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[Poll] Levels: Yea or nay?
blognorg
Member UncommonPosts: 643
When I refer to levels, I mean in the traidional sense, i.e. you gain a level, get some hit points, magic, stats, etc. I've seen this duscussed a lot, but I havn't noticed a poll for it (not that I've seen, anyway). So, what's your stance on levels? Why?
Comments
as long as the game has RPG style progression it matters little how its done, as long as the method is fun that is.
Godz of War I call Thee
I like the experience of leveling, but I don't like the worlds leveling creates.
I always liked skill based games. Not level based games.
What do you mean?
Do you mean where the game relies on the twitch skill of the player, like an FPS? Or do you mean where your character uses skill advancement instead of a numerical increase after x experience?
Your poll only has one right answer and it would be depends on the game.
I think at the end of the day, no matter how you market it or mask it, games have levels.
For example, TSW, people forming groups ask for QL5 healer, QL10 tank..etc..Sure they may be a large range of skills Tank A has over Tank B, but it's the gear level that is the deciding factor, which means level in itself is just necessary.
In games that were completely skill based , you'd generally require a certain skill or combination of skill levels to defeat an encounter.
A rose by any other name and all that...
Not really, games have progression. Levels are a type of progresion but not all progression is levels. It is like saying that the word Banana and fruit are interchangable, then pointing at an orange and saying "Banana." gaining levels is a type of progression, but not all progression is levels. gaining skill is progression, gaining better equiptment is progression, gaining rep can be progression.
Most every RPG will have progression, but not every RPG's progression will be based on levels, some RPG's your character will gain exp and get stronger though other typse of progression.
I enjoy the illusion of ever-increasing power. However, a game that is focused on levels (character levels or item levels) needs content that is targetted for each level range. This leads to worlds that are broken up into consumable zones that you walk through and then rarely if ever return to. It doesn't feel alive, I don't feel at home. And as the game expands, the focus simply changes to new zones and level becomes more about plot progession than power progression - it leads to situations where you have epic battles with level 50 dragons and demon lords followed by humilating defeats against level 85 mundane wolves.
I still play and enjoy leveling games. But deep down what I really want to see are living worlds, simulations that I can actually immerse myself in, full of new frontiers to explore and settle.
Yup, that about sums it up. Levels are just a convenient, simple, functional mechanic but by no means the only way to do progression systems.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ah. I see. Yeah, I'm not really a fan of leveled zones either. That kind of bleeds into a giant, pending rant I have bottled up, but this isn't really the thread for that. lol
Well, it's kind of an opinion. For some, it doesn't matter how it's done.
The risk in bottling it all up is that one day it will suddenly all spill out in a single giant wall of text. But who am I to talk - you're the one starting threads and starting conversations
Don't care either way.
The use, or absence thereof, is just a feature wankoff these days.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Haha, I was slightly exaggerating. While I was playing WoW, I actually stopped and checked out the wolrd, and it's actually quite good. Part of the problem though is that the topography is diced up to accomodate the lavel brackets; my other issue is that so much focus is taken off of the wolrd itself because of quests. I spent so much of my time just looking at the mini map for highlighted things to click on and a checklist of chores that I didn't really take in the world. One thing I really like about the Elder Scrolls is that it's enjoyable just to wander around and take in the world. My other issue with zones is that once you outlevel them, they're completely wasted space. If you think about it, most games with this structure only offers about 5% of the content at any given time. Either zones are out of your league or they're too low, and therefore useless. Ultimately, I don't think that I'd use levels in a game, but If I did, I wouldn't make the jumps in power such epic proportions. That way the content wouldn't have such a stringent divide, you would have more content available to you at any given time, and it would hold its relevancy longer. That's the gist of it.
Well, the way I definded them when I posed the question, I would say that TSW doesn't have levels. Now, I'm not saying that's THE definition, but for all intents and purposes that's how it is for this thread. RPGs are always going to have some form of progression, it just depends on how far you're willing to go to label something as a level. From what I understand, TSW doesn't have levels in the traditional sense. You don't get more health or better stats after getting x amount of experience. Based on what I know, it kind of seems like it starts out right at WoW endgame; it's more or less focused on gear progression in terms of linear advancement. Since there aren't restrictions based on a numerical level, you end up just getting gear checked like raiding in WoW.
There's a debate on whether or not TSW has lavels what will continue infinitum. But like I said, for the purposes of the poll I identified traditional levels, and I wouldn't stick TSW in that category.
Skill levels, character levels, they're all the same.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
i dont really like the idea of vertical progression at all. i dont like the idea of rewarding people based on how much time they spend on a game -- i think this probably fits with the casual gaming trend as of late.
what matters most ot me is that 10 of my friends and i can all play together in the game whenever we like.
any progression, quest, or itemization system that makes that impossible, impractical, or difficult is a bad system!
If a dev hides the numbers from a player, but the numbers still exist, does the game have levels? I think it does.
If the game has visible stats, and the stats go up from playing, and the stats aren't being driven by gear, then something is driving those stat increases. That would be an indication that levels exist.
edit typo
This is why every MMO should have a mentoring system!
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Progression, in my opinion, is absolutely 100% necessary for an RPG (and subsequently MMORPG, or probably even any MMO). Whether that comes in the form of the characters level, abilities, weapons, skills, or many other things doesnt really matter.
this
levelling is balls
i just want to hop into a game, maybe spend a couple of hours getting skills and some items and then hop right into the action. in terms of stats everyone should be fairly similar. better gear or spells should only give minor bonuses.
example:
a new player : 1k hp and hits for 200
a veteran: 1.2k hp and hits for 250
a veteran should be good because he plays good not because he grinded 4 hours everyday for 1 month for the shiniest gear.
Or a level scaling system.
I hate the whole idea of flat levels, almost every RPG has them but that doesn't mean they are so important, usually they are also immersion breaking. I mean, how can someone become better at lockpicking by killing some kobolds? Also I don't like the whole idea of increasing hit points / mana every time you level, I hate flat bonuses "just because you leveled"
I would prefer a skill based system were training and hard work allows the player to become better at a very specific task, instead of becoming better in everything at the same time. Also, some limits would be nice in this system, no matter how high level a human is, they shouldn't have higher "strength" than say an Ogre or a dragon, it's just silly, unless they have some epic magic power of course. Limits to both physical and mental stats are important so as to keep the player characters both balanced and as natural as possible. Furthermore, increasing a skill to a higher rank should require more points than first purchasing it, that way, the higher your skill rank in one skill, the less versatility (or amount of different skills) you have. But higher skill rank doesn't make older content obsolete, because other aspects of your character will be "lower"
Another thing towards removing the need of levels, is making some features obtainable only by finishing certain tasks, instead of acquiring levels or filling an experience bar. That way flat-leveling becomes less and less important. For example, getting that amazing stealth feature that increases the duration of your hide, might require you to "rank up" in a thieves guild. Or gaining that complex sword & shield technique might require you to find the appropriate trainer to teach it to you. That way, mindless grinding for experience becomes less of an issue, players will have to move around and complete tasks in order to progress their characters, making levels even more irrelevant.
Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums
Progression should use diffrent means and should not create such huge diffrence.
Now:
Level 1 = 100 HP
Level 60 = 20 000 HP
----
Should be
New character = 100 HP
Vet character = 200 HP
-----------------
There is need for progression. Obviosuly there is.
Levels though create too big rift.
Segregate players and segregate content.
Waste of resources and artifical divsion of a world.
Level 25 goblin stronger than level 5 dragon?
SERIOUSLY?