GW1 did ot have or need this so why would GW2. in GW1 you just want to the TOA and find ppl there looking to run UW or FOW.
That would be a much better argument if GW1 didn't actually have an LFG system (hit 'P' in-game) that was added due to popular demand, and if GW1 didn't have heroes and henchies so you can, and anyone who was even half decent did, solo just about everything.
Granted, GW1s LFG system is pretty weak and was always of far more use to spammers than anyone really seeking a group, but, honestly, claming GW2 doesn't need one because GW1 didn't have one is not only wrong, but akin to claiming GW2 isn't an MMO because GW1 wasn't.
I mean, seriously, you'd think the rabid hordes would be up on this stuff.
LFG is primarily needed on mmorgs to pull together the trinity, i.e harder to get tanks and healers. Because there is no trinity it is MUCH easier to get a group, so no need for LFG. on top of this you have a much wider open guild framework, so socially this should also aid the process of grouping.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The only thing more predictable than this thread is the inevitable addition of such a tool.
How any competent MMO dev can even consider releasing an MMO in today's market without one is a mystery to me. Especially given the history of the last few major releases.
I mean, it's not like this whole idiotic argument didn't just play out in Rift and ToR or anything,
The whole "LFGs kill the social aspect of MMOs" argument has lost, repeatedly, and it will lose here as diservedly as it has in other games. If it even is the case that LFG systems damage 'communities', whatever the hell is supposed to be meant by that, the number of people that care is microscopic -- if depressingly loud. People just want to play the game, and to most having to stand in town spamming "LFG for XXX dungeon" for an hour doesn't qualify as "playing the game". They don't have 500 real-world friends playing the game, they don't have a guild -- given that the vast bulk of guilds are a sad joke -- competent enough to form groups with, and they don't want to be penalized because someone with rose coloured glasses thinks life was perfect before WoW -- the game that never innovated or created anything, supposedly -- came up with an LFG that actually allowed the average person to see the inside of a dungeon or raid more than once a blue moon.
The "LFGs kills the social aspect" argument did not lose, because it is still true whether a game has a dungeon finder or not. The reason Trion and Bioware decided to add the DF tool is because the loss of the social aspect for THEIR games wasn't as big of a problem as the fact that people couldn't consistently get groups together in a timely fashion. The whole reason people couldn't get groups together in those games has EVERYTHING to do with the game mechanics involved, namely the trinity system.
This isn't a necessary tool for a game where everyone is LF4M dps. It would still add a level of convinence though, and if the DF tool pulled ONLY from the server you are on I'm sure it would still be a welcome addition, it just wouldn't be as necessary to the game as it is in Trinity based MMOs.
In general, I'd prefer not to use WoW's style of dungeon finder.
Now, if we're discussing grouping tools in general, there are several better options that exist in other games (CoX was my personal 'best choice') that can be ripped off wholesale, or serve as a starting point for designing a new one.
In either case, some is better than none. I'll even take a crappy old WoW Meeting Stone (sans Teleport), in preference to nothing.
Obviously, crying about "Community is dying" while also sneering at a tool that makes grouping easier...is a "don't want anything wow ever had" pure reflex, right? At the least it's contradictory.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The "LFGs kills the social aspect" argument did not lose, because it is still true whether a game has a dungeon finder or not. The reason Trion and Bioware decided to add the DF tool is because the loss of the social aspect for THEIR games wasn't as big of a problem as the fact that people couldn't consistently get groups together in a timely fashion.
Which is another way of saying the argument lost. Blame it on the trinity if you want, but it was just as much a problem for heroic questlines that didn't require a trinity group at all.
In non-trinity games (hint: GW2 isn't even remotely close to the first) forming groups has been historically as much a problem as trinity.
My ideal LFG tool would be like the Job Board from Fairy Tail. You "WALK" up to the board in a city or town ( you shouldn't be able to que up for instances standing in a river out in the wilderness. That's silly) and see what job from what place you want and add yourself to a list of people that want to do said job.
After you place your name up on the board, you'll wait for notification that others want to do the same job you want and thus your group begins to form. Once you have the amount of people the job may recommend, ( can do the job with less or more people then recommended) you then "SET OUT" to said job location ( No more of this instant porting shit to these remote locations. Just how lazy are you to not want to travel to your dungeon or quest location).
Now this wouldn't just pertain to dungeons. Could be hunting parties looking for someone's missing kid. Could be a group of people that need to collect blood samples from a certain mob found in the dark reaches of some mountain range guarded but very strong creatures. The possibilities are endless.
