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The trinity broken (video)

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  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

    Last time I'll explain this lol

    If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

    *sigh*

    Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

    Can everone Tank? Sure

    Can everyone Heal? Sure

    Can everyone DPS? Sure

    Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

    NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

    You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

    I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

     

    Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

     

    At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

    Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea.  It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts.  Even UO!  Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.

    Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition.  If you don't believe me...check out these sites:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php?print=1

    http://keithengel.hubpages.com/hub/Cause-of-MMO-Stagnation-The-Holy-Trinity-of-the-MMO

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5557

    http://surlygamer.net/2012/04/22/mmo-evolution-life-after-the-holy-trinity/

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/holy-trinity-outdated/

    When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.

    Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.

    No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not  cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content. 

    GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.

    I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do. 

    Your analogy makes no sense.

    I award you no points.

    And may god have mercy on your soul :).

    Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO.  Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.

    Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game.  Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC.  You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro.  If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

     Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game?  I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.

    What Marvel vs. Capcom?  You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.

    This is what I'm saying.  Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.

    Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob."  You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive.  It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.

    If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead! 

     So Halo is a trinity game?

    In Halo...

    You have to duck behind cover and heal your shield or you cannot finish content.

    You have to inflict damage on the covenant or you cannot finish content.

    You have to absorb damage with your shield or you cannot finish content.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control?

     In Nanfoodle world, getting hit = tanking.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • winterwinter Member UncommonPosts: 2,281

       Humm really have to wonder if this video shows the standard for GW2. Basically this video shows any team roughly with any skills can simply zerg at least this one dungeon. The guy in the video states that the teams under geared, has no experience with the dungeon, and in fact isn't working as a team at all as at least in the beginning each player is spawning and pulling multiple adds instead of working together on one spawn/add at a time.

      This will work well for the players that just want to do all content and zerg pug without ever having to even talk to fellow players, but i expect more hardcore players will start to complain about the easyness this video implies of the games dungeons

  • uohaloranuohaloran Member Posts: 811

    I don't think they'ved achieved anything, really.  I'm not miffed about them keeping the holy trinity, either.

    If you're still using a level based system, you might as well go with what works.

  • kantseemekantseeme Member Posts: 709
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I'm going to have to get my crayons out and starting creating a paint by numbers...

    Just because someone doesent share the same view points that you do doesent mean there stupid or uneducated.

     

     

  • DJJazzyDJJazzy Member UncommonPosts: 2,053
    Originally posted by winter

       Humm really have to wonder if this video shows the standard for GW2. Basically this video shows any team roughly with any skills can simply zerg at least this one dungeon. The guy in the video states that the teams under geared, has no experience with the dungeon, and in fact isn't working as a team at all as at least in the beginning each player is spawning and pulling multiple adds instead of working together on one spawn/add at a time.

      This will work well for the players that just want to do all content and zerg pug without ever having to even talk to fellow players, but i expect more hardcore players will start to complain about the easyness this video implies of the games dungeons

    It is the storymode version of the dungeon.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    I'm going to have to get my crayons out and starting creating a paint by numbers...

    Just because someone doesent share the same view points that you do doesent mean there stupid or uneducated.

     

     

     I don't want to imply anyone is stupid...but I am going to say that your viewpoints disagree with just about every single publication on the holy trinity I found.

    So when I hear you say that your have a different "viewpoint" of the holy trinity...it's like someone telling me that their "viewpoint" of the word "dog" is a cold blooded lizard.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • DfixDfix Member UncommonPosts: 238
    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.

    Actually, they aren't there in GW2. Why? Because no class is dedicated to healing or damage mitigation.

    Show me the dedicated healer in GW2. I'd love to see it.

    I was a great dedicated healer in beta pvp with my elementalist... try again...

    Oh really?

    Please, tell us more about this class that is supposedly dedicated towards just healing.

    And here I was thinking that they only have a couple small heals that barely healed a fraction of someone's life. Seriously, I'd love to hear about your epic dedicated healing from the elementalist class! Do you have any videos of this, I'd love seeing you dominating sPvP on your dedicated healer.


    I'm sorry but between combos and the elementalist kit there was no small healing, there was literally making it impossible for teams to do anything when a healer focused ele was in the area... no amount of cc or coordinated burst damage even came close to the rate of healing that can be set up. 

