I kind of agree with the OP even though I don't want to. In that respect TSW seems more about the illusion of freedom while conforming to the makers will.
Also that's kind of the tone, you pick a side to start, but you don't really have any space once you pick. Ok you're a mutant (join the illuminate) (sub templar) (sub dragon).
And the factions mean nothing really......You end up doing the same quest lines no matter which one you pick once you leave their starting cities (which is not very long).....Too many people try to make TSW sound like rocket science when it really isnt that challenging at all.....Heck Dungeon Master 20 years ago had more difficult riddles to solve than this.
Originally posted by Thanes I kind of agree with the OP even though I don't want to. In that respect TSW seems more about the illusion of freedom while conforming to the makers will.Also that's kind of the tone, you pick a side to start, but you don't really have any space once you pick. Ok you're a mutant (join the illuminate) (sub templar) (sub dragon).
And the factions mean nothing really......You end up doing the same quest lines no matter which one you pick once you leave their starting cities (which is not very long).....Too many people try to make TSW sound like rocket science when it really isnt that challenging at all.....Heck Dungeon Master 20 years ago had more difficult riddles to solve than this.
Nahhhhh factions mean a lot. Maybe you should do some research
So you are saying you would like to play an MMO whose dungeons are designed like Deus Ex 1 did their levels where almost every single style of play including not killing anything at all was viable to the end of the game?
Its an interesting notion. And to some extent fits with the ideas of TSW.
But I kind of don't see it happening. In fact most MMOs actively design against it.
Hm no. What I meant is, I want a MMO where I can use various playstyles, I want a game that adapts to my daily changing desires. TSW sound like devs plan how we play too much. At least it sounds so, because so often I hear TSW delopers say sentences like "We want the players to XYZ". I don't want to be pushed around. I don't want them to lead me like a pet dog. I want choices how I do things. If I read this boss mob gameplay in the dungeons, it sounds like the most preset design I can think of. There is exactly ONE way to beat them. I don't like being so narrowed down in my choices, so led around by some higher plan. Maybe I read too much into it, but so far it all sounds a lot like that.
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Elikal, how are you able to enjoy novels, music and movies? They are after all streamlined to follow one path without giving the audience any choice in how things go and are done.
I kinda don't see the issue. Books or movies have always been preset, passive consumation, while games are more about "what would I do"? Otherwise I don't really need a game, when it's just a sort of railroaded movie-type entertainent.
You complain game after game is on a railroad but still somehow your concept of games that are released are about "what would I do". You are off here and need to adjust to the real world. You are always to upset about these games but never seem to moderate your approach to them. HOW ABOUT DROPPING THE 'WHAT I WOULD DO" CONCEPT from your list of what games MUST BE.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
There is a difference between having multiple viable playstyles, and total freedom.
The biggest issue people had with Deus Ex 3 was the boss fights. The first limitation was that you could not avoid them. And then the way it was done.
You could avoid beeing seen for the entire game until then, maybe you didn't even skill hacking because you managed to find the passwords etc. scattered around. And then they put you into something aking to an arena.
And the boss doesn't play by the same rules as everyone else. Hiding? Even if you manage to find some cover, he will always know where you are. Stunning? Boss laughs in your face. Instant-melee kill? Sure, but the other way round, boss kills you if you get to close. And then some had special skills like invisibilty. And a lot of health.
And they put normal enemies into there, too, at least sometimes.
The contrast between the normal playstyle and the boss fights could hardly be more glaring.
The op is talking about exactly that.
He doesn't want a one-hit-kill spoon, but if they have mutliple skills, weapons etc, he wants each type viable. Why put in stealth skills if the enemy always knows where you are? Why allow us to raise armor and health if one hit always means death? Why put in different weapons, if only one ever is useful?
Similar with the quests: I actually prefer having some guidelines for quests, the feeling "it's important to do this (now) ". I can't decide which one i am going to do in Skyrim, there is no point in doing any of the dozens you acquired. And one the way to the quest location you acquire another ten, usually when i try to run from A to B i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to C, so i try to go to C, during which i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to D...so i end up in Z, or worse, in A, without having accomplished a thing.
But: I don't want to take quest A, travel to the other side of the world, listen to that one line the guy i was told to look for says and go back to the original quest giver, only to recieve a new quest that is exactly the same except the guy i have to speak to is someone else.
The third option would be to first take all available quests and plan a route. I don't want to have to do that, either.
I want to have as many quests as i want, only limited by where i can go and the order of the quests, you obviously can't rat someone out before you meet with him and he told you he is going to rob the bank etc, but why shouldn't i be able to look for the brother of the shopkeeper while meeting with the burglar?
If done right, you won't acquire several dozens of quests, because there aren't that many available at once, but you aren't limtied to just one, either.
I think, Bioware does that quite good usually. Better in the past, like with NWN, but still visible with todays Dragon Age and Mass Effect series.
You have one or two main quests, and several side quests you usually complete on your way to doing the main quest. You acquire quests in the current quest hub, but it isn't glaring obvious that this location is only here because they needed a quest hub.
The quests are usually somewhat nearby, you don't have to travel back all the way to where you starrted, and you won't keep them until the end if you don't want to, there are several interesting and different locations you will visit, speaking about quests hubs and nearby dungeons etc both.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
There is a difference between having multiple viable playstyles, and total freedom.
