The more I see and hear about this game the more I think that the Devs wanted to make an MMO with X, Y, and Z but the only way they could make it was with the Elder Scrolls IP. So instead of making a n Elder scrolls MMO they are making MMO they wanted in the elder scrolls world.
I thnk it's safer to say that ZeniMedia wanted to get into the MMO market, and like any good business they understood that original IP's in this market tend to have a hard time differentiating themselves from the crowd.
What people who keep telling everyone that doesn't like what they're hearing don't seem to get is that ESO is only going to stand out from the crowd because it's ES, and not because it offers anything different from what you get in any other MMO; which is exactly what ZeniMedia is shooting for anyways.
Rift is still just your a typical themepark, it only sets itself apart from the pack because of the rate of content release, which is the route Trion went for because they now full well that the game isn't a deviation from from what you can find in other MMO's. Trion had a target audience in mind, the typical mmo gamer who's tired of waiting for new content and then having to play for that content, so they made an MMO that plays just like every MMO that the typical MMO gamer is familliar with but gives them new content on a regular basis without making them pay for it.
ZeniOnline stated very clearly who they're targetting, the typical MMO gamer. They are not hiding that that is who they want ESO to appeal to. They chose the ES name because it already has market awareness, and if you're going to make a typical themepark MMO you either need an IP people are familliar with or you need to make an MMO that isn't a typical themepark.
Why people on these forums insist on telling everyone that it's not going to be a typical themepark MMO is beyond me. ZeniOnline made it very clear, saying otherwise is entirely contradictory to what the company making the game is saying.
It's a typical themapark MMO, and that's what the guy in the article was saying.
Or do I also have to explain the point of satire to some of you?
Heres how I see DAOC2..oops hehe, I mean TESO playing out.
You start the game and make your first character. You have a choice of 1 of 3 Warring Factions. From there you pick your Race (1 of 3). From there, your gender and appearence. Then finally your Class (Fighter/Mage/Rogue). Enter the game world where you will go through a Tutorial that shows you how to use WASD, TAB, 123456 and a few other keys (Inv,Compass,Map). How to equip weapons and armor. How to get quests and more. Once done with the Tutorial, you will probably be given the first quest of your Personal Story. Which you can begin, or just venture out into your Faction specific lands and explore. Maybe pick up some open world quests from NPCs you happen by (you will know them by the Elder Scrolls Online symbol above their heads). Find an open world dungeon (you will know them by all the PCs standing around yelling LFG!). Send out your Companion to gather resources and more fun things. So you level your charcter, moving further out into your Faction specific lands till finally you reach Max Level. From there you will be given some form of "Alternate Advancement". Probably in the form of Scrolls and/or Artifacts that you can find as loot in the High Level Dungeons and Dailies. These you will level-up (Tiers) in order to obtain Epic Armor and Weapons, which you will use as you Battle for Cyrodiil against your Factions enemies. Capturing and Holding static control points for your Factions Dominion over Cyrodill. Coming in the 1st Expansion Pack- Hold Dominion over Cyrodiil and unlock access to Black Marsh. Where your Realm..err.. I mean Faction, can find even more Ancient and Mystical Scrolls to level up for EVEN MORE EPIC Armor and Weapons
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
The more I see and hear about this game the more I think that the Devs wanted to make an MMO with X, Y, and Z but the only way they could make it was with the Elder Scrolls IP. So instead of making a n Elder scrolls MMO they are making MMO they wanted in the elder scrolls world.
I thnk it's safer to say that ZeniMedia wanted to get into the MMO market, and like any good business they understood that original IP's in this market tend to have a hard time differentiating themselves from the crowd.
What people who keep telling everyone that doesn't like what they're hearing don't seem to get is that ESO is only going to stand out from the crowd because it's ES, and not because it offers anything different from what you get in any other MMO; which is exactly what ZeniMedia is shooting for anyways.
Rift is still just your a typical themepark, it only sets itself apart from the pack because of the rate of content release, which is the route Trion went for because they now full well that the game isn't a deviation from from what you can find in other MMO's. Trion had a target audience in mind, the typical mmo gamer who's tired of waiting for new content and then having to play for that content, so they made an MMO that plays just like every MMO that the typical MMO gamer is familliar with but gives them new content on a regular basis without making them pay for it.
ZeniOnline stated very clearly who they're targetting, the typical MMO gamer. They are not hiding that that is who they want ESO to appeal to. They chose the ES name because it already has market awareness, and if you're going to make a typical themepark MMO you either need an IP people are familliar with or you need to make an MMO that isn't a typical themepark.
Why people on these forums insist on telling everyone that it's not going to be a typical themepark MMO is beyond me. ZeniOnline made it very clear, saying otherwise is entirely contradictory to what the company making the game is saying.
It's a typical themapark MMO, and that's what the guy in the article was saying.
Or do I also have to explain the point of satire to some of you?
Heres how I see DAOC2..oops hehe, I mean TESO playing out.