Once your job is done you would then have to report to the npc OR player ( that's right i said player) that posted the job for your reward or payment. Why can't players post jobs and give out rewards. Would work well for those that say craft full time and don't have the time to gather resources for themselves and would like someone else's help doin so. Or there looking for a rare object or armor that drops of a mob that they want to get their hands on.
Hell someone could want something as simple as a bed made for their home and you take the job to make it. like i said, endless possibilities. Now at this time your job is complete. You can then opt to sign up for more jobs with the same group if you wish or go your separate ways.
The point to the job boards is to promote social interaction with those that have the same objectives. Talk with your group members, have some fun. interact with the WORLD by having to actually TRAVLE to these locations instead of being instantly transported and taking people out of the world ( believe it or not but seeing a group of people traveling to their location inside the game world DOES bring the world to LIFE!)
This is the game world i would love to play in. Im sick and tired of these CO-OP Lobby "MMOS" You know who you are
Before WoW introduced the automated dungeon finder they had a group and dungeon finder that was exactly like that, just no one used it at all. So I dont think it would work at all, it has been proven it doesnt work cause people just dont bother using it.
WoW has different core structure tho. You have to spend hours on flight paths (before summonign stones), you need a proper class set up ( tank and healer are mandatory) and dungeons are very much based on your gear - crap gear means you wipe no matter what at some encounters.
In GW2 on the other hand you can just port near to the dungeon through Waypoints, your class dsitribution doesn't have that much of an impact as long as people know what they are doing, gear plays slightly lesser factor. It helps, but doesn't limit you if you don't have full Masterwork set up your level.
The thing I dislike about automated LFGs is the fact people simply stop giving a damn. They will leave whenever they feel like it and then even if it matches you with replacement a personw ill go "FFS it's halway through, i needed 1st boss" kind of crap, not to mention you often can end up with people you know are terrible and can't really filter them out.
Neither solution is perfect of course and most likely I will try to stick with guild/friend groups as much as possible. Personally didn't have that much toruble fidning group for Ascalonian Catacombsin beta and while waiting for people I could just do the DEs around since the downscaling still made them profitable.
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by Rivalen You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.
GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...
why?
Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeons
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Personally I don't see a need for a dungeon finder, I can understand that others feel differently and they may find one useful. I'm the kind of player who loves to group with friends/guild-mates etc. Guesting will be available and it shouldn't be a problem to pop over to your world and help you with something. Are folk that frequent here making a mmorpg.com guild? Justa wonderin'
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by kantseemeOriginally posted by Lord.BachusOriginally posted by RivalenYou can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.
GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...why? Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeons
Aye i actually agree with you for once lol.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by RivalenYou can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.
GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...
why?
Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeons
Aye i actually agree with you for once lol.
Now clean up the spelling and typos. Heh.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Svarcanum I'm really against an automated dungeon tool. It completely kills community.
Fortunately, that's not (entirely) what the thread's about.
Or hell, maybe Lord.B was intentionally stacking the 'poll' deck looking for a specific simplistic answer, after all. S'not exactly always easy to tell.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
this is like asking "If there are cars will you use them?" Even better, "If there is a 20% dungeon group buff will ou use it?" Ofcourse eveyone one will.
This is the thing about dungeon finders. They are the least path of resistance. Now if GW2 does not have a global channel, even more so.
You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.
GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...
why?
Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeons
Originally posted by Svarcanum I'm really against an automated dungeon tool. It completely kills community.
I am for any tool that lessens elitism and drama while providing everyone who wants it with an effecient and effective option..
Since dungeons will be random and classes are flexible there is no real need to waste time nitpicking players or classes for the most part, however for those that want to approach it that way nothing would be stopping them from standing outside the dungeon spamming exactly what they are looking for while others who just want to get it done use the finder and move on into the dungeon...
IMHO anet will not be able to avoid this one, they will have to add some form of dungeon group finder...
IMHO anet will not be able to avoid this one, they will have to add some form of dungeon group finder...
What makes you think so? They successfully evaded it for the first eight years.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by dageezaIMHO anet will not be able to avoid this one, they will have to add some form of dungeon group finder...
What makes you think so? They successfully evaded it for the first eight years.
Culture seems to have changed
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by dageezaIMHO anet will not be able to avoid this one, they will have to add some form of dungeon group finder...
What makes you think so? They successfully evaded it for the first eight years.
