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The trinity broken (video)

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  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    *snip*

    IMO anything that can mitigate damage on that scale, your tanking (EDIT: I see this build as 33% tank, heal and dps). Really reminded me of my Shockadin pally in WoW. Hard to kill and none stop DPS when needed. I used that build mostly for sPvP and sometimes in WvW. 

    I mainly used this one for PvE and sometimes WvW.

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/511159/hot_team_defence_mace_shield_spec_w_video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcp

    This one was also fun for sPvP/WvW/PvE solo. 

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/510091/stay_here_as_i_light_you_on_fire_aoe_dps_w_video

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmBz4oK5lhg

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ijtLULRIc

    Thats what I suspected. The PvE build you linked looks like a good support build. Would you qualify that as mainly Tank or Healing? a mix of both?

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,277
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    *snip*

    IMO anything that can mitigate damage on that scale, your tanking (EDIT: I see this build as 33% tank, heal and dps). Really reminded me of my Shockadin pally in WoW. Hard to kill and none stop DPS when needed. I used that build mostly for sPvP and sometimes in WvW. 

    I mainly used this one for PvE and sometimes WvW.

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/511159/hot_team_defence_mace_shield_spec_w_video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wsbavY2Q2M&feature=plcp

    This one was also fun for sPvP/WvW/PvE solo. 

    http://www.gw2builds.org/view/510091/stay_here_as_i_light_you_on_fire_aoe_dps_w_video

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmBz4oK5lhg

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ijtLULRIc

    Thats what I suspected. The PvE build you linked looks like a good support build. Would you qualify that as mainly Tank or Healing? a mix of both?

    50% support healing 25% damage mitagation and 25% DPS.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Hahah still going huh?

    Well as one of the original arguers on this thread, let me try to shed some light on things and maybe help everyone understand the different viewpoints.  Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but this is what I think...

    Nanfoodle pretty much admits that GW2 does not have the holy trinity.  All he is arguing is that GW2 has..."a trinity."  Which is technically correct, and everyone will agree that GW2 does have "the trinity" of damage, support, and control.  The devs even directly say this.  And I think that no one would dispute this (feel free to dispute if you want).

    The problem here is that the "no trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 does not have the HOLY TRINITY, they are not trying to say that GW2 does not have the trinity of damage, support and control.  And the "yes trinity" folks are trying to say that GW2 has the trinity of damage, support and control, but it doesn't really have the holy trinity.

    So basically, as I see it, both sides are saying the exact same thing and just yelling at each other.

    Good day gents :).

    I'd dispute it a bit, only because when you have the word "trinity" in there it gives the illusion that players can take those aspects as roles. I dispute that there are actual roles at all, based on the fact that all players have all aspects simultaneously and it's about using the right skills at the right time, not what your "role" is.

    I'm not disputing that using the word trinity to describe damage/support/control is confusing...but ANet did it, not me ;).  This is directly from the horse's mouth:

    You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way. If that sounds like the kind of combat you are interested in, Guild Wars 2 is going to be a great place for you and your friends to fight together for many years to come.

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

    The thing is...ANet doesn't have the hang up with the word "trinity" that we all do.  They basically say in that article that GW2 doesn't have the holy trinity, but it does have a "trinity" int he sense that there are three categories of skills, damage, support, and control.

    Personally...I think this is too broad a definition since it encompass almost every RPG ever to exist...but that's neither here nor there.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

    Does Gamebreaker.tv represent the views of every gamer who will be playing GW2 next month?

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

    Does Gamebreaker.tv represent the views of every gamer who will be playing GW2 next month?

    Certainly not. But they do offer more to base an opinion on that you thus far. They tested a central concept of the game and then posted it for us. Your distaste of the system because of an "illusion of choice" is far less compelling.

  • itgrowlsitgrowls Member Posts: 2,951
    Originally posted by Aerowyn
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/breaking-the-trinity/

     

    They beat part of the ascalon catacombs with a full DPS team.