You start the game and make your first character. You have a choice of 1 of 3 Warring Factions. From there you pick your Race (1 of 3). From there, your gender and appearence. Then finally your Class (Fighter/Mage/Rogue). Enter the game world where you will go through a Tutorial that shows you how to use WASD, TAB, 123456 and a few other keys (Inv,Compass,Map). How to equip weapons and armor. How to get quests and more. Once done with the Tutorial, you will probably be given the first quest of your Personal Story. Which you can begin, or just venture out into your Faction specific lands and explore. Maybe pick up some open world quests from NPCs you happen by (you will know them by the Elder Scrolls Online symbol above their heads). Find an open world dungeon (you will know them by all the PCs standing around yelling LFG!). Send out your Companion to gather resources and more fun things. So you level your charcter, moving further out into your Faction specific lands till finally you reach Max Level. From there you will be given some form of "Alternate Advancement". Probably in the form of Scrolls and/or Artifacts that you can find as loot in the High Level Dungeons and Dailies. These you will level-up (Tiers) in order to obtain Epic Armor and Weapons, which you will use as you Battle for Cyrodiil against your Factions enemies. Capturing and Holding static control points for your Factions Dominion over Cyrodill. Coming in the 1st Expansion Pack- Hold Dominion over Cyrodiil and unlock access to Black Marsh. Where your Realm..err.. I mean Faction, can find even more Ancient and Mystical Scrolls to level up for EVEN MORE EPIC Armor and Weapons
this game is still in its infancy and 50% of what they say they are going to do will not even be on the table at launch. TOR said big things 3 years ago now its just WoW with lightsabers. TESO will just be WoW without cows and pandas. just roll a panda in panderia and stop whining. no point in rolling a new toon and wasting time in another WoW rehash.
some of the replies I have read here are stunning I will try to address as many as I can, I am sure I will miss some
1. nobody, I mean nobody, is trying to suggest that a TES MMO has to be EXACTLY like Skyrim. We all understand the graphics are not going to be as good, we all understand we will not be able to pick up thousands of items and dump then at the front door someplace. None of that however is related to FPS view, FPS combat, player housing, class focused system, forced factions.
2. Nobody here who has been complaining is being anything other than hyper specific. We are not addressing abstractions we are addressing xplict statements on explict features the deeveloper has talked about.
3. FPS view vs 3rd person view for many players IS a HUGE deal. You will be spending 100% of your gaming time either looking at a characters back or you will not. Regardless of if you like that or not, its a large impact.
4. ALL of the items we would like to see in this MMO exist already in other MMOs and in those cases those specific features are working fine.
5. most of us DO NOT play TES for the lore.
6. We dont go around random MMO complaing about features we dont like. We have context. We are not, for example, going to Hello Kitty and asking why they are getting rid of a skill based system. We are doing that here for specific reasons and if you need those reasons explained to you then to be frank you arent very clever.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
some of the replies I have read here are stunning I will try to address as many as I can, I am sure I will miss some
1. nobody, I mean nobody, is trying to suggest that a TES MMO has to be EXACTLY like Skyrim. We all understand the graphics are not going to be as good, we all understand we will not be able to pick up thousands of items and dump then at the front door someplace. None of that however is related to FPS view, FPS combat, player housing, class focused system, forced factions.
2. Nobody here who has been complaining is being anything other than hyper specific. We are not addressing abstractions we are addressing xplict statements on explict features the deeveloper has talked about.
3. FPS view vs 3rd person view for many players IS a HUGE deal. You will be spending 100% of your gaming time either looking at a characters back or you will not. Regardless of if you like that or not, its a large impact.
4. ALL of the items we would like to see in this MMO exist already in other MMOs and in those cases those specific features are working fine.
5. most of us DO NOT play TES for the lore.
6. We dont go around random MMO complaing about features we dont like. We have context. We are not, for example, going to Hello Kitty and asking why they are getting rid of a skill based system. We are doing that here for specific reasons and if you need those reasons explained to you then to be frank you arent very clever.
All fine and dandy, however at the end of the day it's all for nothing. Tacking 1st person view onto a system designed around 3rd person play never turns out well. Controls are designed first and foremost around perspective, just look at most of Bethesda's third person experiences be it Fallout or TES, even Skyrim's improved third person still leaves a lot to be desired. It's a trade off, you focus on one or the other and design combat effectiveness around it.
Player housing is another area you can't just "throw in" as a fan service. It takes a world and design built to support it. At this point housing would simply turn out like LOTRO or EQ2 instanced and/or zoned. Which would still completely undermine the way in which housing is approached in TES games.
Fans who want that TES experience in MMO form, aren't going to get it out of this game, it's foundation is obviously not any where close to a TES foundation. It's not going to happen in TESO. On top of that, any information received about what some want here, will not see it's way into this genre until 5-10 years from now. That's the way this genre works. Which renders these topics moot in regard to TESO.
