good thing this game failed, I didnt want to see other single player RPGs start charging a $15 fee -- and I most certainly dont want to see anymore generic wow inspired "MMOs" come out. hopefully this is the end of the WoW clones.
take note...
SWTOR failed
but
Rift Succeeded
both were called WoW clone.
Hey even LoTRO was called a WoW clone, and was very successful....despite going F2P
As far as RIFT being a WoW clone or not, it had influences from a few MMOs, none more heavily then EQ2. Regardless, for the sake of argument lets say RIFT was a flat-out WoW clone -- In addition RIFT was a solid, fun, well polished game which was made by MMO vets -- Devs who knew how to make a good MMO. SWTOR problems go far beyond just being a WoW, clone , it was at its core -- a very bad game -- EA has a horrid track record for MMOs and Bioware has none. And it showed.
You also call SWTOR a WoW clone. . then in the next breath call in a Single player RPG.
How's this: the basic design is WoW after the car thieves have stripped it and left it on blocks. It's a single player RPG because it's so thin on content/activities/depth that one minute you are playing with your friends, and the next they have all unsubbed--leaving you to play by yourself.
Not the end to WoW clones, the end to big budget MMOs for sure. Too risky an investment.
That is what concerns me. maybe in the future this will be good for the industry.
But don't look for any really good MMO's to enter development phase for several years now. And expect existing ones to play it a lot more conservatively.
Everyone dancing over the grave of TOR should stop and ponder that.
As the chinese say "Beware what you wish for." Why would any company want to invest money in MMOs? They are expensive to make and maintain plus their track record the past ten years hasn't been good. We could see MMOs going the way of the laserdisc, but hey, at least we don't have to be bothered by those themeparks, I mean WOW clones, that seem to make people here so hot and bothered.
Game developement mimicks previous success and iterates... atleast in the AAA area.
Failure is simply viewed as "merely a set back".
Plus Faiiure is a word bandied around too often here. Sure SWTOR didnt live up to expectations, but it is hardly a "failure" its just not a breakout success and that is what people wanted it to be.
Now we have had the litmus test for the sub model here is the next question, if it doesnt do the business as a F2P will we have people decrying F2P as dead too?
good thing this game failed, I didnt want to see other single player RPGs start charging a $15 fee -- and I most certainly dont want to see anymore generic wow inspired "MMOs" come out. hopefully this is the end of the WoW clones.
Agreed. With such a huge title going F2P this has surely got to register with the mmo devs and investors who have been blindly following the WoW model for so many years.
The thing is though, this is a bad thing for the MMO genre as a whole. Investors wont see this as "oh people dont want WoW clones anymore", they'll see one of the biggest/best game devs around (Bioware) developing a game based on one of the most profitable/biggest games in history (WoW), on one of the biggest IP's in the world (Star Wars), with reportedly one of the biggest budgets for a game.... and it was a failure. What investor would want to put money into this genre now. They have 2 choices - go the seemingly sure-fire-hit SWTOR route, which is now a failure, or take a chance on a different untested route.. and investors dont like taking chances (see: WoW clones). They'll simply take their money elsewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bethesda delays TESO. Just don't panic.
Would be great but I doubt it. You would basically have to admit you are heading down the path to a massive mistake, and you were wrong.
When forced to admit they were wrong versus plunging forward into the fail, most people will put on their swim caps and goggles and dive right in.
Yeh, if a delay in TESO was announced any time soon they may aswell just put a big banner up saying "lol our game is shit and SWTOR is a failure so now we need to re-think our bad game design choices". TESO will probably get delayed, just caus most MMO's do, but I agree that most people refuse to admit their wrong and redesign the game... and even if they wanted to they're probably way too far in to change now.
The thing is though, this is a bad thing for the MMO genre as a whole. Investors wont see this as "oh people dont want WoW clones anymore", they'll see one of the biggest/best game devs around (Bioware) developing a game based on one of the most profitable/biggest games in history (WoW), on one of the biggest IP's in the world (Star Wars), with reportedly one of the biggest budgets for a game.... and it was a failure. What investor would want to put money into this genre now. They have 2 choices - go the seemingly sure-fire-hit SWTOR route, which is now a failure, or take a chance on a different untested route.. and investors dont like taking chances (see: WoW clones). They'll simply take their money elsewhere.