    Did they break the trinnity or would this have been easier with a full team of support pecced players?

    two things wrong with his thinking. He keeps saying he is having a gear issue. That doesn't exist in GW2, so he's definitely misinforming the public watching his show.

    the second thing is simple, he did no dodging the entire time he was being attacked by anything. Seriously, Lrn2play it's not that hard to hit a dodge button.

    Oh and just love how he's like "well this isn't easy" uhm no it's not and that's the point. for too long people have just had everything handed to them in dungeons, it's not going to be easy unless you want to play WoW or SWTOR which are "push button receive gear" dungeons.

    not true the gear difference between say level 5 and level 80 is still pretty big.. In WvWvW you get the boost up in HP so you don't get destroyed which takes a lot of the gear imbalances away but in PVE if you go into a level 30 dungeon with level 1 gear expect to get waisted.

    it is true in the sense that there is not improved gear for that same level when you start that dungeon one doesn't inspect your gear to make sure you can go in there say like in a heroic in WoW. So therefore saying that it's a gear issue is false. Like the dungeons in any WOW centric end game where most dungeons require a gear factor GW2 does not because it scales. So even if you have level 60 gear you'll still be playing at level 30 (or whatever the level is for that dungeon i thought it was 30).

    he is misinforming the public by holding onto old notions that don't exist in this game by suggesting that one must have a level of gear to run this dungeon suggesting one must farm or craft it otherwise you shouldn't be in there. It's the same thing concerning DPS, Anet is trying to get away from all that and they have designed their game to function without that. You don't have to have specific gear to go there and succeed without dying every minute, it just takes coordination and skill rather then gear and the video on how to dance around the boss's fire.

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    This really doesn't prove anything. It's the first accessible dungeon on normal mode. I've beaten plenty of dungeons in WoW and other similar games without a tank or healer. So I suppose that means those games aren't designed with a holy trinity in mind. If people really think there won't be required builds at end game to complete hard mode dungeons then they're kidding themselves. It might not be the holy trinity but there will be LF(class/build).
  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928
    Originally posted by itgrowls
     

    it is true in the sense that there is not improved gear for that same level when you start that dungeon. So therefore it's false. Like the dungeons in any WOW centric end game where most dungeons require a gear factor GW2 does not because it scales. So even if you have level 60 gear you'll still be playing at level 30 (or whatever the level is for that dungeon i thought it was 30).

    he is misinforming the public by holding onto old notions that don't exist in this game.

    how do you know they were wearing level 30+ gear? what if they all had level 20 gear? then they would all be undergeared for the dungeon.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

    Does Gamebreaker.tv represent the views of every gamer who will be playing GW2 next month?

    Certainly not. But they do offer more to base an opinion on that you thus far. They tested a central concept of the game and then posted it for us. Your distaste of the system because of an "illusion of choice" is far less compelling.

    The video showed a group of 5 DPS-spec'd classes clearing a GW2 dungeon.  What part of that am I trying to dispute?  

    I am simply saying that when a game is designed around the concept of playing the way you want, more often than not that's going to mean you have less freedom in playing the way you like than if the classes were heavily role-specific.  

    If I enjoy playing healers, I can't just be a healer in GW2.  I don't have that option.  At times I'll do a little bit of tanking, a little bit of DPS, and a little bit of healing.  If all I want to do is heal, instead I am pigeon-holed into a playstyle that doesn't appeal to me.  My class can do all things, but I can't stick to one aspect.  I have to master all three if I want to be a competent player.  That is why it's an illusion of choice.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

    Does Gamebreaker.tv represent the views of every gamer who will be playing GW2 next month?

    Certainly not. But they do offer more to base an opinion on that you thus far. They tested a central concept of the game and then posted it for us. Your distaste of the system because of an "illusion of choice" is far less compelling.

