It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
I'm playing the same games everyone else is, I'm just not interested in competition or dickwaving.
PVP means nothing to me......If it was never in any game I ever played again it wouldn't bother me.....To me MMORPGs are about cooperation and working together to overcome difficult things.....PVP tends to be more about killing someone that literally has no chance in the fight due to superior level, skill, or gear (often paid for in a cash shop)........
The problem is that PVP in games like WoW means nothing, and people think that an open world pvp game is just a random ganking like WoW(pvp servers), but they're wrong, because in Lineage 1-2, for example tere is a lot of cooperation among players of an alliance to defeat enemy clans, fighting over castles(for economy-politics), best farming spots, and open dungeons, or world raid bosses, everything happens in an open world. There are a lot of clan wars over open bosses, like the Boss baium in L2, this boss has 1 week respawn, 1 day before it appears, enemy clans are already fighting for the chance to kill it in ToI floor 13 as you can see, forget about random 1x1, it's about organized alliances that fight over power, resources and politics in a persistent world.
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
I'm playing the same games everyone else is, I'm just not interested in competition or dickwaving.
So... you're wrong.
The first time you got to a resource node before someone else, someone you may not have even know was there, leaving him to have to wait for it to respawn, you 'won' a competition. The first time you killed a mob that someone else needed for a quest, even if you didn't know that the other player was there, you 'won' a competition.
Play time is finite. Gettin a resource node, a mob, a quest collection item, etc all increases the time to completion for others working on the same goal in the area. You are setting them back in order to advance yourself. That is a form of competition.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I'm happy to play EVE, where PvP is the core of the game. (Despite the lamentation of each summer's new influx of "other MMO" players who find it to be a rude shock that in EVE PvP is everywhere, it's not going away, and that CCP doesn't care even a little bit that their untanked mining barge was ganked while they were AFK.)
I think the lesson here is that PvP can work perfectly well in an MMO, but the game in question has to be properly and thoroughly designed around PvP, not have it tacked on as a meaningless afterthought upon which nothing of consequence depends. It's better to disclude PvP altogether than to implement it badly. But it's ridiculous to claim that all MMO players don't enjoy competing with (killing boars before the other guy can get them) or even against (killing the other guy before he can get your boars) other players.
What they don't enjoy is badly constructed, meaningless PvP
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
I'm playing the same games everyone else is, I'm just not interested in competition or dickwaving.
So... you're wrong.
So.. you never yelled LFG? Or harvested a resource spot? Never crafted anything? Never bougth stuff from players? Never camped a mob spot? Never killed a rare mob? Never sold stuff to other players? And so on and so forth..
Well if you really didnt anything of that.. well, then you maybe really never played pvp in a pve game, but then again maybe you never played a MMO in the first place.
It's absurd. I am a PvE player. I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period. I do not compete with any other players, period. As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.
Then your not playing mmo's. Even the ut-most cookie cutter wow clone has you competing with other players in PVE in some way shape or form.
I'm playing the same games everyone else is, I'm just not interested in competition or dickwaving.
So... you're wrong.
So.. you never yelled LFG? Or harvested a resource spot? Never crafted anything? Never bougth stuff from players? Never camped a mob spot? Never killed a rare mob? Never sold stuff to other players? And so on and so forth..
Well if you really didnt anything of that.. well, then you maybe really never played pvp in a pve game, but then again maybe you never played a MMO in the first place.
While it is true those are areas where players compete with each other, in most MMOs those scenarios are often unwanted or undesirable conflicts, not intentional realms of competition. LFG is the perfect example of that, as the ideal situation in most MMOs is that players will have easy access to the group PVP content. Calling that PVP gameplay is quite the stretch.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i disagree with the people here saying, that the OP is wrong. they obviously never played a sandbox.
in EVE i have learned, that crafting & trading is the most brutal way of pvp i could imagine. it is also the most effective pvp.
Fighters win Battles, Crafters win Wars (and Politicians and Traders beat them all).
however, even the GW2 devs, who perhaps provided the most progressive theme-park these days have some eternal rule: "Never harm the player". they stated that more than once. and this means, that every persistency which causes competition amongst players in pve will not happen.
i disagree with the people here saying, that the OP is wrong. they obviously never played a sandbox.
in EVE i have learned, that crafting & trading is the most brutal way of pvp i could imagine. it is also the most effective pvp.