Well, hopefully they are not THAT stupid. What they should see, is that 2.4M+ boxes were sold, so people clearly wanted to play this game.
Maybe if they try and find out what players really want from a MMO, they can be far more confident that they would be able to make a success of one. In the case of BioWare, it does not help you at all if you listen only to your current SP game fans.
Them being safe with their money isnt them being stupid, quite the contrary its them being smart. No other MMO has even come close to WoW's revenue and success. The 2.4M+ box sales to them probably comes from the Star Wars IP (its probably accurate too). Even though we all have these great ideas for MMO's we would like to play - its pretty much a fact that there is no game model other than WoW that has shown to be a gauranteed mega-hit. Doing anything other than a WoW-clone is a big risk, and like i said investors dont like risks.
They wont see MMO's as a whole being as profitable as they'd assumed, and wont bother putting money into them. If anything they'll probably see that they can whack an established IP on a bad game and come out with a few million box sales then do a runner.
As the chinese say "Beware what you wish for." Why would any company want to invest money in MMOs? They are expensive to make and maintain plus their track record the past ten years hasn't been good. We could see MMOs going the way of the laserdisc, but hey, at least we don't have to be bothered by those themeparks, I mean WOW clones, that seem to make people here so hot and bothered.
Of course companies should want to invest in a MMO. SWTOR would have been absolutely MASSIVE if it was a MMO.
The thing is, if you as a company decide to develop a MMO, make damn sure you know what one is.
+1
They managed the development in such a way that the U.S. Government could have spent the money better. Final product was anemic and broken. Dev team unable (or unwilling) to fix the game. ------> F2P
Now we can keep the game in its original mold, expectations are lowered, and we can spin it as a move to stay up with industry trends.
The thing the might (probably will) happen is that big time investors will be quite reluctant to put their monies in WoW clones.
BUT, eldorado named WoW is still out there, potential is still out there, but when investing in new projects they (from now on) might be looking for more innovative ways to snatch the grand prize, so yah, it quite likely might be end of big budget/big IP WoW clones.
You can't blame TORs failure on it being a "WoW clone", RIFT proves there is room for a game to be successful using that model and there are those that want to play them.
TORs lack of success comes down to the fact it is a terrible game, even by single player standards the games quality is subpar. Combine that with EA's typicial abandoning of failing products pretty much sealed TORs fate right from the start, anyone with a grain of sense could see EA was just trying to stem their losses even before release.
Hopefully this will be a lesson to both game producers and us consumers. Sad really, mmos have more potential than any other genre and yet they have been the most abused and lackluster in recent memory.
The thing is though, this is a bad thing for the MMO genre as a whole. Investors wont see this as "oh people dont want WoW clones anymore", they'll see one of the biggest/best game devs around (Bioware) developing a game based on one of the most profitable/biggest games in history (WoW), on one of the biggest IP's in the world (Star Wars), with reportedly one of the biggest budgets for a game.... and it was a failure. What investor would want to put money into this genre now. They have 2 choices - go the seemingly sure-fire-hit SWTOR route, which is now a failure, or take a chance on a different untested route.. and investors dont like taking chances (see: WoW clones). They'll simply take their money elsewhere.
Well, hopefully they are not THAT stupid. What they should see, is that 2.4M+ boxes were sold, so people clearly wanted to play this game.
Maybe if they try and find out what players really want from a MMO, they can be far more confident that they would be able to make a success of one. In the case of BioWare, it does not help you at all if you listen only to your current SP game fans.
Them being safe with their money isnt them being stupid, quite the contrary its them being smart. No other MMO has even come close to WoW's revenue and success. The 2.4M+ box sales to them probably comes from the Star Wars IP (its probably accurate too). Even though we all have these great ideas for MMO's we would like to play - its pretty much a fact that there is no game model other than WoW that has shown to be a gauranteed mega-hit. Doing anything other than a WoW-clone is a big risk, and like i said investors dont like risks.