     

    Originally posted by Dfix
    Originally posted by RobertDinh
    Originally posted by Dfix
    Originally posted by RobertDinh

    No the trinity isn't broken, when you are up against easy pve you never had to worry about the trinity in any game. 

    I wish people could contribute to the conversation instead of blurting out this kind of garbage.

    Thank you for making yourself look like a complete tool by having no idea what you're talking about.

     

    I do believe they do a good job with doing away with the trinity. On one hand I'm glad to see it go, on the other I will probably still play a game with it beause I do enjoy it.

    Garbage?  You are trying to argue that they did away with the trinity, when in reality all they did was make a game so easy that you could do whatever you wanted and faceroll through it. 

     

    It would be like someone saying the trinity wasn't required in WoW because they could 5dps a 5man dungeon. 


    I've played FFXI for 8 years now. I know a challenge when I see it. I have also played through Catacombs with Devs in the beta. You on the other hand have probably done neither. I don't think I really need to say anymore.

    Are you really trying to use ffxi as your credibility... and then making gross assumptions towards a much more experienced gamer? 

     

    If you think gw2 pve is challenging you've already discredited yourself, because any top progression pver from any of the great mmos goes through it like a hot knife through butter. 

    The fact that you are clueless about the difficulty level of PvE bosses in FFXI ( I should say was, they are not hard since 99 cap) shows your lack of experience as a MMO player.

    You seem to like to talk a lot about a game you have never played. Not to mention not backing up any of your claims of the "hardcore PvE" games you have played. Please post them for a good laugh.

    Vivik-Cerberus
    image
  • GorillaGorilla Member UncommonPosts: 2,234
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

    Last time I'll explain this lol

    If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

    *sigh*

    As I have told you before I dont agree. Trinity = damage mitigation, healing and DPS. All 3 roles are in GW2. IF the trinity was dead you would need to remove at least one of the three roles from the game. All three roles are very much alive in GW2 its just played different. Trinity is very much alive and well in GW2, its just done in a way you dont need to LFG. Its well done and smart and I enjoy it but no MMO have given us the death to the trinity yet.

    You still don't get it.

    Every player can heal themselves and others, every player can mitigate damage, and every player can DPS - all with the same build and within the course of the same fight/encounter.

    NO TRINITY.

    Do you need a dedicated tank in GW2? No.

    Do you need a dedicated support/healer? No.

    Do you need dedicated DPS? Well, kind of, as stuff still needs to die and die well/often...

    NO TRINITY.

    lol I can't believe people still fight this?! What gives?

     

    He seems to be being deliberately obtuse. Hard to reason with someon that is so determined to ignore what has been explained by person after person. It's nothing to do with what the roles are and everything to do with them being DEDICATED. The holy spirit dosen't say mid salvation 'sod this I'm going to be the father for a bit'.
  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

     That's still controlling aggro ;).

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

     Yeah, good point.  There is nothing like AoE taunt in GW2.  The best you can do is try to immobilize or snare the mobs...but that's not really what I would call tanking.

    And even if you could get all the mobs to hit you and no one else, they would make mince meat of you in a minute.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

     Yeah, good point.  There is nothing like AoE taunt in GW2.  The best you can do is try to immobilize or snare the mobs...but that's not really what I would call tanking.

    And even if you could get all the mobs to hit you and no one else, they would make mince meat of you in a minute.

    exactly and to me I see this as having no real tank role in the game at all hence no trinity at all.. and healer you could make an argument for as well although you have direct heals so it's harder argument ot make.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSExAYbROdw - Ascalon Catacombs explorable mode (one path anyway) run with commentary on how we did it.  We explain a bit on how you tank, particularly the last boss where there are plenty of multiple add situations.

    Basically, it's all about positioning.

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

  • GorillaGorilla Member UncommonPosts: 2,234
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    No I wont. I get how GW2 works. I have almost 200hr play time in it. If you read my posts you will see I know very well no one char will be the healer, tank or DPS. Im just saying all 3 roles are there. How is the trinity dead if its in the game. I also bring up the point that some classes do parts of the 3 roles better then other classes. If thats the case how is the trinity dead? 

    At the most basic level, the trinity is dead for a couple reasons.