In EVE, crafting and trading are designed to be areas of player competition. That aside, your statement shows it's common in sandboxes, not that it's necessary or even prevalaent in MMORPGs as a whole.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OP there is a reason why DEFINITIONS exist in the first place. If you try to be inclusive about something it loses its meaning, so while interacting directly or indirect can be consider "PvP", it is such a stretch to make it work that it pretty much loses its meaning and therefore doesn't matter. hence why definition exist because it it did not, everything and anything can be group up and that loses its indentity in the process. So no player interaction as defined in gaming is not PvP.
If you want to call it PvP have fun with that, but not very many people are going to agree with you.
The first time you got to a resource node before someone else, someone you may not have even know was there, leaving him to have to wait for it to respawn, you 'won' a competition. The first time you killed a mob that someone else needed for a quest, even if you didn't know that the other player was there, you 'won' a competition.
Play time is finite. Gettin a resource node, a mob, a quest collection item, etc all increases the time to completion for others working on the same goal in the area. You are setting them back in order to advance yourself. That is a form of competition.
It's only a competition if you're actively competing. I'm playing a game. Most things respawn so quickly that you never stop anyone from getting anything. Personally, I prefer that most everything be instanced so I don't have to even worry what anyone else is doing. Your view of competition is simplistic.
So.. you never yelled LFG? Or harvested a resource spot? Never crafted anything? Never bougth stuff from players? Never camped a mob spot? Never killed a rare mob? Never sold stuff to other players? And so on and so forth..
Well if you really didnt anything of that.. well, then you maybe really never played pvp in a pve game, but then again maybe you never played a MMO in the first place.
I don't typically group, although certainly I have, but that's not a competition, that's voluntary cooperation. I virtually never do it to get specific drops, only to gain XP, which everyone gets in equal portions. I used to craft stuff for people for free, you bring me the stuff, I'll make something out of it. I virtually never sell anything to anyone or buy anything from anyone, if I get something interesting, I'll usually yell in guild chat to see if anyone wants it. If they give me something for it, fine. If not, whatever. I'm not wildly materialistic in MMOs. I keep what I'm currently using, or will be using in the near future, and dump the rest.
I don't play PvP at all, ever. Period. And I've played dozens of MMOs. Try again.
The first time you got to a resource node before someone else, someone you may not have even know was there, leaving him to have to wait for it to respawn, you 'won' a competition. The first time you killed a mob that someone else needed for a quest, even if you didn't know that the other player was there, you 'won' a competition.
Play time is finite. Gettin a resource node, a mob, a quest collection item, etc all increases the time to completion for others working on the same goal in the area. You are setting them back in order to advance yourself. That is a form of competition.
It's only a competition if you're actively competing. I'm playing a game. Most things respawn so quickly that you never stop anyone from getting anything. Personally, I prefer that most everything be instanced so I don't have to even worry what anyone else is doing. Your view of competition is simplistic.
You have it backwards. My description of competition is inclusive, yours is simplistic. One does not have to actively try to compete to be in a competition.
Personally I too prefer instanced play in PvE.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
You have it backwards. My description of competition is inclusive, yours is simplistic. One does not have to actively try to compete to be in a competition.
Personally I too prefer instanced play in PvE.
It is pointless if you're not actively engaged. It's like saying "if you're breathing, you're competing for oxygen!" It's really silly. In most games, nobody appreciably impacts my gameplay and I don't impact theirs. That's why I prefer instanced play, because I don't have to deal with them, they don't have to deal with me. I play my game, they play theirs. No appreciable competition.
Comments
I'm playing the same games everyone else is, I'm just not interested in competition or dickwaving.
So... you're wrong.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
PVP means nothing to me......If it was never in any game I ever played again it wouldn't bother me.....To me MMORPGs are about cooperation and working together to overcome difficult things.....PVP tends to be more about killing someone that literally has no chance in the fight due to superior level, skill, or gear (often paid for in a cash shop)........
The problem is that PVP in games like WoW means nothing, and people think that an open world pvp game is just a random ganking like WoW(pvp servers), but they're wrong, because in Lineage 1-2, for example tere is a lot of cooperation among players of an alliance to defeat enemy clans, fighting over castles(for economy-politics), best farming spots, and open dungeons, or world raid bosses, everything happens in an open world. There are a lot of clan wars over open bosses, like the Boss baium in L2, this boss has 1 week respawn, 1 day before it appears, enemy clans are already fighting for the chance to kill it in ToI floor 13 as you can see, forget about random 1x1, it's about organized alliances that fight over power, resources and politics in a persistent world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ07qYDvuBA
The first time you got to a resource node before someone else, someone you may not have even know was there, leaving him to have to wait for it to respawn, you 'won' a competition. The first time you killed a mob that someone else needed for a quest, even if you didn't know that the other player was there, you 'won' a competition.