They wont see MMO's as a whole being as profitable as they'd assumed, and wont bother putting money into them. If anything they'll probably see that they can whack an established IP on a bad game and come out with a few million box sales then do a runner.
^^This. As many people are rejoicing the financial failure of TOR, this also probably marks the beginning of the end of the genre. No major company would see putting money into the development of an MMO as a safe investment. You guys can argue all you want about the reasons for TOR's financial failures. At the end of the day, the suits with the money will just see this as a money-losing venture.
I wouldn't be surprised if TESO gets cancelled along with other pending titles (WoD?)
Don't count on WoW clones going anywhere as long as those games are making any kind of money. We're mostly sick to death of them here, but a lot of gamers eat that style up.
TOR still hasn't failed. It hasn't succeeded up to expectations by any stretch of the imagination, but as it's still running and making a profit... I'd say it's okay.
good thing this game failed, I didnt want to see other single player RPGs start charging a $15 fee -- and I most certainly dont want to see anymore generic wow inspired "MMOs" come out. hopefully this is the end of the WoW clones.
take note...
SWTOR failed
but
Rift Succeeded
both were called WoW clone.
Hey even LoTRO was called a WoW clone, and was very successful....despite going F2P
SWTOR failed because it was chalk full of bugs and other issues from the start. While polished a bit more yet certainly not perfect, RIFT started the race strong.
There was too much instancing in ToR, the world(s) felt small.
The term clone when referring to mmos, is the absolute laziest way around actually using your brain to put together coherent sentences regarding your thoughts and opinions. It's on par with quoting family guy to try and be funny.
mmo gamers are passionate and over-sensitive about their beloved genre, and why shouldn't they be? It is either a place for them to take control of their day for a few hours after having absolutely no control over it most days of the week, or a place for them to spend all their waking hours in.
I just find it odd that instead of saying what they think they just spew the word clone. Yes you input something on your keyboard, and something happens on screen, that is the way it will be for some years to come. You however get out of the game what you put into it, there is plenty to enjoy in SWTOR that was nothing like, or at least improved upon other mechanics in mmos of recent years, just like Guild Wars 2 will improve and has improved upon any mechanic I have experienced in every mmo that I have played, which is nearly all of them.
true there are too many clone out there,gw1 being cloned(c9,dragonest etc) wow being cloned to death!and lets not forget part of some game blizzard made (aka dota)at least some use a bit more of 3 d in the moba genre like supermondaynightcombat!one title that i expect will do great is smite!but sadly it is not a mmo in the mmorpg world?mm we ll be either in gw2 or mop i suspect!
good thing this game failed, I didnt want to see other single player RPGs start charging a $15 fee -- and I most certainly dont want to see anymore generic wow inspired "MMOs" come out. hopefully this is the end of the WoW clones.
Amen to that.
I know its wrong to wish anything or anyone to fail but damn was I happy to hear yet "ANOTHER" WoW clone failed. Hopefully studios and developers realize ONE thing. theres only enough room in the MMO genre for ONE game like WoW......that is WoW.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Every MMo is basically a Wow clone, which of course was a copy of ealier MMO's. Sure some have minor differences in how they quest or combat and develope characters, but in the end they are all related in their basics. That said the basic flaws SWTor has have nothing to do with WoW but in how the developers made their choices. We all have our own opinions but to me they failed in the lack openess of the worlds, too few questing/leveling paths as their main hook is doing multiple characters for their story lines, Space that was pretty meaningless, No real purpose end game with meaningful RvR to name a few.
The game was actually quite fun for me to do the story lines and i even did more 2 party grouping than any other MMO i can remember, but the limited content with no real purpose to RvR at end game left me wanting. Why this game was put on rails and doesn't seem to be able to handle a large volume of peeps without instanting really degraded the over all experience. When comparing this to WoW it lacks in almost all areas except for the voice story quests and maybe the companions that were another nice touch. So I would surmise the Wow (or basic MMO) model is far from dead and until something comes out and beats that model hands down, it will be the model developers use for future MMO's. What the developers need to learn is how to make a world alive and interesting enough for players to play past the end level. They proven no sense of community, shallow RvR/PvP, repetitive end game quests equals loss of player base.