     

    1. There is no tank. You cannot taunt a boss and hold its attention through all the damage it receives. You cannot absorb the damage it gives.

    2. There are no healers. You cannot target an ally and cast heals on them that are greater than the incoming potential damage (see Tank above). You can only offer splash healing and buffs, not enough for someone attempting to tank to survive.

    3. There are no pure anything. Every weapon has a mix of damage, control and support aspects across the skills. You need to know the skills and when to use them.

     

    At this most basic level, the trinity is dead. Of course, it goes much deeper. There are no set roles in GW2 at all.

    Im gona stop here. I get why many of you say the trinity is dead. No one class will ever play the tank and be the only tank in the team. Same with healing and DPS. All I am saying is I dont think the trinity is dead because all classes will be doing all 3 roles. Fighting a boss the team will take turns doing all 3 roles. For me, thats why I dont think the trinity is dead. All 3 roles are in the game and at any given time fighting a boss they will all be in play. For the trinity to be dead IMO would have to have 1 of 2 things happen.

    1. Remove healing or tanking all together. No one does it.

    2. Everyone does all 3 roles equally. 

    Because #2 is not true in GW2, when poop hits the fan or you have a raid in WvW going on. People are going to looking to classes to do what they do best so we win. You dont think guilds wont be looking for people to play Sheild Guardians and pasive heal Guardians for healing and mitigation? Their HoT is better then any class. If a class does something 3-5% better then guilds will look for that edge. 3% here, 1% here, 5% over here and now you have a huge advantage. Right now min maxing is hard to do with a new game. Give it 6 months and it will be set in stone unless ANet changes what they have built now. 

     

    The issue is more of a theological one than to do with Your view of GW 2 or games in general. Perhaps better to leave aside 'labels', the discussion on whether trying to focus on a particular role is viable at higher difficulty levels is much more interesting :)
  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Magnum2103
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
     

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

    how does one tank with no aggro control? 

    Get the mob's attention by getting close to it and hitting it while the people that do not want "aggro" move away from it.

    but with no skills to pull  or taunt what happens when you have multiple mobs all over the place? how does one hold aggro then?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSExAYbROdw - Ascalon Catacombs explorable mode (one path anyway) run with commentary on how we did it.  We explain a bit on how you tank, particularly the last boss where there are plenty of multiple add situations.

    Basically, it's all about positioning.

    i guess you could see that as a perception of tanking but nothing like trinity tanking. Still its more just support and dps. Support being CC, shields, and  off heals. It plays out more like a form of CC than tanking.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • MadKingMadKing Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Originally posted by Rivalen

    Alot of ridiculous posts.

    Holy trinity = STATIC ROLES.

     

    You can debate that will be roles but they won't be static, this gameplay won't be nothing like any game with the trinity.

    Agreed.

     

    Some people fear change, others welcome it. I for one like what GW2 is doing.

  • MeowheadMeowhead Member UncommonPosts: 3,716
    Originally posted by Creslin321

     So Halo is a trinity game?

    In Halo...

    You have to duck behind cover and heal your shield or you cannot finish content.

    You have to inflict damage on the covenant or you cannot finish content.

    You have to absorb damage with your shield or you cannot finish content.

     Hahahahahaha... oh god, I was looking for his original post so I could comment using FPS games (Like Battlefield), and I see you beat me to it!  Good job.  :)

  • austriacusaustriacus Member UncommonPosts: 618
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

    Last time I'll explain this lol

    If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

    *sigh*

    Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

    Can everone Tank? Sure

    Can everyone Heal? Sure

    Can everyone DPS? Sure

    Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

    NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

    You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

    I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

     

    Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

     

    At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

    Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea.  It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts.  Even UO!  Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.

    Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition.  If you don't believe me...check out these sites:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php?print=1

    http://keithengel.hubpages.com/hub/Cause-of-MMO-Stagnation-The-Holy-Trinity-of-the-MMO

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5557

    http://surlygamer.net/2012/04/22/mmo-evolution-life-after-the-holy-trinity/

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/holy-trinity-outdated/

    When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.

    Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.

    No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not  cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content. 

    GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.

    I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do. 

    Your analogy makes no sense.

    I award you no points.

    And may god have mercy on your soul :).

    Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO.  Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.

    Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game.  Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC.  You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro.  If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

     Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game?  I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.