To make this worse those who do release games from now until then will in large part be under funded indie studios, who do not have a workforce required to complete a project of such scope; meaning a bunch of games using these features doing it wrong and turning even more away from the SB formula. IE more MO's and DF's.
As for TESO I have no idea how the game will end up, I'm not sold on it, I'm not against it. Which is the same way I approach any MMO, until I see it in action in beta or a trial. I'm not even following the game at this point, not enough information to warrant that IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
some of the replies I have read here are stunning I will try to address as many as I can, I am sure I will miss some
1. nobody, I mean nobody, is trying to suggest that a TES MMO has to be EXACTLY like Skyrim. We all understand the graphics are not going to be as good, we all understand we will not be able to pick up thousands of items and dump then at the front door someplace. None of that however is related to FPS view, FPS combat, player housing, class focused system, forced factions.
2. Nobody here who has been complaining is being anything other than hyper specific. We are not addressing abstractions we are addressing xplict statements on explict features the deeveloper has talked about.
3. FPS view vs 3rd person view for many players IS a HUGE deal. You will be spending 100% of your gaming time either looking at a characters back or you will not. Regardless of if you like that or not, its a large impact.
4. ALL of the items we would like to see in this MMO exist already in other MMOs and in those cases those specific features are working fine.
5. most of us DO NOT play TES for the lore.
6. We dont go around random MMO complaing about features we dont like. We have context. We are not, for example, going to Hello Kitty and asking why they are getting rid of a skill based system. We are doing that here for specific reasons and if you need those reasons explained to you then to be frank you arent very clever.
All fine and dandy, however at the end of the day it's all for nothing. Tacking 1st person view onto a system designed around 3rd person play never turns out well. Controls are designed first and foremost around perspective, just look at most of Bethesda's third person experiences be it Fallout or TES, even Skyrim's improved third person still leaves a lot to be desired. It's a trade off, you focus on one or the other and design combat effectiveness around it.
Player housing is another area you can't just "throw in" as a fan service. It takes a world and design built to support it. At this point housing would simply turn out like LOTRO or EQ2 instanced and/or zoned. Which would still completely undermine the way in which housing is approach in TES games.
Fans who want that TES experience in MMO form, aren't going to get it out of this game, it's foundation is obviously not any where close to a TES foundation. It's not going to happen in TESO. On top of that, any information received about what some want here, will not see it's way into this genre until 5-10 years from now. That's the way this genre works. Which renders these topics moot in regard to TESO.
To make this worse those who do release games from now until then will in large part be under funded indie studios, who do not have a workforce required to complete a project of such scope; meaning a bunch of games using these features doing it wrong and turning even more away from the SB formula. IE more MO's and DF's.
As for TESO I have no idea how the game will end up, I'm not sold on it, I'm not against it. Which is the same way I approach any MMO, until I see it in action in beta or a trial. I'm not even following the game at this point, not enough information to warrant that IMO. Still I wish this site would stick to it's pollicy on issues like this:
This one:
"Posting the same or similar messages over and over again for the sole purpose of disrupting a board's activity is against the rules."
And this one:
"If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."
To put it simply there's not a topic on this board that "you folks" do not bombard with this stuff.
you are addressing intresting points but not the points I am bringing up.
I am showing specifics of what TES fans are concerned about as an example of how we are NOT dealing with abstractions. I didnt bring them up to debate the specifics themselves.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
you are addressing intresting points but not the points I am bringing up.
I am showing specifics of what TES fans are concerned about as an example of how we are NOT dealing with abstractions. I didnt bring them up to debate the specifics themselves.
I understand what you were saying and my point wasn't at you more so this board in general. I just think these topics are more general discussion related rather than TESO specific. As the problems people are seeing in TESO, are genre related. I get where it's coming from, I'm sure many felt if there was a IP that could really turn this genre on it's head, it was TES. I'm sure any fan who is also an MMO player, has had day dreams about the possibilities of such a game. Again though the problem here is genre specific, MMO devs never really do IP's justice, very few have, the bottomline is they think of revenue and potential profits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
you are addressing intresting points but not the points I am bringing up.
I am showing specifics of what TES fans are concerned about as an example of how we are NOT dealing with abstractions. I didnt bring them up to debate the specifics themselves.
I understand what you were saying and my point wasn't at you more so this board in general. I just think these topics are more general discussion related rather than TESO specific. As the problems people are seeing in TESO, are genre related. I get where it's coming from, I'm sure many felt if there was a IP that could really turn this genre on it's head, it was TES. I'm sure any fan who is also an MMO player, has had day dreams about the possibilities of such a game. Again though the problem here is genre specific, MMO devs never really do IP's justice, very few have, the bottomline is they think of revenue and potential profits.
no, its not genre specific its TESO specific. There are RPG MMOs that have these features we are requesting, its not part of the genre.
I was addressing the common topic of 'until we play it we really dont know'. Yes, we do know on the specifics that we are adrressing. we dont need to play the game to know its not FPS view.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by seniorfrito Originally posted by PyrateLVOriginally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false. Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting.