Comments
As far as RIFT being a WoW clone or not, it had influences from a few MMOs, none more heavily then EQ2. Regardless, for the sake of argument lets say RIFT was a flat-out WoW clone -- In addition RIFT was a solid, fun, well polished game which was made by MMO vets -- Devs who knew how to make a good MMO. SWTOR problems go far beyond just being a WoW, clone , it was at its core -- a very bad game -- EA has a horrid track record for MMOs and Bioware has none. And it showed.
How's this: the basic design is WoW after the car thieves have stripped it and left it on blocks. It's a single player RPG because it's so thin on content/activities/depth that one minute you are playing with your friends, and the next they have all unsubbed--leaving you to play by yourself.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
As the chinese say "Beware what you wish for." Why would any company want to invest money in MMOs? They are expensive to make and maintain plus their track record the past ten years hasn't been good. We could see MMOs going the way of the laserdisc, but hey, at least we don't have to be bothered by those themeparks, I mean WOW clones, that seem to make people here so hot and bothered.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
The END of forced gear grinding to be sure.
This effectively makes mandatory Raiding obsolete.
There will always be another developer out there ready to make a WoW clone. They just can't help themselves...
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
Nothing will change.
Game developement mimicks previous success and iterates... atleast in the AAA area.
Failure is simply viewed as "merely a set back".
Plus Faiiure is a word bandied around too often here. Sure SWTOR didnt live up to expectations, but it is hardly a "failure" its just not a breakout success and that is what people wanted it to be.
Now we have had the litmus test for the sub model here is the next question, if it doesnt do the business as a F2P will we have people decrying F2P as dead too?
One can only hope. ^^
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The thing is though, this is a bad thing for the MMO genre as a whole. Investors wont see this as "oh people dont want WoW clones anymore", they'll see one of the biggest/best game devs around (Bioware) developing a game based on one of the most profitable/biggest games in history (WoW), on one of the biggest IP's in the world (Star Wars), with reportedly one of the biggest budgets for a game.... and it was a failure. What investor would want to put money into this genre now. They have 2 choices - go the seemingly sure-fire-hit SWTOR route, which is now a failure, or take a chance on a different untested route.. and investors dont like taking chances (see: WoW clones). They'll simply take their money elsewhere.
Yeh, if a delay in TESO was announced any time soon they may aswell just put a big banner up saying "lol our game is shit and SWTOR is a failure so now we need to re-think our bad game design choices". TESO will probably get delayed, just caus most MMO's do, but I agree that most people refuse to admit their wrong and redesign the game... and even if they wanted to they're probably way too far in to change now.
Them being safe with their money isnt them being stupid, quite the contrary its them being smart. No other MMO has even come close to WoW's revenue and success. The 2.4M+ box sales to them probably comes from the Star Wars IP (its probably accurate too). Even though we all have these great ideas for MMO's we would like to play - its pretty much a fact that there is no game model other than WoW that has shown to be a gauranteed mega-hit. Doing anything other than a WoW-clone is a big risk, and like i said investors dont like risks.
They wont see MMO's as a whole being as profitable as they'd assumed, and wont bother putting money into them. If anything they'll probably see that they can whack an established IP on a bad game and come out with a few million box sales then do a runner.
I wouldn't be surpried if they've been down talking TESO in interviews on purpose.
+1
They managed the development in such a way that the U.S. Government could have spent the money better. Final product was anemic and broken. Dev team unable (or unwilling) to fix the game. ------> F2P
Now we can keep the game in its original mold, expectations are lowered, and we can spin it as a move to stay up with industry trends.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
The thing the might (probably will) happen is that big time investors will be quite reluctant to put their monies in WoW clones.
