Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging.
But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW.
In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
wow .. a full group of dps cleared an instance and 1 shot the last boss on their first time in there? and this is somehow a good thing? really?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging.
But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW.
In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
I certainly hope you are right. But it is the opposite of what the other guy said.
I would also say that if you look at the trinity in EQ or VG, it is anything but a 'one tactic fits all' style. Where, WoW, Rift and TOR seemed to be exactly as you stated, I don't think it can be universally applied to all games with the trinity.
How do you provide for a variety of tactics being necessary in the trinity? It's simple. Make aggro something you have to work for or a challenge to get rid of. That's all it takes, and the trinity can provide some of the most challenging battles I've ever played.
My favorite mmo's of all time have utilised the trinity. So have my least favorite.
People keep acting like its the system thats the problem, when in my opinion, it all has to do with implementation.
No matter the system, if it is implemented well, it will be entertaining and challenging.
I'm just not ready to say that fun I had in EQ or VG came from a system that is totally flawed.
I give them points for mixing it up in GW2. But, like others have noted, I think it didn't kill the trinity, I think it just implemented it differently. And I'm glad, someone needed to address the issues with 3 out of 5 players waiting on the other 2 before they could do anything. I'm simply skeptical if it will work well.
And in the current climate of mmos - I think it is odd that people don't understand the skepticism. This isn't the first game to release with visions of Utopia; I think all gamers should identify with those who will believe it only when they see it.
And as a final note, I just have to say, when I write my epic fantasy novel:
I won't have one character who can heal, do damage and take damage all at once. I certainly wouldn't write about a guy who switches from swords to daggers and then to a 2 handed in the same battle. Basically, I am saying that part of what attracts me to the fantasy genre are the 'roles' individuals play. The idea of an armored knight who doesn't rely on magic but rather his brute strength. The leather-clad rogue sneaking in the shadows. The faithful cleric who gains their powers of healing through their faith. I never dream about the leather-clad rogue who can heal himself and take on any foe head to head......that's not a 'role' to play, that's all the 'roles'.
And I am skeptical about taking the 'role' out of rpg. They already took the 'massively' out of mmo. I fear that the loss of 'roles' in roll playing games is actually another brick OUT of the wall. And in a few years time all we will have left is MOGs.
And that's not what I envisioned the future as being.
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging.
But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW.
In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
I certainly hope you are right. But it is the opposite of what the other guy said.
I would also say that if you look at the trinity in EQ or VG, it is anything but a 'one tactic fits all' style. Where, WoW, Rift and TOR seemed to be exactly as you stated, I don't think it can be universally applied to all games with the trinity.
How do you provide for a variety of tactics being necessary in the trinity? It's simple. Make aggro something you have to work for or a challenge to get rid of. That's all it takes, and the trinity can provide some of the most challenging battles I've ever played.
My favorite mmo's of all time have utilised the trinity. So have my least favorite.
People keep acting like its the system thats the problem, when in my opinion, it all has to do with implementation.
No matter the system, if it is implemented well, it will be entertaining and challenging.
I'm just not ready to say that fun I had in EQ or VG came from a broken system.
And in the current climate of mmos - I think it is odd that people don't understand the skepticism. This isn't the first game to release with visions of Utopia; I think all gamers should identify with those who will believe it only when they see it.
I wouldn't call the trinity a broken system at all. It can be a lot of fun, and like you I have had tons of fun in trinity games.
That said, there is something that I personally do not like about trinity systems, and that's being forced to specialize into a very narrow niche in order to be successful. I have played a hybrid class in every single trinity game I have ever played, and the reason for this is because I hate being stuck in one role. I always want to have the flexibility to do different thing.
So for me, a game without the trinity is a breath of fresh air. But I do acknowledge that it's not a bad system, and a good game can get a lot of mileage out of it.
Originally posted by Creslin321 Originally posted by ZorgoOriginally posted by Creslin321Originally posted by ZorgoOriginally posted by Magnnarot
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,Careful there -Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.Your statement says:You won't wipe as much.To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.So take this opportunity to correct me.In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging. But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW. In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult. I certainly hope you are right. But it is the opposite of what the other guy said.I would also say that if you look at the trinity in EQ or VG, it is anything but a 'one tactic fits all' style. Where, WoW, Rift and TOR seemed to be exactly as you stated, I don't think it can be universally applied to all games with the trinity.How do you provide for a variety of tactics being necessary in the trinity? It's simple. Make aggro something you have to work for or a challenge to get rid of. That's all it takes, and the trinity can provide some of the most challenging battles I've ever played.My favorite mmo's of all time have utilised the trinity. So have my least favorite.People keep acting like its the system thats the problem, when in my opinion, it all has to do with implementation.No matter the system, if it is implemented well, it will be entertaining and challenging.I'm just not ready to say that fun I had in EQ or VG came from a broken system.And in the current climate of mmos - I think it is odd that people don't understand the skepticism. This isn't the first game to release with visions of Utopia; I think all gamers should identify with those who will believe it only when they see it.I wouldn't call the trinity a broken system at all. It can be a lot of fun, and like you I have had tons of fun in trinity games.