I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting.
I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
It's a problem when people drop the RPG from mmorpg. They confuse all mmos as one thing.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting.
I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting.
I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Heres how I see DAOC2..oops hehe, I mean TESO playing out.
You start the game and make your first character. You have a choice of 1 of 3 Warring Factions. From there you pick your Race (1 of 3). From there, your gender and appearence. Then finally your Class (Fighter/Mage/Rogue). Enter the game world where you will go through a Tutorial that shows you how to use WASD, TAB, 123456 and a few other keys (Inv,Compass,Map). How to equip weapons and armor. How to get quests and more. Once done with the Tutorial, you will probably be given the first quest of your Personal Story. Which you can begin, or just venture out into your Faction specific lands and explore. Maybe pick up some open world quests from NPCs you happen by (you will know them by the Elder Scrolls Online symbol above their heads). Find an open world dungeon (you will know them by all the PCs standing around yelling LFG!). Send out your Companion to gather resources and more fun things. So you level your charcter, moving further out into your Faction specific lands till finally you reach Max Level. From there you will be given some form of "Alternate Advancement". Probably in the form of Scrolls and/or Artifacts that you can find as loot in the High Level Dungeons and Dailies. These you will level-up (Tiers) in order to obtain Epic Armor and Weapons, which you will use as you Battle for Cyrodiil against your Factions enemies. Capturing and Holding static control points for your Factions Dominion over Cyrodill. Coming in the 1st Expansion Pack- Hold Dominion over Cyrodiil and unlock access to Black Marsh. Where your Realm..err.. I mean Faction, can find even more Ancient and Mystical Scrolls to level up for EVEN MORE EPIC Armor and Weapons
Apart from the factions and race/class options, you pretty much just played out the start of every MMO in the last 7 years.. not just this game
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by seniorfritoOriginally posted by PyrateLVOriginally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting. I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Role Play. Playing the role of another character. In my pen and paper days, I NEVER swung a sword at an orc. I NEVER dodged an incoming blow. MMORPG is taking the role of a character. Always has been, always will be, no matter what twitch gamers want it to mean.
Twitch combat, where YOU aim, YOU swing the sword, YOU block the incoming blow is from FPS based games. From console players. Well... maybe some LARPA players, too...
There are a couple of industry genres already available for your kind of combat. MMORPG is NOT one them.
Why does this from of gameplay ONLY involve combat? Why does a player's faith not affect their divine abilities? Why does a player's IQ not affect their magical aptitude? No... only their manual dexterity counts.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by iceman00Came from a commenter at, of all places, IGN:"Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
But thats what the MMO majority want and the way MMOs are supposed to be.
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting. I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Role Play. Playing the role of another character. In my pen and paper days, I NEVER swung a sword at an orc. I NEVER dodged an incoming blow. MMORPG is taking the role of a character. Always has been, always will be, no matter what twitch gamers want it to mean.
Twitch combat, where YOU aim, YOU swing the sword, YOU block the incoming blow is from FPS based games. From console players. Well... maybe some LARPA players, too...
There are a couple of industry genres already available for your kind of combat. MMORPG is NOT one them.
Why does this from of gameplay ONLY involve combat? Why does a player's faith not affect their divine abilities? Why does a player's IQ not affect their magical aptitude? No... only their manual dexterity counts.
I totally get what you are saying and I used that logic on others when they say that an RPG 'must' contain skill but the truth is its doesnt HAVE to be either way.
nobody out there other than some random players like yourself as saying that is a requirement for a MMORPG not have twitch skills that is silly. You might not like it and that is fine but they DO exist in MMORPG no matter how hard you try to say that they are not.
And RV is a camper...give it up, dont be that guy
ADDED: using your logic you would have to inject some new logic as to why this is true for an MMO but not true for a single player game. without doing so you would be saying that TES is not an RPG.....kinda hard to resolve.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Role Play. Playing the role of another character. In my pen and paper days, I NEVER swung a sword at an orc. I NEVER dodged an incoming blow. MMORPG is taking the role of a character. Always has been, always will be, no matter what twitch gamers want it to mean.
Twitch combat, where YOU aim, YOU swing the sword, YOU block the incoming blow is from FPS based games. From console players. Well... maybe some LARPA players, too...
There are a couple of industry genres already available for your kind of combat. MMORPG is NOT one them.
Why does this from of gameplay ONLY involve combat? Why does a player's faith not affect their divine abilities? Why does a player's IQ not affect their magical aptitude? No... only their manual dexterity counts.
I'm sorry, but you're old enough to know better, and to know that FPS gameplay was a part of oldschool RPG's. In fact the very first MMO ever made, Meridian 59 was not played in 3rd person perspective, and I'm pretty sure it used skill based combat.
A lot of oldschool D&D games were played from first person perspective. FPS does not mean there NO dice rolls, and that is only part of the "RPG" arguement you got going for you. Many people that played in my P&P gaming session would indeed play from the "perspective" of their character.