Culture seems to have changed
That does re-open such questions for more discussion. Doesn't equate to changed minds automagically.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I would use it but I'd rather they just add a completely global LFG channel that everyone automatically joins.
That is and has always been an utterly bad idea. If you have a global chat channel, no matter if you name it LFG or TrollChannel, it will be invaded by all the attention seekers of the game and spammed to death. It happened in every single game which tried that.
What is needed is a global LFG tool that doesn't involved direct chat - then people get a list of others willing to do the same content, and can contact them via /whisper.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
I would use it but I'd rather they just add a completely global LFG channel that everyone automatically joins.
That is and has always been an utterly bad idea. If you have a global chat channel, no matter if you name it LFG or TrollChannel, it will be invaded by all the attention seekers of the game and spammed to death. It happened in every single game which tried that.
What is needed is a global LFG tool that doesn't involved direct chat - then people get a list of others willing to do the same content, and can contact them via /whisper.
/concur
Half of the mmo gamers on the planet have never been exposed to such a thing, however.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
That would be a much better argument if GW1 didn't actually have an LFG system (hit 'P' in-game) that was added due to popular demand, and if GW1 didn't have heroes and henchies so you can, and anyone who was even half decent did, solo just about everything.
Granted, GW1s LFG system is pretty weak and was always of far more use to spammers than anyone really seeking a group, but, honestly, claming GW2 doesn't need one because GW1 didn't have one is not only wrong, but akin to claiming GW2 isn't an MMO because GW1 wasn't.
I mean, seriously, you'd think the rabid hordes would be up on this stuff.
LFG is primarily needed on mmorgs to pull together the trinity, i.e harder to get tanks and healers. Because there is no trinity it is MUCH easier to get a group, so no need for LFG. on top of this you have a much wider open guild framework, so socially this should also aid the process of grouping.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The "LFGs kills the social aspect" argument did not lose, because it is still true whether a game has a dungeon finder or not. The reason Trion and Bioware decided to add the DF tool is because the loss of the social aspect for THEIR games wasn't as big of a problem as the fact that people couldn't consistently get groups together in a timely fashion. The whole reason people couldn't get groups together in those games has EVERYTHING to do with the game mechanics involved, namely the trinity system.
This isn't a necessary tool for a game where everyone is LF4M dps. It would still add a level of convinence though, and if the DF tool pulled ONLY from the server you are on I'm sure it would still be a welcome addition, it just wouldn't be as necessary to the game as it is in Trinity based MMOs.
In general, I'd prefer not to use WoW's style of dungeon finder.
Now, if we're discussing grouping tools in general, there are several better options that exist in other games (CoX was my personal 'best choice') that can be ripped off wholesale, or serve as a starting point for designing a new one.
In either case, some is better than none. I'll even take a crappy old WoW Meeting Stone (sans Teleport), in preference to nothing.
Obviously, crying about "Community is dying" while also sneering at a tool that makes grouping easier...is a "don't want anything wow ever had" pure reflex, right? At the least it's contradictory.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Which is another way of saying the argument lost. Blame it on the trinity if you want, but it was just as much a problem for heroic questlines that didn't require a trinity group at all.
In non-trinity games (hint: GW2 isn't even remotely close to the first) forming groups has been historically as much a problem as trinity.
how?
GW2 roles are flexible so people will be less picky about WHAT class they want in their groups
unlike all the other mmos
people will have friends lists and guilds too
one great feature that both GW1 and GW2 have, that most mmos do not have
you add anyone one your friends list and their whole acct is flagged as a friend
- your friend makes a new alt, and youll see the alts name on your friend list
EQ2 fan sites
My ideal LFG tool would be like the Job Board from Fairy Tail. You "WALK" up to the board in a city or town ( you shouldn't be able to que up for instances standing in a river out in the wilderness. That's silly) and see what job from what place you want and add yourself to a list of people that want to do said job.
After you place your name up on the board, you'll wait for notification that others want to do the same job you want and thus your group begins to form. Once you have the amount of people the job may recommend, ( can do the job with less or more people then recommended) you then "SET OUT" to said job location ( No more of this instant porting shit to these remote locations. Just how lazy are you to not want to travel to your dungeon or quest location).
Now this wouldn't just pertain to dungeons. Could be hunting parties looking for someone's missing kid. Could be a group of people that need to collect blood samples from a certain mob found in the dark reaches of some mountain range guarded but very strong creatures. The possibilities are endless.