That said, there is something that I personally do not like about trinity systems, and that's being forced to specialize into a very narrow niche in order to be successful. I have played a hybrid class in every single trinity game I have ever played, and the reason for this is because I hate being stuck in one role. I always want to have the flexibility to do different thing.
So for me, a game without the trinity is a breath of fresh air. But I do acknowledge that it's not a bad system, and a good game can get a lot of mileage out of it.
I've rarely found it necessary to be super specialized unless you are on the bleeding edge of progression until the last couple of years. everything is about inflated numbers now. Back in VG and vanilla wow, and my finite exp in EQ/EQ2, I never found it necessary. we had balance druids, ret pallies, and disc priests and did just fine. yes you needed certain specs, but if they had just implemented dual specs early on, we'd probably be looking at a very different genre. so much didn't have to change so drastically. the genre just wasnt ready for the influx of people and reacted poorly to it. and now devs perpetuate it like it's law.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging.
But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW.
In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
I did Ascalonian Catacombs in BWE2 on a level 32 warrior in story mode and I got my ass kicked, in fact all of us did, at least initially. The mobs, even the trash, hit hard, and the game was unforgiving when you didn't dodge or use damage mitigation. And the traps, we really didn't expect so many traps. We completed it, it took about an hour, and I would rate the experience as a "B". Remember this was BWE2 and there have been changes since then, especially for melee.
I am certain that we would have done better as a guild and using vent, and I think much closer coordination may be necessary for groups to do explorable modes, at least initially.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Not sure if it's been covered, the thread is tl;dr but what about those players who like being the tank or healer? Should they look to a different game?
I have a nasty habit of hitting 'post message' on my rough draft. It goes up, I re-read and make alterations. Typically, this is while someone is responding to me.
So if anyone cares, my edit is a little closer to what I meant.
And I've appreciated your comments Cresin, they are the most level-headed responses I've had about this topic.
I'm going to play GW2 also. I mean, I buy em all, god love me. If this system is implemented well, I will become a believer. For the same reasons, it will be nice to have a breath of fresh air.
However, I'm too old, grizzled and battlehardened to every buy an mmo expecting it will be money well spent. I buy, I like, I grow to dislike, i unsub and uninstall within 3 months.
I still play the same crap I did 5 to 10 years ago in between.
Not sure if it's been covered, the thread is tl;dr but what about those players who like being the tank or healer? Should they look to a different game?
Yeah, there is no designated "tank" or "healing" role.
Some classes/builds are more "tanky" and some have a wider range of group healing skills, but people looking for a traditional class system of tank, healer, dps are not going to find it here.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
I did Ascalonian Catacombs in BWE2 on a level 32 warrior in story mode and I got my ass kicked, in fact all of us did, at least initially. The mobs, even the trash, hit hard, and the game was unforgiving when you didn't dodge or use damage mitigation. And the traps, we really didn't expect so many traps. We completed it, it took about an hour, and I would rate the experience as a "B". Remember this was BWE2 and there have been changes since then, especially for melee.
I am certain that we would have done better as a guild and using vent, and I think much closer coordination may be necessary for groups to do explorable modes, at least initially.
The story mode gets a lot easier once you understand it a little better. It does seem insane the first time around, because there's soo much being thrown at you, you don't know what to react to first.
That said, if you thought that was hard, the explorables will punch you in the throat. They are waay harder than the storymodes. And yea, they are going to require you at least communicate with your team (not necessarily in vent, but at least spell out a plan in /party before you start the fight).
Not sure if it's been covered, the thread is tl;dr but what about those players who like being the tank or healer? Should they look to a different game?
Yeah, there is no designated "tank" or "healing" role.
Some classes/builds are more "tanky" and some have a wider range of group healing skills, but people looking for a traditional class system of tank, healer, dps are not going to find it here.
This is a somewhat tricky issue.
There are some specs that will feel more 'tanky' or more 'heal-heavy', but they won't be the same as you'd be used to in a trinity game.
If you are used to being the main tank, you may enjoy the guardian. They are pretty fun too, and are really good at support / mitigating damage. You won't have a taunt, or any sort of threat mechanic, though; so you will have to tank by physically getting in the way, and running when you start to take too much dmg.