Or have you never heard of a LARP? They're as much an RPG as any P&P one and you certianly aren't playing from an outside perspective, and many of them do not use any dice rolls to determine who wins in combat.
Stop making up excuses and just get to the point of it.
YOU don't like skill based combat. That's fine, nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is the need to justify what you like or dislike by making false claims about what an RPG is.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
I think it's more like, they want people to get the impression that it's more active then the usual MMO.
Activating skills is no more active then any other game. Believe it or not, GW2 combat is no more active then WoW.
The GI article compared it to WoW in it's feel and movement. They're just trying to quell some of the negativety that arose from people reading that and going WTF, that's not how ES combat worked. So they've changed wording and are now calling it "active" or "action" combat.
WoW is also active and action combat because you're constantly running around kitting, closing gaps, or trying to get behind your target.
There's nothing wrong with WoW style combat, it's one of the things that made WoW a good game. There is something wrong with trying to wordsmith things to give an impression that something is more then it is, and that's what they're doing now.
And no, I do not need to play it or see gameplay to understand what they're describing.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
1. No, they are running on a deficit of integrity at the moment. they will have to pull themselves out of so any statement now starts at a deficit instead of gifting surplus like you are suggesting we do.
2. People really dont play TES for the combat in the first place I dont follow why they are trying to make that the focus. I am not saying combat should be good, I am saying its not a key focused feature.
3. They will have a really hard time beating Darkfall on the combat front.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
Yet that same person would bitch about the lag in a skyrim mmorpg. A bitch will always bitch.
Pot, meet kettle.
Fail troll is fail
Poeple who are inclined to complain about every little this and that won't be happy.
Gotta agree with ya.
This site is always about the glass being half empty. There is always room for constructive criticism. I wouldnt call what happens around these parts as such.
As far a GFX....not everyone can own a 2k plus PC. I think the GFX allows it to run on less beefier machines. I would imagine a bunch of players in the same area, with the amount of detail in the SP version, could probably cripple even the best rigs.
Funny.... my PC cost 850 three years ago and it STILL runs everything on max detail. Why? Because your games are running off of tech that is pretty much 8 years old. Most of your bid budget games aren't even doing DX10, to say nothing of DX11. and no, "high res texture packs" are not taking advantage of the latest tech.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
1. No, they are running on a deficit of integrity at the moment. they will have to pull themselves out of so any statement now starts at a deficit instead of gifting surplus like you are suggesting we do.
2. People really dont play TES for the combat in the first place I dont follow why they are trying to make that the focus. I am not saying combat should be good, I am saying its not a key focused feature.
3. They will have a really hard time beating Darkfall on the combat front.
I've seen the combat, it's like a floaty version of GW2 mixed with Neverwinter. It is not Elder Scrolls by any stretch of the imagination, not even 3rd person Elder Scrolls.
For me, it isn't just the combat that bothers me, but that is a big part of it. If they gave use Skyrim combat with a couple of improvements (hotbar is totally fine for ancillary abilities like potions and switching weapons/spells as opposed to having to pause during a fight) I could overlook the game's other shortcomings.
As for Darkfall, I disagree, I think they could take combat similar to that and refine the hell out of it. Darkfall has a major flaw in its combat system and that is the 40%+ damage to the back mechanic. It turns every melee fight into a figure-eight sticky-backing sprint-off. It's not fun and it's not visceral, it's like playing ring around the rosey until someone bleeds to death or runs out of stamina. And it just looks...dumb to anyone watching.
The combat I'd rather they look at for inspiration is Mortal Online, much more deliberate, weighty and visceral when it comes to melee. Plus, and weapon you use or spell you cast can also be used from a mount. And it is exclusively first-person. Darkfall switched to 3rd person for melee which to me was kind of silly.
With so many team members and so much money they could take a hybrid of the two systems and make them a hell of a lot more fun.
There are plenty of other problems with ESO but combat, and the interactivity that should be paired with it, is central to gameplay in any MMO. One does a LOT of fighting in MMOs in general and anything short of what I just described would get so boring to me so fast.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
1. No, they are running on a deficit of integrity at the moment. they will have to pull themselves out of so any statement now starts at a deficit instead of gifting surplus like you are suggesting we do.
2. People really dont play TES for the combat in the first place I dont follow why they are trying to make that the focus. I am not saying combat should be good, I am saying its not a key focused feature.
3. They will have a really hard time beating Darkfall on the combat front.
I've seen the combat, it's like a floaty version of GW2 mixed with Neverwinter. It is not Elder Scrolls by any stretch of the imagination, not even 3rd person Elder Scrolls.
For me, it isn't just the combat that bothers me, but that is a big part of it. If they gave use Skyrim combat with a couple of improvements (hotbar is totally fine for ancillary abilities like potions and switching weapons/spells as opposed to having to pause during a fight) I could overlook the game's other shortcomings.