    What Marvel vs. Capcom?  You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.

    This is what I'm saying.  Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.

    Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob."  You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive.  It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.

    If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead! 

    This is where you are wrong. You dont need healing to do explorable dungeons you need SUPPORT. Last BWE i did explorable dungeons without a guardian that heals or an elementalist.

    Support doesnt come alone in healing there are various ways of doing it.

    Tell your scrubby guild to try it out with 1 warrior 2 thiefs 1 mesmer and 1 engineer.

    None of us used a heal appart from our self heal.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • ignore_meignore_me Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,987

    The trinity is awful. I hope it dies.

    Ok here's the plan: when the fight starts, Fred will call them names and they will all beat on him. Meanwhile Tom kicks them from behind and I administer first aid.

    Thanks EQ for years of this garbage.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Creslin321
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by kantseeme
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    I love this game dont get me wrong but the trinity is far from dead in GW2. Its jusy dressed differently. Everyone take turn tanking, healing and DPSing. All 3 roles are there!!!! Dont be fooled. Its just dressed up in a new package and way more fun then LFG.

    Last time I'll explain this lol

    If everyone is doing all 3 roles at different times throughout the course of a single fight - which they do in GW2 - then there are no "dedicated" roles - which means with no dedicated roles - there is no trinity as trinity = dedicated party roles of tank, heal, dps.

    *sigh*

    Dedicated roles aside. The Trinity is defined as Tank/Healer/DPS.

    Can everone Tank? Sure

    Can everyone Heal? Sure

    Can everyone DPS? Sure

    Doesent mater if everyone can do ALL the rolls at any giving time. The fact remains there IS still a Trinity because there all present in GW2.

    NO NO NO lol you people make me furious lol

    You can't say "dedicated roles aside" because the concept of dedicated roles versus non-dedicated (free form/fluid whatver) is what this is ALL about.

    I sure can say it. Your saying its dead. doesent exist in GW2. ALL those rolls are present in GW2. There for its NOT dead.

     

    Doesent mater if JOE started out the fight dpsing then had to heal KATE then started contol on MOB C then went back to DPS.

     

    At this point in the discussion it doesent mater anymore. Im not here to make you believe my point of view on the subject. Was just stating my views on the subject. Might as well start a dicussion on whos religion is the best.

    Okay, you can try to define "holy trinity" to mean that healing, damage mitigation, and damage exist, but that is a bad idea.  It makes the term completely worthless because EVERY, yes EVERY MMO that involves combat has those concepts.  Even UO!  Heck, even several fighting games, FPS's and RTS's have those roles.

    Second, the definition of holy trinity meaning there are classes that are more or less dedicated to the trinity roles in combat is pretty much the accepted definition.  If you don't believe me...check out these sites:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php?print=1

    http://keithengel.hubpages.com/hub/Cause-of-MMO-Stagnation-The-Holy-Trinity-of-the-MMO

    http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5557

    http://surlygamer.net/2012/04/22/mmo-evolution-life-after-the-holy-trinity/

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/holy-trinity-outdated/

    When you try to redefine to redefine the holy trinity to mean that damage, healing, and mitigation simply exist, then you are not only rendering the term useless, you are also going against the definition that just about everyone else uses for no real reason other than to prove that you're right or something.

    Also...there is already a term for the thing in games that involves damage, mitigation, and healing...it's called combat.

    No it breaks it down to its smile core elements. Lets look at it this way. Dr tells a guys that if he does not stop eating a Mc Donalds he will die. So he stops eating cheap burgers and fries and all the sugar from pop. So he heads down to a high classes restaurant and skips the food the Dr said is killing him and now eats nothing but fine dining. He dies 3 years later. Why? Because it was not  cheap burgers and fries but the food he ate had the same fat content. 

    GW2 may not be WoWs cheap burgers and fries but is still made up of meat and potatoes. Differently proportioned but still the same stuff. If ANet had removed healing I could agree with you. Same with tanking. But the same game mechanics are there, tanking, healing and DPS. Other problem is the classes are not even equal at the same roles. So guild min maxing is going to take place. No longer will they say we need someone to till x,y,z role. They will say what classes can fill them best. Now everyone is healing but we also want a Guardian to be there for that extra boost. Everyone takes turns tanking but we want X class to be there for when he enrages.