Healers have it a bit worse off, tbh. People that are looking for a 'main heal' type class, will probably need to find a new playstyle to enjoy if they really want to try GW2. There are a couple specs that have some healing (water elementalist, and support heavy guardian, or healing shouts spec warrior), but it's going to be nothing like you're used to in trinity-based games. There's just no heals strong enough to heal through the damage output in this game. This game is mostly about avoiding damage, rather than healing through it, so the closest thing to a 'main healer' will be a support heavy spec.
- Thats not to say that support specs aren't very useful, but they focus more around spreading helpful buffs, then in keeping everyone's health up.
Overall I would suggest giving the game a shot anyway. The big appeal of GW2 (besides the amount of content it has), is that it's doing things differently. This means treating it like a new game, and not a reskin of the game you just left. If you give it a chance, and actually try out classes (especially ones you think you might not like), I think you'll be surprised.
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
In my experience, the trinity doesnt add complexion to the system, it takes the complexity away from the game in that only the tank gets aggro (most of the time) the sole job of the dps is deal damage (some times CC/interrupt, but dps being the main factor) and the healers have to heal (having no alteration as far as I can remember). This is the main reason the trinity gets boring after a while, it is a stale game type, with only little gimmicks changing gameplay. The main components on fights being the tanks and the healers, without whom the party wipes.
GW2 forces you into a race against time from beginning to end, but not because of some artificial enrage timer, because your party WILL eventually die if the opponents are not dead, their damage output is THAT BIG.
In GW2 the death of a single member of the party sets you way back in the dps race against the mobs/boss, leading to eventual wipe (note that the death I am refrerring to is actual death, not downed state since the former can be remedied rather easily). Every member you lose or is downed means you just lost two men in the fight, one to ress on laying down and if ever the mobs decide to target the guy helping the man down all hell can break lose.
I isn't about dps meters, but staying alive, every man for himself in a sense that other players can't keep you alive like in trinity games, the game is way more unforgiving about errors.
What I think the dungeons have been badly designed, for is allowing the warping back to some point of the dung and running back to the fight, since most fights dont lock rooms out, I would rather have different tries than a single one with over 20 deaths for every player (I remember defeating the spider mini-boss like this once, pulling her near the respawn point and ressing till we she was eventually dead). Then again, this might be a beta thing.
1. Sounds like no one can come to an agreement about the definition of the trinity. So that needs to really be cleared up, what IS the trinity, not popular website opinions but for real, break it down mathematically to it's core elitiestjerk style.
2. I haven't seen anyone posting top difficulty high level content in GW2, any links?
3. If the same mechanics of the trinity are still in play is it truly broken or just flexible?
4. Lets be real about difficulty. Even in WOW where the dungeons and raids are supposedly easy I don't see people having it on farm until quite some time after. Not all of you here are server firsts or seconds or even 20ths. Waitin on tankspot to tell you how to do the fight an complete it 3-8months later talkin about easy gtfo.
5. If the trinity has been broken, then...great right? No more waiting in Queue for tanks and heals? eer no Queue but, you know what I mean, trade spam, whatever.
Side note: I'm personally sick of watching health bars and mana bars as a tank or healer or support dps or, or, or. I really don't wanna have a defined role, at least, I want to be able to define it myself. In the end I feel pigeonholed by GW2 just as much as the rest of'em so I'm gonna go back to reading books until Dawnguard is out for PC, or is it already?
I don't know if it was just poor communication or a misunderstanding of how GW2 works, but I liked how they all started opening coffins at once, possibly thinking "Since our classes can do everything, this should work out fine". lol
I like how people claiming "holy trinity is not dead because you still have to do damade, to do healing and to tank mobs"
Well duh of course.
But the "holy trinity" is that specialization system where ONE character tank, ONE character heals and the others dps.
And the healer does healing and only healing alone. Same the tank.
Yeah they can do dps from time to time but they are so specialized that the dps done is negligible and just for show.
Back in the day when i played rpg we NEVER bothered to check if we had a "tank" or a "healer" to clear content. When i play d&d with my friends i don't say "Oh this evening Bob is missing and he is the tank... we have to give up playing" instead we just play with whoever it's available.
How many times do i have to read on forums
"well our tank just unsubscribed and as a result the healer did. I really wanted to play the game but since i'm just a dps i can't really stay alone"
or
"i have to wait for 2 hours to enter the instance because i can't find a freaking tank!"
When your party is completely dependant on one single person something is wrong.
No, i really won't miss the holy trinity. I'm glad Gw2 killed it for good.
GW2 has a trinity thats been admitted by Arena Net, the difference is its not the "Holy Trinity" Tanking,Healing,DPS.