As for Darkfall, I disagree, I think they could take combat similar to that and refine the hell out of it. Darkfall has a major flaw in its combat system and that is the 40%+ damage to the back mechanic. It turns every melee fight into a figure-eight sticky-backing sprint-off. It's not fun and it's not visceral, it's like playing ring around the rosey until someone bleeds to death or runs out of stamina. And it just looks...dumb to anyone watching.
The combat I'd rather they look at for inspiration is Mortal Online, much more deliberate, weighty and visceral when it comes to melee. Plus, and weapon you use or spell you cast can also be used from a mount. And it is exclusively first-person. Darkfall switched to 3rd person for melee which to me was kind of silly.
With so many team members and so much money they could take a hybrid of the two systems and make them a hell of a lot more fun.
There are plenty of other problems with ESO but combat, and the interactivity that should be paired with it, is central to gameplay in any MMO. One does a LOT of fighting in MMOs in general and anything short of what I just described would get so boring to me so fast.
on your darkfall statement things like how much damage is done from the back and how much damage a spell does is extreemly easy to change. What is not easy to change is the physical mechanics, physics, collision etc. Once that is done, the rest is about as hard as text edit on an XML file.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Whenever I play skyrim, I think 'this game is good, but I wish it didn't have all these intricate visual details, and I wish the combat hewed closer to the well worn tropes of the MMO circa 2004'. Finally someone with the vision to implement cartoony graphics and take out the stressful player-driven content to replace it with auto attacks and autotargetting so I can leave the room during fights."
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
1. No, they are running on a deficit of integrity at the moment. they will have to pull themselves out of so any statement now starts at a deficit instead of gifting surplus like you are suggesting we do.
2. People really dont play TES for the combat in the first place I dont follow why they are trying to make that the focus. I am not saying combat should be good, I am saying its not a key focused feature.
3. They will have a really hard time beating Darkfall on the combat front.
I've seen the combat, it's like a floaty version of GW2 mixed with Neverwinter. It is not Elder Scrolls by any stretch of the imagination, not even 3rd person Elder Scrolls.
For me, it isn't just the combat that bothers me, but that is a big part of it. If they gave use Skyrim combat with a couple of improvements (hotbar is totally fine for ancillary abilities like potions and switching weapons/spells as opposed to having to pause during a fight) I could overlook the game's other shortcomings.
As for Darkfall, I disagree, I think they could take combat similar to that and refine the hell out of it. Darkfall has a major flaw in its combat system and that is the 40%+ damage to the back mechanic. It turns every melee fight into a figure-eight sticky-backing sprint-off. It's not fun and it's not visceral, it's like playing ring around the rosey until someone bleeds to death or runs out of stamina. And it just looks...dumb to anyone watching.
The combat I'd rather they look at for inspiration is Mortal Online, much more deliberate, weighty and visceral when it comes to melee. Plus, and weapon you use or spell you cast can also be used from a mount. And it is exclusively first-person. Darkfall switched to 3rd person for melee which to me was kind of silly.
With so many team members and so much money they could take a hybrid of the two systems and make them a hell of a lot more fun.
There are plenty of other problems with ESO but combat, and the interactivity that should be paired with it, is central to gameplay in any MMO. One does a LOT of fighting in MMOs in general and anything short of what I just described would get so boring to me so fast.
on your darkfall statement things like how much damage is done from the back and how much damage a spell does is extreemly easy to change. What is not easy to change is the physical mechanics, physics, collision etc. Once that is done, the rest is about as hard as text edit on an XML file.
Very true, I really hope this is changed in Darkfal 2.0.
Comments
Heres how I see DAOC2..oops hehe, I mean TESO playing out.
You start the game and make your first character. You have a choice of 1 of 3 Warring Factions.
From there you pick your Race (1 of 3). From there, your gender and appearence. Then finally your Class (Fighter/Mage/Rogue).
Enter the game world where you will go through a Tutorial that shows you how to use WASD, TAB, 123456 and a few other keys (Inv,Compass,Map). How to equip weapons and armor. How to get quests and more.
Once done with the Tutorial, you will probably be given the first quest of your Personal Story. Which you can begin, or just venture out into your Faction specific lands and explore. Maybe pick up some open world quests from NPCs you happen by (you will know them by the Elder Scrolls Online symbol above their heads). Find an open world dungeon (you will know them by all the PCs standing around yelling LFG!). Send out your Companion to gather resources and more fun things.
So you level your charcter, moving further out into your Faction specific lands till finally you reach Max Level.
From there you will be given some form of "Alternate Advancement". Probably in the form of Scrolls and/or Artifacts that you can find as loot in the High Level Dungeons and Dailies. These you will level-up (Tiers) in order to obtain Epic Armor and Weapons, which you will use as you Battle for Cyrodiil against your Factions enemies. Capturing and Holding static control points for your Factions Dominion over Cyrodill.