    The video showed a group of 5 DPS-spec'd classes clearing a GW2 dungeon.  What part of that am I trying to dispute?  

    I am simply saying that when a game is designed around the concept of playing the way you want, more often than not that's going to mean you have less freedom in playing the way you like than if the classes were heavily role-specific.  

    If I enjoy playing healers, I can't just be a healer in GW2.  I don't have that option.  At times I'll do a little bit of tanking, a little bit of DPS, and a little bit of healing.  If all I want to do is heal, instead I am pigeon-holed into a playstyle that doesn't appeal to me.  My class can do all things, but I can't stick to one aspect.  I have to master all three if I want to be a competent player.  That is why it's an illusion of choice.

    It's not an illusion of choice...it just doesn't not offer you EVERY possible choice you can imagine :).  Yes, you cannot be a pure healer and sit in the background looking at health bars.  Yes, you will always be doing some amount of DPS with whatever build you choose.

    That said, there is a GREAT amount of choice in what kind of build you create, and how it plays.  Much more, IMO, than the traditional "you are a healer, you are the tank" setup of the trinity.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    You really think there will be a lot of viable options for hardmode dungeons in comparison to your standard trinity MMO? I don't. I'll bet there's around 4 or 5 acceptable builds per class give and take a little tweaking. That's the norm in most trinity games. I think people are over hyping this aspect of GW2. Want proof? Look at sPvP in just the short time we've been able to play. Builds matter big time. You want to be on a pro team then you need a pro build. There will always be a best way of doing something when you design a game around talent trees, traits, blah blah. Builds make a HUGE difference in GW2.
  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Originally posted by Purgatus
    Originally posted by SuperXero89

    For all the talk about how easy modern MMOs have become, tanking and healing are perhaps the only roles that have actually become more difficult over the years.  The thing is people don't play tanks/healers because they don't want the responsibility.  I don't think the best answer to the problem is giving every class the skills to tank, heal, and do damage.  Like in Rift, it's an illusion of choice because the people that don't want any part of a certain playstyle now have it forced upon them.

    The video for the thread you just posted in claims otherwise......

    Does Gamebreaker.tv represent the views of every gamer who will be playing GW2 next month?

    Certainly not. But they do offer more to base an opinion on that you thus far. They tested a central concept of the game and then posted it for us. Your distaste of the system because of an "illusion of choice" is far less compelling.

    The video showed a group of 5 DPS-spec'd classes clearing a GW2 dungeon.  What part of that am I trying to dispute?  

    I am simply saying that when a game is designed around the concept of playing the way you want, more often than not that's going to mean you have less freedom in playing the way you like than if the classes were heavily role-specific.  

    If I enjoy playing healers, I can't just be a healer in GW2.  I don't have that option.  At times I'll do a little bit of tanking, a little bit of DPS, and a little bit of healing.  If all I want to do is heal, instead I am pigeon-holed into a playstyle that doesn't appeal to me.  My class can do all things, but I can't stick to one aspect.  I have to master all three if I want to be a competent player.  That is why it's an illusion of choice.

    You are disputing the fact that they chose to attack the dungeon in the way they wanted. In the way they chose. You insinuate that they were forced into roles they did not want.

    The concept of playing how you WANT prevents you from playing how you LIKE? I am at a loss. Thats just asinine.

    You are quite right in your last statment though. If you like playing a dedicated healer, you can't do that. You should definetly look elsewhere, unless you what to look at why you like healing a little more closely. You may find that those reasons are still there. Also, main tank. If thats what you like, your in trouble, but again, if you look at why you like that role, you might just find something you like in GW2.

     

  • PurgatusPurgatus Member Posts: 342
    Originally posted by drakaena
    You really think there will be a lot of viable options for hardmode dungeons in comparison to your standard trinity MMO? I don't. I'll bet there's around 4 or 5 acceptable builds per class give and take a little tweaking. That's the norm in most trinity games. I think people are over hyping this aspect of GW2. Want proof? Look at sPvP in just the short time we've been able to play. Builds matter big time. You want to be on a pro team then you need a pro build. There will always be a best way of doing something when you design a game around talent trees, traits, blah blah. Builds make a HUGE difference in GW2.

