on hard facts, that tends to come after the fact, and you've either already made  alot or lost a lot.

    People make investments based on RISK.  Risk involves not always having hard facts.  Or do you think the stock market is just a cash register?

  • iceman00iceman00 Member Posts: 1,363
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by gw1228

    Exactly.

    Plus Battlefield 3 has sold almost 14 million copies. The profit from Battlefield 3 when all is said and done will be enough  to fund another SWTOR.

    Ehmm  some of that money will also fund FAILED projects  which EA has many  which means  just like SWTOR

    Ehmm. I hate to break it to you but SWTOR will make lots of money.

    Just like it was going to have millions of subscribers right?

    Could it?  Of course.  But [mod edit] hasn't really served this game well has it?

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061
    Originally posted by Souldrainer
    Originally posted by ktanner3
    Originally posted by strangelvbm

    I forsee one major issue with this FTP plan . They are basically giving away the best parts of the game (leveling/story 1-50) and charging for end game stuff (which most people will, including Bioware themselves, admit wasn't ready for prime time). Why do you think they hyped the Legacy system which was basically all about rolling alts. They KNEW the end game wasn't up to par.

    I unsubbed three months ago (didn't even log in for that free month they threw me), but it had nothing to do with the money. I will gladly pay 15 bucks a month for a game that I feel deserves it. SWTOR didn't.  The game is completely static. Nothing you do matters one iota. The choices you make IN YOUR OWN STORY don't even make a difference. And this coming from Bioware!? 

    Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see them turn this thing around, because a failure of this game will pretty much be a death sentence for future Star Wars MMOs. But from what I've seen by the direction they appear to be heading..........I just don't see it happening. 

    They are trying to fix a sinking ship by bailing out the water instead of patching the holes. Both methods are important, but one without the other and you are still sinking.

    I don't understand this move either. Unless they plan to charge for alt rolling I don't see this being successful. Or unless they REALLY do plan on adding more stuff for end game because that is the game's biggest weakness. 

     

    They are already displaying some vanity items. Vanity items are a proven seller in many games. In fact, Path of Exile plans to make 100% of its money from vanity items.
    That's nice but what good does vanity items do for players that have already gotten a few characters to top level and doesn't think that warzones and flashpoints is sufficient reason pay a sub fee? That is the underlining problem with this game from the start and it doesn't change with this new model. You might get a few vanity items sold if they are really bad ass(anything is an improvment over the high level gear currently in game), but how do you keep people there once they are done leveling ?  
    They really need to fix Ilum or make open PVP random on a weekly basis. One week the fight could be on Tattoine, the next week it could be on belsavis and so on.  Others have suggested opening up the casinos on Nar Shadar along with many other interesting ideas that don't require a massive overhaul.  Gear Grinding gets old after awhile and not everyone thinks "dress up" is a sufficient end game. 

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713

    You know if the break even point is 500K subs @ $15 month that is 7 and a half MILLION dollars per month to BREAK EVEN... Thats insane and anyone who ever would make an ENTERTAINMENT product which required that amout to be considered EVEN is a fool. And a fool and his money are soon parted.

    Forget the Moral implications (of which there are many involved including Layoffs for not making 7.5 MILLION per MONTH along with others) but the mere fact that this "GAME" was marketed as it was and is clearly not even an MMO and SWTOR and EA/BIO deserve nothing but to fail.

    I have said it before and will continue to say it- We need an MMO crash. A BILLION SWTOR being trucked into the desert one night ala Ataris ET. We need creativity and risk taking and that will ONLY happen once these obscene sums of money are no longer reqiered for success.

  • Atlan99Atlan99 Member UncommonPosts: 1,332
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I have said it before and will continue to say it- We need an MMO crash. A BILLION SWTOR being trucked into the desert one night ala Ataris ET. We need creativity and risk taking and that will ONLY happen once these obscene sums of money are no longer reqiered for success.

    Here is the problem. Until the consumer talks with his wallet and not his mouth. Things will stay as they are. Nobody plays the creative mmo's or supports them. At least to this point. 

    Either you are a vocal minority or mmo players have zero willpower and integrity. Because the sales and subscription numbers tell a very different story than the ones being told on the forums.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by Ringbus
    Originally posted by Burntvet

    A few of the game devs/publishers on different sites have discussed the "split" on retail sales a few times.

    In general, the RETAILER gets 65%-75% of the box price for physical copies, depending on the retailer. So for physical copies, the publisher is getting the small slice.

    For digitial distribution, the retailer gets in the 25%-30% range, for a major release large title.

    And even on the Origin sales (EA's distributor) I guarantee that they split out a similar amount even though it was an EA product being sold, because any such "sales commission" would be outside any revenue sharing deal with the IP holder, i.e. EA gets to keep that 25% off the top before paying anyone else, same as if another site sold the copies. So it would be profit for Origin. A technicality, but still money not going back into the TOR pot.

     

     

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    The percentages are roughly correct but there really isn't a split between the publisher and retail.