Play time is finite. Gettin a resource node, a mob, a quest collection item, etc all increases the time to completion for others working on the same goal in the area. You are setting them back in order to advance yourself. That is a form of competition.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I'm happy to play EVE, where PvP is the core of the game. (Despite the lamentation of each summer's new influx of "other MMO" players who find it to be a rude shock that in EVE PvP is everywhere, it's not going away, and that CCP doesn't care even a little bit that their untanked mining barge was ganked while they were AFK.)
I think the lesson here is that PvP can work perfectly well in an MMO, but the game in question has to be properly and thoroughly designed around PvP, not have it tacked on as a meaningless afterthought upon which nothing of consequence depends. It's better to disclude PvP altogether than to implement it badly. But it's ridiculous to claim that all MMO players don't enjoy competing with (killing boars before the other guy can get them) or even against (killing the other guy before he can get your boars) other players.
What they don't enjoy is badly constructed, meaningless PvP
Give me liberty or give me lasers
So.. you never yelled LFG? Or harvested a resource spot? Never crafted anything? Never bougth stuff from players? Never camped a mob spot? Never killed a rare mob? Never sold stuff to other players? And so on and so forth..
Well if you really didnt anything of that.. well, then you maybe really never played pvp in a pve game, but then again maybe you never played a MMO in the first place.
While it is true those are areas where players compete with each other, in most MMOs those scenarios are often unwanted or undesirable conflicts, not intentional realms of competition. LFG is the perfect example of that, as the ideal situation in most MMOs is that players will have easy access to the group PVP content. Calling that PVP gameplay is quite the stretch.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
i disagree with the people here saying, that the OP is wrong. they obviously never played a sandbox.
in EVE i have learned, that crafting & trading is the most brutal way of pvp i could imagine. it is also the most effective pvp.
Fighters win Battles, Crafters win Wars (and Politicians and Traders beat them all).
however, even the GW2 devs, who perhaps provided the most progressive theme-park these days have some eternal rule: "Never harm the player". they stated that more than once. and this means, that every persistency which causes competition amongst players in pve will not happen.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
In EVE, crafting and trading are designed to be areas of player competition. That aside, your statement shows it's common in sandboxes, not that it's necessary or even prevalaent in MMORPGs as a whole.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OP there is a reason why DEFINITIONS exist in the first place. If you try to be inclusive about something it loses its meaning, so while interacting directly or indirect can be consider "PvP", it is such a stretch to make it work that it pretty much loses its meaning and therefore doesn't matter. hence why definition exist because it it did not, everything and anything can be group up and that loses its indentity in the process. So no player interaction as defined in gaming is not PvP.
If you want to call it PvP have fun with that, but not very many people are going to agree with you.
It's only a competition if you're actively competing. I'm playing a game. Most things respawn so quickly that you never stop anyone from getting anything. Personally, I prefer that most everything be instanced so I don't have to even worry what anyone else is doing. Your view of competition is simplistic.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I don't typically group, although certainly I have, but that's not a competition, that's voluntary cooperation. I virtually never do it to get specific drops, only to gain XP, which everyone gets in equal portions. I used to craft stuff for people for free, you bring me the stuff, I'll make something out of it. I virtually never sell anything to anyone or buy anything from anyone, if I get something interesting, I'll usually yell in guild chat to see if anyone wants it. If they give me something for it, fine. If not, whatever. I'm not wildly materialistic in MMOs. I keep what I'm currently using, or will be using in the near future, and dump the rest.
I don't play PvP at all, ever. Period. And I've played dozens of MMOs. Try again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You have it backwards. My description of competition is inclusive, yours is simplistic. One does not have to actively try to compete to be in a competition.
Personally I too prefer instanced play in PvE.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
It is pointless if you're not actively engaged. It's like saying "if you're breathing, you're competing for oxygen!" It's really silly. In most games, nobody appreciably impacts my gameplay and I don't impact theirs. That's why I prefer instanced play, because I don't have to deal with them, they don't have to deal with me. I play my game, they play theirs. No appreciable competition.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None