Coming in the 1st Expansion Pack- Hold Dominion over Cyrodiil and unlock access to Black Marsh. Where your Realm..err.. I mean Faction, can find even more Ancient and Mystical Scrolls to level up for EVEN MORE EPIC Armor and Weapons
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Should have prefaced that with *Spoiler alert*
this game is still in its infancy and 50% of what they say they are going to do will not even be on the table at launch. TOR said big things 3 years ago now its just WoW with lightsabers. TESO will just be WoW without cows and pandas. just roll a panda in panderia and stop whining. no point in rolling a new toon and wasting time in another WoW rehash.
some of the replies I have read here are stunning I will try to address as many as I can, I am sure I will miss some
1. nobody, I mean nobody, is trying to suggest that a TES MMO has to be EXACTLY like Skyrim. We all understand the graphics are not going to be as good, we all understand we will not be able to pick up thousands of items and dump then at the front door someplace. None of that however is related to FPS view, FPS combat, player housing, class focused system, forced factions.
2. Nobody here who has been complaining is being anything other than hyper specific. We are not addressing abstractions we are addressing xplict statements on explict features the deeveloper has talked about.
3. FPS view vs 3rd person view for many players IS a HUGE deal. You will be spending 100% of your gaming time either looking at a characters back or you will not. Regardless of if you like that or not, its a large impact.
4. ALL of the items we would like to see in this MMO exist already in other MMOs and in those cases those specific features are working fine.
5. most of us DO NOT play TES for the lore.
6. We dont go around random MMO complaing about features we dont like. We have context. We are not, for example, going to Hello Kitty and asking why they are getting rid of a skill based system. We are doing that here for specific reasons and if you need those reasons explained to you then to be frank you arent very clever.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
All fine and dandy, however at the end of the day it's all for nothing. Tacking 1st person view onto a system designed around 3rd person play never turns out well. Controls are designed first and foremost around perspective, just look at most of Bethesda's third person experiences be it Fallout or TES, even Skyrim's improved third person still leaves a lot to be desired. It's a trade off, you focus on one or the other and design combat effectiveness around it.
Player housing is another area you can't just "throw in" as a fan service. It takes a world and design built to support it. At this point housing would simply turn out like LOTRO or EQ2 instanced and/or zoned. Which would still completely undermine the way in which housing is approached in TES games.
Fans who want that TES experience in MMO form, aren't going to get it out of this game, it's foundation is obviously not any where close to a TES foundation. It's not going to happen in TESO. On top of that, any information received about what some want here, will not see it's way into this genre until 5-10 years from now. That's the way this genre works. Which renders these topics moot in regard to TESO.
To make this worse those who do release games from now until then will in large part be under funded indie studios, who do not have a workforce required to complete a project of such scope; meaning a bunch of games using these features doing it wrong and turning even more away from the SB formula. IE more MO's and DF's.
As for TESO I have no idea how the game will end up, I'm not sold on it, I'm not against it. Which is the same way I approach any MMO, until I see it in action in beta or a trial. I'm not even following the game at this point, not enough information to warrant that IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
you are addressing intresting points but not the points I am bringing up.
I am showing specifics of what TES fans are concerned about as an example of how we are NOT dealing with abstractions. I didnt bring them up to debate the specifics themselves.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I understand what you were saying and my point wasn't at you more so this board in general. I just think these topics are more general discussion related rather than TESO specific. As the problems people are seeing in TESO, are genre related. I get where it's coming from, I'm sure many felt if there was a IP that could really turn this genre on it's head, it was TES. I'm sure any fan who is also an MMO player, has had day dreams about the possibilities of such a game. Again though the problem here is genre specific, MMO devs never really do IP's justice, very few have, the bottomline is they think of revenue and potential profits.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
no, its not genre specific its TESO specific. There are RPG MMOs that have these features we are requesting, its not part of the genre.
I was addressing the common topic of 'until we play it we really dont know'. Yes, we do know on the specifics that we are adrressing. we dont need to play the game to know its not FPS view.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting.
I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It's a problem when people drop the RPG from mmorpg. They confuse all mmos as one thing.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Apart from the factions and race/class options, you pretty much just played out the start of every MMO in the last 7 years.. not just this game
Since when are MMOs "supposed" to be auto target and auto attack? This is a major misconception that has been destroying the MMO industry for years. You start seeing these more innovative games with non-traditional combat style and what happens? People start hyping it like crazy. What happens when everyone sees a new game with the traditional MMO combat style? They all cry WoW Clone. Here's two examples of recent games that went the tradtional route. Rift and SWTOR. Both are failing. PyrateLV, your entire comment is completely false.
Auto targeting is part the RPG part of MMORPG. Your character is the one doing the fighting, not the player. MMOFPS (and MMOAAG (Action Adventure Games)) is where the player is doing the fighting. I SUCK at mouse targeting. Half the time I am staring at the ground, not the enemy. When I play MMORPGs, I want my character to do the fighting. I am sorry you don't understand this.
Wrong.
there are RPG MMOs out there that are not tab targeted.