GW2's trinity is Damage Control and Support, the difference is you can trade off one against the other in GW2 you can go with all damage characters or a group more focused on support/mitigation but you make the trade off against the other eletements.
Why the holy trinity is broken is simply down to 2 things
No agro/threat - The battle is not controlled by a central "tank" holding onto enemies
Active combat systems - Dodge and true projectiles, both requiring movement and positioning.
The video (not by arena net) is a rubbish example of GW2 and how the system works.
Throw an illusionary greatsword that bounces between targets, damaging enemies and giving might to allies. It creates a clone at it's [sic] first target.
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
Here is how it really works, the trinity is not dead. Lets take a WoW raid. Who really needs to know whats going on? The Tank (boss cycles) the healers (when spike damage was coming) and a few DPS classes, to look after adds. 70% of the raid could just follow what and where other players were doing.
With GW2 everyone needs to know when to save their self heals. When they need to lay down their support to help everyone threw hard points. When you need to focus fire to DPS down adds. At any moment it could be your turn to tank for 3-60 seconds. Every class has tools to do that. Everyone has to know their char well because in a dungeon run at any monent the team will be relying on you to be the tank, healer or dps. If you dont you or someone else may die. There is more chances of failing in this game then a WoW system where just the tank and the healer really need to know whats going on.
This is one of the reasons I keep saying the trinity is not dead. Every team member needs to know all 3 roles to be able to do team play. You cant focuse only on one role. In the length of a boss fight you need to be able to play all 3 areas of your char well. If you suck at one of them, just like any chain, a team is only as strong as its weakest link.
I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.
Last time I'll explain this lol
If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.
*sigh*
As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.
The trinity was gone before it was created... Ultima Online had no trinity at all, and still doesn't today... While the system is old there has been no real development on a different way to handle skills, roles, etc... GW2 takes a stab at it... I agree the system is well done, but I think an Everquest/World of Warcraft class style is not present in GW2.
I would say the dedicated roles, aka the holy trinity, is not present in GW2, but they leave enough of it in there for people to understand the new system. Meaning, they included healing for each class, which is unnecessary but I think they put it in so people would be familiar with the transition.
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
Here is how it really works, the trinity is not dead. Lets take a WoW raid. Who really needs to know whats going on? The Tank (boss cycles) the healers (when spike damage was coming) and a few DPS classes, to look after adds. 70% of the raid could just follow what and where other players were doing.
With GW2 everyone needs to know when to save their self heals. When they need to lay down their support to help everyone threw hard points. When you need to focus fire to DPS down adds. At any moment it could be your turn to tank for 3-60 seconds. Every class has tools to do that. Everyone has to know their char well because in a dungeon run at any monent the team will be relying on you to be the tank, healer or dps. If you dont you or someone else may die. There is more chances of failing in this game then a WoW system where just the tank and the healer really need to know whats going on.
This is one of the reasons I keep saying the trinity is not dead. Every team member needs to know all 3 roles to be able to do team play. You cant focuse only on one role. In the length of a boss fight you need to be able to play all 3 areas of your char well. If you suck at one of them, just like any chain, a team is only as strong as its weakest link.
You do realize that what you posted simply makes no sense and contradicts itself, right?
The trinity is about SPECIALIZATION, you can't claim this game has a trinity if you are saying everyone is/has to act like a hybrid...
Sorry to break it to you but it IS dead, in a sense of specialization, having one dedicated healer/tank is the best way to wipe,
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
Here is how it really works, the trinity is not dead. Lets take a WoW raid. Who really needs to know whats going on? The Tank (boss cycles) the healers (when spike damage was coming) and a few DPS classes, to look after adds. 70% of the raid could just follow what and where other players were doing.
With GW2 everyone needs to know when to save their self heals. When they need to lay down their support to help everyone threw hard points. When you need to focus fire to DPS down adds. At any moment it could be your turn to tank for 3-60 seconds. Every class has tools to do that. Everyone has to know their char well because in a dungeon run at any monent the team will be relying on you to be the tank, healer or dps. If you dont you or someone else may die. There is more chances of failing in this game then a WoW system where just the tank and the healer really need to know whats going on.
This is one of the reasons I keep saying the trinity is not dead. Every team member needs to know all 3 roles to be able to do team play. You cant focuse only on one role. In the length of a boss fight you need to be able to play all 3 areas of your char well. If you suck at one of them, just like any chain, a team is only as strong as its weakest link.
You do realize that what you posted simply makes no sense and contradicts itself, right?
The trinity is about SPECIALIZATION, you can't claim this game has a trinity if you are saying everyone is/has to act like a hybrid...