BUT, eldorado named WoW is still out there, potential is still out there, but when investing in new projects they (from now on) might be looking for more innovative ways to snatch the grand prize, so yah, it quite likely might be end of big budget/big IP WoW clones.
You can't blame TORs failure on it being a "WoW clone", RIFT proves there is room for a game to be successful using that model and there are those that want to play them.
TORs lack of success comes down to the fact it is a terrible game, even by single player standards the games quality is subpar. Combine that with EA's typicial abandoning of failing products pretty much sealed TORs fate right from the start, anyone with a grain of sense could see EA was just trying to stem their losses even before release.
TESO really needs to be f2p from the start.
TESO appears to be developing the a Betamax system in a VHS world.
^^This. As many people are rejoicing the financial failure of TOR, this also probably marks the beginning of the end of the genre. No major company would see putting money into the development of an MMO as a safe investment. You guys can argue all you want about the reasons for TOR's financial failures. At the end of the day, the suits with the money will just see this as a money-losing venture.
I wouldn't be surprised if TESO gets cancelled along with other pending titles (WoD?)
Don't count on WoW clones going anywhere as long as those games are making any kind of money. We're mostly sick to death of them here, but a lot of gamers eat that style up.
TOR still hasn't failed. It hasn't succeeded up to expectations by any stretch of the imagination, but as it's still running and making a profit... I'd say it's okay.
SWTOR failed because it was chalk full of bugs and other issues from the start. While polished a bit more yet certainly not perfect, RIFT started the race strong.
There was too much instancing in ToR, the world(s) felt small.
mmo gamers are passionate and over-sensitive about their beloved genre, and why shouldn't they be? It is either a place for them to take control of their day for a few hours after having absolutely no control over it most days of the week, or a place for them to spend all their waking hours in.
I just find it odd that instead of saying what they think they just spew the word clone. Yes you input something on your keyboard, and something happens on screen, that is the way it will be for some years to come. You however get out of the game what you put into it, there is plenty to enjoy in SWTOR that was nothing like, or at least improved upon other mechanics in mmos of recent years, just like Guild Wars 2 will improve and has improved upon any mechanic I have experienced in every mmo that I have played, which is nearly all of them.
true there are too many clone out there,gw1 being cloned(c9,dragonest etc) wow being cloned to death!and lets not forget part of some game blizzard made (aka dota)at least some use a bit more of 3 d in the moba genre like supermondaynightcombat!one title that i expect will do great is smite!but sadly it is not a mmo in the mmorpg world?mm we ll be either in gw2 or mop i suspect!
so clone are here to stay i am sad to say!
Amen to that.
I know its wrong to wish anything or anyone to fail but damn was I happy to hear yet "ANOTHER" WoW clone failed. Hopefully studios and developers realize ONE thing. theres only enough room in the MMO genre for ONE game like WoW......that is WoW.
Bring on the innovation.
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Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Nah, one more epic fail to come, TESO.
TEStanic?
Every MMo is basically a Wow clone, which of course was a copy of ealier MMO's. Sure some have minor differences in how they quest or combat and develope characters, but in the end they are all related in their basics. That said the basic flaws SWTor has have nothing to do with WoW but in how the developers made their choices. We all have our own opinions but to me they failed in the lack openess of the worlds, too few questing/leveling paths as their main hook is doing multiple characters for their story lines, Space that was pretty meaningless, No real purpose end game with meaningful RvR to name a few.
The game was actually quite fun for me to do the story lines and i even did more 2 party grouping than any other MMO i can remember, but the limited content with no real purpose to RvR at end game left me wanting. Why this game was put on rails and doesn't seem to be able to handle a large volume of peeps without instanting really degraded the over all experience. When comparing this to WoW it lacks in almost all areas except for the voice story quests and maybe the companions that were another nice touch. So I would surmise the Wow (or basic MMO) model is far from dead and until something comes out and beats that model hands down, it will be the model developers use for future MMO's. What the developers need to learn is how to make a world alive and interesting enough for players to play past the end level. They proven no sense of community, shallow RvR/PvP, repetitive end game quests equals loss of player base.