I have no issue in people not taking targeted based systems. that is fine, but dont suggest its a genre requirements that is silly talk
Role Play. Playing the role of another character. In my pen and paper days, I NEVER swung a sword at an orc. I NEVER dodged an incoming blow. MMORPG is taking the role of a character. Always has been, always will be, no matter what twitch gamers want it to mean.
Twitch combat, where YOU aim, YOU swing the sword, YOU block the incoming blow is from FPS based games. From console players. Well... maybe some LARPA players, too...
MMOFPS
(can't think of any examples...)
MMOAAG (action adventure)
Dragon's Nest, Vindictus, etc
There are a couple of industry genres already available for your kind of combat. MMORPG is NOT one them.
Why does this from of gameplay ONLY involve combat? Why does a player's faith not affect their divine abilities? Why does a player's IQ not affect their magical aptitude? No... only their manual dexterity counts.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I totally get what you are saying and I used that logic on others when they say that an RPG 'must' contain skill but the truth is its doesnt HAVE to be either way.
nobody out there other than some random players like yourself as saying that is a requirement for a MMORPG not have twitch skills that is silly. You might not like it and that is fine but they DO exist in MMORPG no matter how hard you try to say that they are not.
And RV is a camper...give it up, dont be that guy
ADDED: using your logic you would have to inject some new logic as to why this is true for an MMO but not true for a single player game. without doing so you would be saying that TES is not an RPG.....kinda hard to resolve.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I'm sorry, but you're old enough to know better, and to know that FPS gameplay was a part of oldschool RPG's. In fact the very first MMO ever made, Meridian 59 was not played in 3rd person perspective, and I'm pretty sure it used skill based combat.
A lot of oldschool D&D games were played from first person perspective. FPS does not mean there NO dice rolls, and that is only part of the "RPG" arguement you got going for you. Many people that played in my P&P gaming session would indeed play from the "perspective" of their character.
Or have you never heard of a LARP? They're as much an RPG as any P&P one and you certianly aren't playing from an outside perspective, and many of them do not use any dice rolls to determine who wins in combat.
Stop making up excuses and just get to the point of it.
YOU don't like skill based combat. That's fine, nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is the need to justify what you like or dislike by making false claims about what an RPG is.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I don't think people understand that the combat is more active than the usual MMO. Yes, we've only heard them SAY this but, let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we SEE and PLAY the combat.
This is not a game.
I think it's more like, they want people to get the impression that it's more active then the usual MMO.
Activating skills is no more active then any other game. Believe it or not, GW2 combat is no more active then WoW.
The GI article compared it to WoW in it's feel and movement. They're just trying to quell some of the negativety that arose from people reading that and going WTF, that's not how ES combat worked. So they've changed wording and are now calling it "active" or "action" combat.
WoW is also active and action combat because you're constantly running around kitting, closing gaps, or trying to get behind your target.
There's nothing wrong with WoW style combat, it's one of the things that made WoW a good game. There is something wrong with trying to wordsmith things to give an impression that something is more then it is, and that's what they're doing now.
And no, I do not need to play it or see gameplay to understand what they're describing.
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Funny.... my PC cost 850 three years ago and it STILL runs everything on max detail. Why? Because your games are running off of tech that is pretty much 8 years old. Most of your bid budget games aren't even doing DX10, to say nothing of DX11. and no, "high res texture packs" are not taking advantage of the latest tech.
I've seen the combat, it's like a floaty version of GW2 mixed with Neverwinter. It is not Elder Scrolls by any stretch of the imagination, not even 3rd person Elder Scrolls.
For me, it isn't just the combat that bothers me, but that is a big part of it. If they gave use Skyrim combat with a couple of improvements (hotbar is totally fine for ancillary abilities like potions and switching weapons/spells as opposed to having to pause during a fight) I could overlook the game's other shortcomings.
As for Darkfall, I disagree, I think they could take combat similar to that and refine the hell out of it. Darkfall has a major flaw in its combat system and that is the 40%+ damage to the back mechanic. It turns every melee fight into a figure-eight sticky-backing sprint-off. It's not fun and it's not visceral, it's like playing ring around the rosey until someone bleeds to death or runs out of stamina. And it just looks...dumb to anyone watching.
The combat I'd rather they look at for inspiration is Mortal Online, much more deliberate, weighty and visceral when it comes to melee. Plus, and weapon you use or spell you cast can also be used from a mount. And it is exclusively first-person. Darkfall switched to 3rd person for melee which to me was kind of silly.
With so many team members and so much money they could take a hybrid of the two systems and make them a hell of a lot more fun.
There are plenty of other problems with ESO but combat, and the interactivity that should be paired with it, is central to gameplay in any MMO. One does a LOT of fighting in MMOs in general and anything short of what I just described would get so boring to me so fast.
on your darkfall statement things like how much damage is done from the back and how much damage a spell does is extreemly easy to change. What is not easy to change is the physical mechanics, physics, collision etc. Once that is done, the rest is about as hard as text edit on an XML file.
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Very true, I really hope this is changed in Darkfal 2.0.