But there is, my Guardian spec I can DPS, Tank in the team like every class but my sustain heal is higher then any other class can do. My wife Elementalist can do Tanking and healing but no class can AoE like she can. This is another reason I dont think the trinity is dead in GW2. There is specilaization. There would need to be a balance added to GW2 where all classes do all the roles equal and they dont. I am intrested to see how ANet handles that come launch. My guess is they will leave it as is. You watch, 6 months from now guilds will be calling for people who play sustain heal guardian specs, Debuff necro specs, Elementalist AoE specs. Why? Because it gives a 3% boost here and a 5% boost there. You may not see it, but the top end guilds have been testing this for months. They have battle plans set up for its in WvW and Dungeons and they rocked both. Not saying 1 person do all the healing or the tanking in the old school trinity set up. Just specialized in what they do best enough to break ahead of the pack.
This is my Guardian build and I am telling you, 2 vs 4 we would win most times. Rocked in dungeons as well. I played all 3 roles but my healing was high enough it made a HUGE difference.
I suppose the most important comment to make (and it might be buried in the 21 pages I didn't have time to read) is that 1 trial is not definitive.
That said, self heals both single target and AoE certainly do make everyone some sort of healer even when not specced and some classes which are 'not tanks' can tank reasonably well.
I don't think the trinity is dead but rather not as much of a necessity. Which is good as you often can't get a 'party' to tackle the local event Hero, or even a short non-instanced dungeon for some quests.
All in all though, a party with at least a specced healer and tank will probably do better for regular runs particularly for guild groups (e.g. non-PUG). (Haven't tinkered with tanks during the BWEs so not sure about their aggro holding mechanics).
Comments
Careful there -
Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is:
Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge.
Your statement says:
You won't wipe as much.
To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge.
I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something.
So take this opportunity to correct me.
In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging.
But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW.
In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
wow .. a full group of dps cleared an instance and 1 shot the last boss on their first time in there? and this is somehow a good thing? really?
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I certainly hope you are right. But it is the opposite of what the other guy said.
I would also say that if you look at the trinity in EQ or VG, it is anything but a 'one tactic fits all' style. Where, WoW, Rift and TOR seemed to be exactly as you stated, I don't think it can be universally applied to all games with the trinity.
How do you provide for a variety of tactics being necessary in the trinity? It's simple. Make aggro something you have to work for or a challenge to get rid of. That's all it takes, and the trinity can provide some of the most challenging battles I've ever played.
My favorite mmo's of all time have utilised the trinity. So have my least favorite.
People keep acting like its the system thats the problem, when in my opinion, it all has to do with implementation.
No matter the system, if it is implemented well, it will be entertaining and challenging.
I'm just not ready to say that fun I had in EQ or VG came from a system that is totally flawed.
I give them points for mixing it up in GW2. But, like others have noted, I think it didn't kill the trinity, I think it just implemented it differently. And I'm glad, someone needed to address the issues with 3 out of 5 players waiting on the other 2 before they could do anything. I'm simply skeptical if it will work well.
And in the current climate of mmos - I think it is odd that people don't understand the skepticism. This isn't the first game to release with visions of Utopia; I think all gamers should identify with those who will believe it only when they see it.
And as a final note, I just have to say, when I write my epic fantasy novel:
I won't have one character who can heal, do damage and take damage all at once. I certainly wouldn't write about a guy who switches from swords to daggers and then to a 2 handed in the same battle. Basically, I am saying that part of what attracts me to the fantasy genre are the 'roles' individuals play. The idea of an armored knight who doesn't rely on magic but rather his brute strength. The leather-clad rogue sneaking in the shadows. The faithful cleric who gains their powers of healing through their faith. I never dream about the leather-clad rogue who can heal himself and take on any foe head to head......that's not a 'role' to play, that's all the 'roles'.
And I am skeptical about taking the 'role' out of rpg. They already took the 'massively' out of mmo. I fear that the loss of 'roles' in roll playing games is actually another brick OUT of the wall. And in a few years time all we will have left is MOGs.
And that's not what I envisioned the future as being.
I wouldn't call the trinity a broken system at all. It can be a lot of fun, and like you I have had tons of fun in trinity games.
That said, there is something that I personally do not like about trinity systems, and that's being forced to specialize into a very narrow niche in order to be successful. I have played a hybrid class in every single trinity game I have ever played, and the reason for this is because I hate being stuck in one role. I always want to have the flexibility to do different thing.