    This is exactly the kind of thought process that is stuck in older MMO tropes, but I suppose there is no way to prove it until launch. I'll be interested to see your opinion of it then.

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    Well its already being proven in PvP. What will make dungeons any different? Of course there will be optimal builds. And if the dungeons are actually challenging then its not far fetched to see how those builds will become a requirement. People don't want to handicap themselves at the expense of being unique.
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by drakaena
    Well its already being proven in PvP. What will make dungeons any different? Of course there will be optimal builds. And if the dungeons are actually challenging then its not far fetched to see how those builds will become a requirement. People don't want to handicap themselves at the expense of being unique.

    In what way is it being proven in PvP?

    Every high lvl PvP match I see has people using different builds from one another. In fact I think I've only ever seen 1 sPvP match in which both teams were using the same builds.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,277

    @ drakaena: If you have been MMOing long enough you know this to be a fact. I have seen many a MMO claim to have broken the cookie cutter builds but in the end gamers min Max till they find what works best in what situation. I agree with you. Each class will get pigeonholed into a set number of builds. I do think GW2 will have more options then most MMOs.

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    You don't think people are already being pigeon holed into taking specific traits and skills in PvP to maximize their potential success? All I did was sPvP for every BWE and the difference is noticeable between the right and wrong builds. Check the forums on guru. Like I said, there's going to be mandatory traits/skills with minimal tweaking. It's the nature of the beast. I don't say this as a knock against GW2. I absolutely love the combat. Best in an MMO I've ever experienced. But I'm also realistic.
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by drakaena
    You don't think people are already being pigeon holed into taking specific traits and skills in PvP to maximize their potential success? All I did was sPvP for every BWE and the difference is noticeable between the right and wrong builds. Check the forums on guru. Like I said, there's going to be mandatory traits/skills with minimal tweaking. It's the nature of the beast. I don't say this as a knock against GW2. I absolutely love the combat. Best in an MMO I've ever experienced. But I'm also realistic.

    While this is true, it's mostly with the elite skills atm. There is room to make classes more versatile for sure, but I don't see how this has anything to do w/ the trinity (or lack there of). It has to do w/ skill balancing.

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    Well if you read my first post in this thread a page back my original point was completely a lowbie dungeon on normal mode doesn't prove a thing. Since I've cleared dungeons in WoW without a healer or tank and it doesn't get anymore trinity than that. I believe GW2 has a different kind of trinity. But in the end you'll still encounter LF( insert specific class/build).
  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by drakaena
    Well if you read my first post in this thread a page back my original point was completely a lowbie dungeon on normal mode doesn't prove a thing. Since I've cleared dungeons in WoW without a healer or tank and it doesn't get anymore trinity than that. I believe GW2 has a different kind of trinity. But in the end you'll still encounter LF( insert specific class/build).

    Sure, but you're going to get that in any game with public grouping. Doesn't really have anything to do with there being a trinity or not. There's actually an entirely separate thread about this topic:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/358924/So-is-it-just-LFG-need-controlsupport-now-instead-of-tankheals.html

  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    I didn't watch the vid so maybe I'm out of my element Donnie... but the title says trinity broken. And I just don't see it that way. So I thought my comment was relevant to the thread. Wasn't trying to hijack it. Carry on :)
  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    One last comment then I'll shaddup. I do like that in GW2 all abilities can effect bosses. Such as stubs, dazed, cripples, and the like. This isn't the case in other MMO's. I think this feature will add a lot more playstyle diversity. Allows for more strategic options.
  • drakaenadrakaena Member UncommonPosts: 506
    stuns* dazes* auto correct hates me
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