    Once the game has passed QA and has gone Gold:

    * The Gold Master disc is either mailed of uploaded to a duplicator who creates the physical game discs

    * Then the box components are assembled with duplicated discs

    * Storage is needed for the game boxes while they await shipment to retail stores

    * Either a distributor or sometimes like with EA in house people have been in the process of talking to retail chains to buy the game, give it good shelf space, set up endcaps for the game in stores

    * X number of units are sold to the retailer usually in the 20 something dollar range that the retailer then marks up to the normal 60 dollar retail price.

    * Then the boxes are shipped from the publisher or distributor to each retail customer

    Each of those steps in the publisher to retail shelf takes its chunk out of the 20 something dollars in revenue the pubisher's revenue. Each game has a different in the amounts each stage takes or the details of the steps - in house distribution vs third party for example.

    So the 20 something dollars in revenue have the duplication costs, box materials and assembly, storage and shipping, distribution costs either internal or third party all subtracted from the revenue.

    Once all that is subracted from the publisher's revenue from game sales then you start subtracting off the costs to develop the game and the ongoing costs to keep the gaming running, updated, and supported for customers.

     

    Good detail on the downstream distribution stuff, my own personal view of similar things has been about what does and does not come back to the developer/publisher/producer.

    And I did skip the whole wholesale to retail mark-up as simply being part of the process and again, what goes back to the producer.

    But what you say looks to be spot on.

     

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by Burntvet
     

    A few of the game devs/publishers on different sites have discussed the "split" on retail sales a few times.

    In general, the RETAILER gets 65%-75% of the box price for physical copies, depending on the retailer. So for physical copies, the publisher is getting the small slice.

    For digitial distribution, the retailer gets in the 25%-30% range, for a major release large title.

    And even on the Origin sales (EA's distributor) I guarantee that they split out a similar amount even though it was an EA product being sold, because any such "sales commission" would be outside any revenue sharing deal with the IP holder, i.e. EA gets to keep that 25% off the top before paying anyone else, same as if another site sold the copies. So it would be profit for Origin. A technicality, but still money not going back into the TOR pot.

     

    This $50-$60 a box crap going to EA that people throw around makes me laugh.

     

    Your logic is so flawed I don't know what to say. When EA makes, publishes and distributes a game it makes all of that money. 

    100%

    When they make a digital sale through origin they make 100% of the money. 

    And I suppose EA owns Walmart and Gamestop as well and those companies are happy to sell EA products for free?

    How about no.

    For the record, other digital distributors sold plenty of copies of TOR, and no, 100% of the money did not go back to EA.

     

    I guess you missed the word TECHNICALITY. Even so...

    And then there is Origin: When they sell a copy of an EA product, a percentage of that sale, commensurate with what other sites/digital retailers get, gets put into a little a box titled: "Origin Revenue". Yes, that money goes back to big EA revenue eventually, but not at the front end, which was the whole point.

    Perhaps you might look into how corporations are run or perhaps work for one, before talking ignorantly about corporate finance.

    Things run this way BECAUSE more direct revenue from TOR sales would go back to EA, in the form of a "sales commission" than as part of general TOR revenue. As sales commissions are outside the general revenue sharing agreements (between EA, LA and whomever else)  for things like TOR, EA gets to keep the slice of Origin sales, and LA gets nothing. That is why they do it.

    Sneaky, but fully legal.

     

     

     

  • RingbusRingbus Member Posts: 36
    Originally posted by Burntvet 

    Good detail on the downstream distribution stuff, my own personal view of similar things has been about what does and does not come back to the developer/publisher/producer.

    And I did skip the whole whole to retail mark-up as simply being part of the process and again, what goes back to the producer.

    But what you say looks to be spot on.

     

    Cheers.

    Was just adding more info from personal experience and in no way a flame.

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I have said it before and will continue to say it- We need an MMO crash. A BILLION SWTOR being trucked into the desert one night ala Ataris ET. We need creativity and risk taking and that will ONLY happen once these obscene sums of money are no longer reqiered for success.

    Here is the problem. Until the consumer talks with his wallet and not his mouth. Things will stay as they are. Nobody plays the creative mmo's or supports them. At least to this point. 

    Either you are a vocal minority or mmo players have zero willpower and integrity. Because the sales and subscription numbers tell a very different story than the ones being told on the forums.

    I fully agree. And I do (support indies) and I do not play the current crop of AAA MMOs. And I am a vocal minority =(

    You are right- And its the hype and marketing and brainwashing (yes, that IS what marketing is) that people keep falling for time and time again. I recently saw a documentary about Marketing for Children and thy actually take EKG measurments to see which parts of the brain light up using certain images and words. This isnt tinfoil hat stuff anymore and the top Phycologists are being employed in Marketing.

    ...BUT. Marketing will only go so far and as game budgets are approaching the the point of collapse (and they are) the point of no return WILL happen and there WILL be a crash.

    After a few more spectacular failures we will see a focus on smaller budgets , less overhead and  more niche games made to maintain smaller playebases and still be viable. Its coming I hope) and until then I will continue to support creativity and games I like . So far the AAA market is stale IMHO but once they change I will support them as well.