So for me, a game without the trinity is a breath of fresh air. But I do acknowledge that it's not a bad system, and a good game can get a lot of mileage out of it.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Careful there - Since one of the main arguments FOR the trinity is: Assigned roles require more coordination, everyone has to be on, or you wipe. The trinity provides interdependent challenge. Your statement says: You won't wipe as much. To a lot of mmo players this is the crux of the problem. You take away the interdependence, you remove part of the challenge. I really recommend you stay away from, "removal of the trinity makes dungeons easier" defense. Some of us prefer it to have a 'wipe' looming above our head so that success feels like you actually accomplished something. So take this opportunity to correct me. In what way does the GW2 system create MORE challenge in grouping than the trinity?
I haven't done any dungeons in GW2, so I can't really say whether it is more or less challenging. But what I can say is that all the trinity does is force your group to use one tactic (tank and span) for like 98% of encounters. Once you master that tactic, which is pretty easy to be honest, trinity combat really ceases to be difficult. I know I could have fallen asleep while DPSing in several dungeons in WoW. In addition there is no rule that says that if you get rid of the trinity, your team no longer has to work together. All getting rid of the trinity means is that there is no longer ONE tactic that can be used to defeat every encounter. And that potentially makes every encounter more difficult.
I certainly hope you are right. But it is the opposite of what the other guy said. I would also say that if you look at the trinity in EQ or VG, it is anything but a 'one tactic fits all' style. Where, WoW, Rift and TOR seemed to be exactly as you stated, I don't think it can be universally applied to all games with the trinity. How do you provide for a variety of tactics being necessary in the trinity? It's simple. Make aggro something you have to work for or a challenge to get rid of. That's all it takes, and the trinity can provide some of the most challenging battles I've ever played. My favorite mmo's of all time have utilised the trinity. So have my least favorite. People keep acting like its the system thats the problem, when in my opinion, it all has to do with implementation. No matter the system, if it is implemented well, it will be entertaining and challenging. I'm just not ready to say that fun I had in EQ or VG came from a broken system. And in the current climate of mmos - I think it is odd that people don't understand the skepticism. This isn't the first game to release with visions of Utopia; I think all gamers should identify with those who will believe it only when they see it.
I wouldn't call the trinity a broken system at all. It can be a lot of fun, and like you I have had tons of fun in trinity games.
That said, there is something that I personally do not like about trinity systems, and that's being forced to specialize into a very narrow niche in order to be successful. I have played a hybrid class in every single trinity game I have ever played, and the reason for this is because I hate being stuck in one role. I always want to have the flexibility to do different thing.
So for me, a game without the trinity is a breath of fresh air. But I do acknowledge that it's not a bad system, and a good game can get a lot of mileage out of it.
I've rarely found it necessary to be super specialized unless you are on the bleeding edge of progression until the last couple of years. everything is about inflated numbers now. Back in VG and vanilla wow, and my finite exp in EQ/EQ2, I never found it necessary. we had balance druids, ret pallies, and disc priests and did just fine. yes you needed certain specs, but if they had just implemented dual specs early on, we'd probably be looking at a very different genre. so much didn't have to change so drastically. the genre just wasnt ready for the influx of people and reacted poorly to it. and now devs perpetuate it like it's law.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I did Ascalonian Catacombs in BWE2 on a level 32 warrior in story mode and I got my ass kicked, in fact all of us did, at least initially. The mobs, even the trash, hit hard, and the game was unforgiving when you didn't dodge or use damage mitigation. And the traps, we really didn't expect so many traps. We completed it, it took about an hour, and I would rate the experience as a "B". Remember this was BWE2 and there have been changes since then, especially for melee.
I am certain that we would have done better as a guild and using vent, and I think much closer coordination may be necessary for groups to do explorable modes, at least initially.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Not sure if it's been covered, the thread is tl;dr but what about those players who like being the tank or healer? Should they look to a different game?
I have a nasty habit of hitting 'post message' on my rough draft. It goes up, I re-read and make alterations. Typically, this is while someone is responding to me.
So if anyone cares, my edit is a little closer to what I meant.
And I've appreciated your comments Cresin, they are the most level-headed responses I've had about this topic.
I'm going to play GW2 also. I mean, I buy em all, god love me. If this system is implemented well, I will become a believer. For the same reasons, it will be nice to have a breath of fresh air.
However, I'm too old, grizzled and battlehardened to every buy an mmo expecting it will be money well spent. I buy, I like, I grow to dislike, i unsub and uninstall within 3 months.
I still play the same crap I did 5 to 10 years ago in between.
Yeah, there is no designated "tank" or "healing" role.
Some classes/builds are more "tanky" and some have a wider range of group healing skills, but people looking for a traditional class system of tank, healer, dps are not going to find it here.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
The story mode gets a lot easier once you understand it a little better. It does seem insane the first time around, because there's soo much being thrown at you, you don't know what to react to first.