Once your job is done you would then have to report to the npc OR player ( that's right i said player) that posted the job for your reward or payment. Why can't players post jobs and give out rewards. Would work well for those that say craft full time and don't have the time to gather resources for themselves and would like someone else's help doin so. Or there looking for a rare object or armor that drops of a mob that they want to get their hands on.
Hell someone could want something as simple as a bed made for their home and you take the job to make it. like i said, endless possibilities. Now at this time your job is complete. You can then opt to sign up for more jobs with the same group if you wish or go your separate ways.
The point to the job boards is to promote social interaction with those that have the same objectives. Talk with your group members, have some fun. interact with the WORLD by having to actually TRAVLE to these locations instead of being instantly transported and taking people out of the world ( believe it or not but seeing a group of people traveling to their location inside the game world DOES bring the world to LIFE!)
This is the game world i would love to play in. Im sick and tired of these CO-OP Lobby "MMOS" You know who you are
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
You don't need it in the traditional sense since there's no need to spam LF tank or LF healer, and you won't see anyone saying DPS LFG X dungeon.
I think they should still have one though, because you'll always have someone looking for someone else to run something.
WoW has different core structure tho. You have to spend hours on flight paths (before summonign stones), you need a proper class set up ( tank and healer are mandatory) and dungeons are very much based on your gear - crap gear means you wipe no matter what at some encounters.
In GW2 on the other hand you can just port near to the dungeon through Waypoints, your class dsitribution doesn't have that much of an impact as long as people know what they are doing, gear plays slightly lesser factor. It helps, but doesn't limit you if you don't have full Masterwork set up your level.
The thing I dislike about automated LFGs is the fact people simply stop giving a damn. They will leave whenever they feel like it and then even if it matches you with replacement a personw ill go "FFS it's halway through, i needed 1st boss" kind of crap, not to mention you often can end up with people you know are terrible and can't really filter them out.
Neither solution is perfect of course and most likely I will try to stick with guild/friend groups as much as possible. Personally didn't have that much toruble fidning group for Ascalonian Catacombsin beta and while waiting for people I could just do the DEs around since the downscaling still made them profitable.
GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...
why?
Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeonsBest MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Personally I don't see a need for a dungeon finder, I can understand that others feel differently and they may find one useful.
I'm the kind of player who loves to group with friends/guild-mates etc.
Guesting will be available and it shouldn't be a problem to pop over to your world and help you with something.
Are folk that frequent here making a mmorpg.com guild?
Justa wonderin'
why?
Because there is no open world grouping required. And to succeed with many of the casuall players that prefer this easy to use grouping methodes. There is almost no interplayer ineraction and communication during the dynamic events, it will be a culture shock for people once actuall communication is required to find groups for the few dungeons
Aye i actually agree with you for once lol.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Now clean up the spelling and typos. Heh.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Fortunately, that's not (entirely) what the thread's about.
Or hell, maybe Lord.B was intentionally stacking the 'poll' deck looking for a specific simplistic answer, after all. S'not exactly always easy to tell.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
this is like asking "If there are cars will you use them?" Even better, "If there is a 20% dungeon group buff will ou use it?" Ofcourse eveyone one will.
This is the thing about dungeon finders. They are the least path of resistance. Now if GW2 does not have a global channel, even more so.
Well atleast you have a reason
I am for any tool that lessens elitism and drama while providing everyone who wants it with an effecient and effective option..
Since dungeons will be random and classes are flexible there is no real need to waste time nitpicking players or classes for the most part, however for those that want to approach it that way nothing would be stopping them from standing outside the dungeon spamming exactly what they are looking for while others who just want to get it done use the finder and move on into the dungeon...
IMHO anet will not be able to avoid this one, they will have to add some form of dungeon group finder...
Playing GW2..
What makes you think so? They successfully evaded it for the first eight years.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I would use it but I'd rather they just add a completely global LFG channel that everyone automatically joins.
Culture seems to have changed
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
That does re-open such questions for more discussion. Doesn't equate to changed minds automagically.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
That is and has always been an utterly bad idea. If you have a global chat channel, no matter if you name it LFG or TrollChannel, it will be invaded by all the attention seekers of the game and spammed to death. It happened in every single game which tried that.
What is needed is a global LFG tool that doesn't involved direct chat - then people get a list of others willing to do the same content, and can contact them via /whisper.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
/concur
Half of the mmo gamers on the planet have never been exposed to such a thing, however.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.