    I have been reading the top end guilds forums and they have been testing this out and it works. The trinity is not dead, its just dressed differently. And people will be demanding X class for WvW to play y role more oten then its other 3 it can do. 

    Your analogy makes no sense.

    I award you no points.

    And may god have mercy on your soul :).

    Billy Madison aside....you do realize none of your "tanking" scenarios will work because YOU CAN'T CONTROL AGGRO.  Even if you make a spec that has the best damage mitigation possible, it seriously won't matter when the mob kills your squishyy elementalist who delibaritely specced glass cannon so he could be "DPS" because you couldn't peel the mob off of him.

    Yes you can spec to have more control, yes you can spec to have more DPS or support...but this does NOT make GW2 a trinity game.  Trinity means something VERY SPECIFIC.  You have to have a tank controlling aggro, DPS doing most of the damage, and a healer keeping the tank up and saving DPS if they get aggro.  If you don't have that, it's not a holy trinity game...that simple.

    Who care if there is no aggro control. I never said there was a dedicated tank. Everyone takes turns tanking, so tanking is still in the game. Everyone heals, so healing is still in the game. ANet would need to 1. remove healing or tanking all together for there to be no trinity. or 2 all classes do all the rolls equally and they dont. Trinity is not dead.

     Do you consider Diablo to be a trinity game?  I took turns at taking hits when I played coop in that.

    What Marvel vs. Capcom?  You definitely trade out your fighters to distribute damage in that game as well.

    This is what I'm saying.  Your definition of trinity is so broad that it includes just about ANY game that has combat.

    Also...GW2's group combat isn't like "Okay, I took three hits, your turn Bob."  You just fight, and when the mob targets you, you try to survive.  It's not like you can control aggro to "take turns" tanking in any kind of regimented way.

    If the mechanic is there, then its a trinity game. To finish content, if you NEED healing, tanking and DPS to complete content, you are a trinity game. Need is the key word there. Not have, but need. There is not a lick of content in GW2 you can do without the trinity. There is no dedicated role for anyone class I agree but the mechanic is there and is needed to be filled to finish content. Other games can have heals, and damage mitigation and not be a trinity game as its not required in a balance of all 3 roles persent to finish content. With GW2 it is and thats where it becomes a trinity game. You need all 3 roles to be working between everyone teamed up to get the job done. Its packaged differently and I love it but the trinity is not dead! 

    Ok, dude.  Listen.  

    You have to see that you're just making up your own definition of the "holy trinity," then saying GW2 has that.  Everyone gladly agrees that damage dealing, healing and damage mitigation exists in GW2.  Nobody disputes that.   But as several people have pointed out, this is simply NOT the definition of the Trinity in MMOs as it was intended to be used.  You can say otherwise all you want, but you'd just be wrong.  It's not a matter of opinion.  It simply is what it is.

    Every MMO ever has had damage (the removal of enemy hit points), healing (the restoration of ally hit points) and some form of damage avoidance/mitigation.  And every MMO that will ever be created hereafter will continue to have these 3 features.  This is called combat.  

    If "Holy Trinity" was only invented as a term to describe what every single game ever has, what would the point of the term have been?  What was it's use supposed to be?  It would be an utterly pointless, worhtless term.  It doesn't distinguish anything from anything else.  

    No.  Instead, the term "Holy Trinity," like ALL terms, was invented precisely to make a distinction between one form of MMO combat and another--namely games like WoW, where players are almost always locked within one of those 3 static roles (dps, healer, tank) throughout the course of an entire encounter or raid, compared to a wave of newer games that have gradually begun to allow for greater flexibility of these roles.  From Warhammer Online's Archemage, to Rift's spec-swapping soul system, to GW2's utter abolishment of mono-role spec possiblities.  

    There IS a difference between what these games try to do compared to traditional WoW combat.  And that difference we have come to call a departure from the holy trinity.  

     

  • XzenXzen Member UncommonPosts: 2,607
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by Xzen
     

    The people that want to lose aggro pull it to some one else then dodge away as just one example. You could also knockdown or criple the mob so that it goes to the next closest target.

    sounds like playing the CC game not tanking though

    A taunt is a CC ability. All you're doing is managing aggro. It's done very differently (better IMO) in this game but it's still there.

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