That said, if you thought that was hard, the explorables will punch you in the throat. They are waay harder than the storymodes. And yea, they are going to require you at least communicate with your team (not necessarily in vent, but at least spell out a plan in /party before you start the fight).
This is a somewhat tricky issue.
There are some specs that will feel more 'tanky' or more 'heal-heavy', but they won't be the same as you'd be used to in a trinity game.
If you are used to being the main tank, you may enjoy the guardian. They are pretty fun too, and are really good at support / mitigating damage. You won't have a taunt, or any sort of threat mechanic, though; so you will have to tank by physically getting in the way, and running when you start to take too much dmg.
Healers have it a bit worse off, tbh. People that are looking for a 'main heal' type class, will probably need to find a new playstyle to enjoy if they really want to try GW2. There are a couple specs that have some healing (water elementalist, and support heavy guardian, or healing shouts spec warrior), but it's going to be nothing like you're used to in trinity-based games. There's just no heals strong enough to heal through the damage output in this game. This game is mostly about avoiding damage, rather than healing through it, so the closest thing to a 'main healer' will be a support heavy spec.
- Thats not to say that support specs aren't very useful, but they focus more around spreading helpful buffs, then in keeping everyone's health up.
Overall I would suggest giving the game a shot anyway. The big appeal of GW2 (besides the amount of content it has), is that it's doing things differently. This means treating it like a new game, and not a reskin of the game you just left. If you give it a chance, and actually try out classes (especially ones you think you might not like), I think you'll be surprised.
really? No one?
In my experience, the trinity doesnt add complexion to the system, it takes the complexity away from the game in that only the tank gets aggro (most of the time) the sole job of the dps is deal damage (some times CC/interrupt, but dps being the main factor) and the healers have to heal (having no alteration as far as I can remember). This is the main reason the trinity gets boring after a while, it is a stale game type, with only little gimmicks changing gameplay. The main components on fights being the tanks and the healers, without whom the party wipes.
GW2 forces you into a race against time from beginning to end, but not because of some artificial enrage timer, because your party WILL eventually die if the opponents are not dead, their damage output is THAT BIG.
In GW2 the death of a single member of the party sets you way back in the dps race against the mobs/boss, leading to eventual wipe (note that the death I am refrerring to is actual death, not downed state since the former can be remedied rather easily). Every member you lose or is downed means you just lost two men in the fight, one to ress on laying down and if ever the mobs decide to target the guy helping the man down all hell can break lose.
I isn't about dps meters, but staying alive, every man for himself in a sense that other players can't keep you alive like in trinity games, the game is way more unforgiving about errors.
What I think the dungeons have been badly designed, for is allowing the warping back to some point of the dung and running back to the fight, since most fights dont lock rooms out, I would rather have different tries than a single one with over 20 deaths for every player (I remember defeating the spider mini-boss like this once, pulling her near the respawn point and ressing till we she was eventually dead). Then again, this might be a beta thing.
1. Sounds like no one can come to an agreement about the definition of the trinity. So that needs to really be cleared up, what IS the trinity, not popular website opinions but for real, break it down mathematically to it's core elitiestjerk style.
2. I haven't seen anyone posting top difficulty high level content in GW2, any links?
3. If the same mechanics of the trinity are still in play is it truly broken or just flexible?
4. Lets be real about difficulty. Even in WOW where the dungeons and raids are supposedly easy I don't see people having it on farm until quite some time after. Not all of you here are server firsts or seconds or even 20ths. Waitin on tankspot to tell you how to do the fight an complete it 3-8months later talkin about easy gtfo.
5. If the trinity has been broken, then...great right? No more waiting in Queue for tanks and heals? eer no Queue but, you know what I mean, trade spam, whatever.
Side note: I'm personally sick of watching health bars and mana bars as a tank or healer or support dps or, or, or. I really don't wanna have a defined role, at least, I want to be able to define it myself. In the end I feel pigeonholed by GW2 just as much as the rest of'em so I'm gonna go back to reading books until Dawnguard is out for PC, or is it already?
I don't know if it was just poor communication or a misunderstanding of how GW2 works, but I liked how they all started opening coffins at once, possibly thinking "Since our classes can do everything, this should work out fine". lol
Silly gamers.
I like how people claiming "holy trinity is not dead because you still have to do damade, to do healing and to tank mobs"
Well duh of course.
But the "holy trinity" is that specialization system where ONE character tank, ONE character heals and the others dps.
And the healer does healing and only healing alone. Same the tank.
Yeah they can do dps from time to time but they are so specialized that the dps done is negligible and just for show.