    -Or I will find a new hobby =(

    In fact I havnt played an MMO in a Couple yteaars (as in regularly)  until very recently. And its an Idie and very creative.

  • ClawzonClawzon Member UncommonPosts: 188
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I have said it before and will continue to say it- We need an MMO crash. A BILLION SWTOR being trucked into the desert one night ala Ataris ET. We need creativity and risk taking and that will ONLY happen once these obscene sums of money are no longer reqiered for success.

    Here is the problem. Until the consumer talks with his wallet and not his mouth. Things will stay as they are. Nobody plays the creative mmo's or supports them. At least to this point. 

    Either you are a vocal minority or mmo players have zero willpower and integrity. Because the sales and subscription numbers tell a very different story than the ones being told on the forums.

    I fully agree. And I do (support indies) and I do not play the current crop of AAA MMOs. And I am a vocal minority =(

    You are right- And its the hype and marketing and brainwashing (yes, that IS what marketing is) that people keep falling for time and time again. I recently saw a documentary about Marketing for Children and thy actually take EKG measurments to see which parts of the brain light up using certain images and words. This isnt tinfoil hat stuff anymore and the top Phycologists are being employed in Marketing.

    ...BUT. Marketing will only go so far and as game budgets are approaching the the point of collapse (and they are) the point of no return WILL happen and there WILL be a crash.

    After a few more spectacular failures we will see a focus on smaller budgets , less overhead and  more niche games made to maintain smaller playebases and still be viable. Its coming I hope) and until then I will continue to support creativity and games I like . So far the AAA market is stale IMHO but once they change I will support them as well.

    -Or I will find a new hobby =(

    In fact I havnt played an MMO in a Couple yteaars (as in regularly)  until very recently. And its an Idie and very creative.

    Then you must be a very very happy mmo:er!!! I don't see the problem!? An Indie developed mmo that you find creative and most likely adore! Nice! Right?

    :)

  • SaintPhilipSaintPhilip Member Posts: 713
    Originally posted by Clawzon
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip
    Originally posted by Atlan99
    Originally posted by SaintPhilip

    I have said it before and will continue to say it- We need an MMO crash. A BILLION SWTOR being trucked into the desert one night ala Ataris ET. We need creativity and risk taking and that will ONLY happen once these obscene sums of money are no longer reqiered for success.

    Here is the problem. Until the consumer talks with his wallet and not his mouth. Things will stay as they are. Nobody plays the creative mmo's or supports them. At least to this point. 

    Either you are a vocal minority or mmo players have zero willpower and integrity. Because the sales and subscription numbers tell a very different story than the ones being told on the forums.

    I fully agree. And I do (support indies) and I do not play the current crop of AAA MMOs. And I am a vocal minority =(

    You are right- And its the hype and marketing and brainwashing (yes, that IS what marketing is) that people keep falling for time and time again. I recently saw a documentary about Marketing for Children and thy actually take EKG measurments to see which parts of the brain light up using certain images and words. This isnt tinfoil hat stuff anymore and the top Phycologists are being employed in Marketing.

    ...BUT. Marketing will only go so far and as game budgets are approaching the the point of collapse (and they are) the point of no return WILL happen and there WILL be a crash.

    After a few more spectacular failures we will see a focus on smaller budgets , less overhead and  more niche games made to maintain smaller playebases and still be viable. Its coming I hope) and until then I will continue to support creativity and games I like . So far the AAA market is stale IMHO but once they change I will support them as well.

    -Or I will find a new hobby =(

    In fact I havnt played an MMO in a Couple yteaars (as in regularly)  until very recently. And its an Idie and very creative.

    Then you must be a very very happy mmo:er!!! I don't see the problem!? An Inde developed mmo that you find creative and most likely adore! Nice! Right?

    Sure- But the indies need bigger budgets and teams. What I am talking about is an equalibrium where AAA quality games are innovative and fun. Where Indie IDEAS meet AAA quality. Mu appologies for not being clear.

  • lugallugal Member UncommonPosts: 671

    I think the easiest way to stop the devs from making these horrid games is people stop preordering games. I saved so much while watching my friends jump on the latest bandwagon as it would come out. Each time, after a month or two, they lose interest. Yet they repeat the cycle.

    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    The reviewer has a mishapen head
    Which means his opinion is skewed
    ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley

  • GorillaGorilla Member UncommonPosts: 2,234
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    EA in particular and Bioware through association are dishonest when to comes to providing accurate subscribing player totals. They get away with it for now but I will not be surprised if they are eventually brought to heel for lying to their shareholders by ommission if not fact. It’s a shadey business practice if not yet criminal beyond shadow of a doubt. They constantly fluff numbers by including people on trial accounts, free to play week ends, and every other scheming twist that they can get away with to spin numbers higher for their shareholders without ever really indicating the current number of players logged in and paying this or that month.

     ...snip...

    Indeed. I wonder if Goldman will downgrade them, hanging up on one of the mostinfluencial people on the street......classic.

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