Back in the day when i played rpg we NEVER bothered to check if we had a "tank" or a "healer" to clear content. When i play d&d with my friends i don't say "Oh this evening Bob is missing and he is the tank... we have to give up playing" instead we just play with whoever it's available.
How many times do i have to read on forums
"well our tank just unsubscribed and as a result the healer did. I really wanted to play the game but since i'm just a dps i can't really stay alone"
or
"i have to wait for 2 hours to enter the instance because i can't find a freaking tank!"
When your party is completely dependant on one single person something is wrong.
No, i really won't miss the holy trinity. I'm glad Gw2 killed it for good.
GW2 has a trinity thats been admitted by Arena Net, the difference is its not the "Holy Trinity" Tanking,Healing,DPS.
GW2's trinity is Damage Control and Support, the difference is you can trade off one against the other in GW2 you can go with all damage characters or a group more focused on support/mitigation but you make the trade off against the other eletements.
Why the holy trinity is broken is simply down to 2 things
Here's how I've been running my mesmer so far in the BWEs.
Weapons, Greatsword and Staff. Let's start with those.
Greatsword
[edit] Staff
Heal yourself. Gain additional health for each active illusion.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Here is how it really works, the trinity is not dead. Lets take a WoW raid. Who really needs to know whats going on? The Tank (boss cycles) the healers (when spike damage was coming) and a few DPS classes, to look after adds. 70% of the raid could just follow what and where other players were doing.
With GW2 everyone needs to know when to save their self heals. When they need to lay down their support to help everyone threw hard points. When you need to focus fire to DPS down adds. At any moment it could be your turn to tank for 3-60 seconds. Every class has tools to do that. Everyone has to know their char well because in a dungeon run at any monent the team will be relying on you to be the tank, healer or dps. If you dont you or someone else may die. There is more chances of failing in this game then a WoW system where just the tank and the healer really need to know whats going on.
This is one of the reasons I keep saying the trinity is not dead. Every team member needs to know all 3 roles to be able to do team play. You cant focuse only on one role. In the length of a boss fight you need to be able to play all 3 areas of your char well. If you suck at one of them, just like any chain, a team is only as strong as its weakest link.
The trinity was gone before it was created... Ultima Online had no trinity at all, and still doesn't today... While the system is old there has been no real development on a different way to handle skills, roles, etc... GW2 takes a stab at it... I agree the system is well done, but I think an Everquest/World of Warcraft class style is not present in GW2.
I would say the dedicated roles, aka the holy trinity, is not present in GW2, but they leave enough of it in there for people to understand the new system. Meaning, they included healing for each class, which is unnecessary but I think they put it in so people would be familiar with the transition.
You do realize that what you posted simply makes no sense and contradicts itself, right?
The trinity is about SPECIALIZATION, you can't claim this game has a trinity if you are saying everyone is/has to act like a hybrid...
I cant believe you guys are still having this discussion.
At 23 pages... I wonder if it will make MMOFTWs spotlight segment?
But there is, my Guardian spec I can DPS, Tank in the team like every class but my sustain heal is higher then any other class can do. My wife Elementalist can do Tanking and healing but no class can AoE like she can. This is another reason I dont think the trinity is dead in GW2. There is specilaization. There would need to be a balance added to GW2 where all classes do all the roles equal and they dont. I am intrested to see how ANet handles that come launch. My guess is they will leave it as is. You watch, 6 months from now guilds will be calling for people who play sustain heal guardian specs, Debuff necro specs, Elementalist AoE specs. Why? Because it gives a 3% boost here and a 5% boost there. You may not see it, but the top end guilds have been testing this for months. They have battle plans set up for its in WvW and Dungeons and they rocked both. Not saying 1 person do all the healing or the tanking in the old school trinity set up. Just specialized in what they do best enough to break ahead of the pack.
This is my Guardian build and I am telling you, 2 vs 4 we would win most times. Rocked in dungeons as well. I played all 3 roles but my healing was high enough it made a HUGE difference.
http://www.gw2builds.org/view/511159/hot_team_defence_mace_shield_spec_w_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcp
EDIT: Its simple, its playing to your strengths. Simple but it works.
I suppose the most important comment to make (and it might be buried in the 21 pages I didn't have time to read) is that 1 trial is not definitive.
That said, self heals both single target and AoE certainly do make everyone some sort of healer even when not specced and some classes which are 'not tanks' can tank reasonably well.
I don't think the trinity is dead but rather not as much of a necessity. Which is good as you often can't get a 'party' to tackle the local event Hero, or even a short non-instanced dungeon for some quests.
All in all though, a party with at least a specced healer and tank will probably do better for regular runs particularly for guild groups (e.g. non-PUG). (Haven't tinkered with tanks during the BWEs so not sure about their aggro holding mechanics).