The biggest issue people had with Deus Ex 3 was the boss fights. The first limitation was that you could not avoid them. And then the way it was done.
You could avoid beeing seen for the entire game until then, maybe you didn't even skill hacking because you managed to find the passwords etc. scattered around. And then they put you into something aking to an arena.
And the boss doesn't play by the same rules as everyone else. Hiding? Even if you manage to find some cover, he will always know where you are. Stunning? Boss laughs in your face. Instant-melee kill? Sure, but the other way round, boss kills you if you get to close. And then some had special skills like invisibilty. And a lot of health.
And they put normal enemies into there, too, at least sometimes.
The contrast between the normal playstyle and the boss fights could hardly be more glaring.
The op is talking about exactly that.
He doesn't want a one-hit-kill spoon, but if they have mutliple skills, weapons etc, he wants each type viable. Why put in stealth skills if the enemy always knows where you are? Why allow us to raise armor and health if one hit always means death? Why put in different weapons, if only one ever is useful?
Similar with the quests: I actually prefer having some guidelines for quests, the feeling "it's important to do this (now) ". I can't decide which one i am going to do in Skyrim, there is no point in doing any of the dozens you acquired. And one the way to the quest location you acquire another ten, usually when i try to run from A to B i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to C, so i try to go to C, during which i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to D...so i end up in Z, or worse, in A, without having accomplished a thing.
But: I don't want to take quest A, travel to the other side of the world, listen to that one line the guy i was told to look for says and go back to the original quest giver, only to recieve a new quest that is exactly the same except the guy i have to speak to is someone else.
The third option would be to first take all available quests and plan a route. I don't want to have to do that, either.
I want to have as many quests as i want, only limited by where i can go and the order of the quests, you obviously can't rat someone out before you meet with him and he told you he is going to rob the bank etc, but why shouldn't i be able to look for the brother of the shopkeeper while meeting with the burglar?
If done right, you won't acquire several dozens of quests, because there aren't that many available at once, but you aren't limtied to just one, either.
I think, Bioware does that quite good usually. Better in the past, like with NWN, but still visible with todays Dragon Age and Mass Effect series.
You have one or two main quests, and several side quests you usually complete on your way to doing the main quest. You acquire quests in the current quest hub, but it isn't glaring obvious that this location is only here because they needed a quest hub.
The quests are usually somewhat nearby, you don't have to travel back all the way to where you starrted, and you won't keep them until the end if you don't want to, there are several interesting and different locations you will visit, speaking about quests hubs and nearby dungeons etc both.
well sure having a long list of quests to do is also my thing, keep the one I want to do now in highlights(mark with a tracer or something) and go doing it, maybe I can stack quests and so, secret world is a you do one quest at time no way around it, save for the let's say side quest (dice icon I think) with you can have several and most of tiem you find then on the fly, and the main one, with is the one your faction send you to do, also all quest you deliver its reports via cell, you can also repeat almost all quests after a day.
but I guess the way they did for quests is ok, the annoying part is the inventory, lack of a sort button and hotkeys for consumables. but we can't consider ME3 and DA2 since some quest have a timeline to be done (in da after each year not done it before the main quest you are done same with ME3, quest before a certain event not done, busted)
case to consider too is quest is still nothing new, at least in TSW they let's say mask it better, since it have lots of info, sidelines, but still is the gather thing deliver thing kill things.
One of the things that I am sorta cross with TSW is, how the developers want to "educate" people. Now, the English word is not exactly fitting, the German "erziehen" would be better, but there is not exact English equivalent. It containts more leading, upbringing or forming someone. And that's how I feel. Like some elder parents want to form me in a way to suit THEIR plan and ideal.
I have read the news here and on Massively about the dungeons, how difficult it is. With platform jumping and doing the right thing in the right order at the precisely right time. That's not playing a game, that's trainging a Pavlov Dog! Do this now, do that here. That's what I mean with a game forming/training/educating the players, and I don't like that. I always hear Funcom say "We want the players to do THIS, we want players to do THAT." I mean, BS! I want the game to adapt to ME, to allow ME to chose MY playstyle, and not forcing ME to adapt to the exact steps some dev has designed. That's not gameplay, thats a trained monkey who presses buttons as the doctor trained him.
Other example. They allowed only to have a very limited number of quests, because they, Funcom, don't want us, the players, to rush mindlessly through content. They lead us in their speed in their ways and methods. What if I don't want to be led by developers like that? What if I WANT to just take 20 quests and try them all? Where is my freedom to play the speed and dedecation I WANT?
Or this example. You are required to mix and match skill and try difficult combats over and over and over, until you find a combination of powers that works. This is enforced by the limited number of 7 you can only equip at one time. The player shall be forced to experiment and adapt his skill sets all the time, because there are only few combinations that work on certain bosses. What if I don't want that? If I just WANT to be a sword dude? Or a mage type? Why must I find out the one method to win the developers decided?
Sorry, but so far this all feels not like *I* have freedoms to chose, to sneak or call a healer or built a super tank and just smash the enemy, or do things quick or slow or ANYTHING. In all these things it's like training some monkey in a lab. I the player must find the one way the developers wanted. Flexibility: zero. That is what irks me about this game. It feels like someone is parenting me, someone is educating me, training me. I can't try and find alternative ways. I just can't stick to *my* vision of a char. Like just playing a Sword Fighter, period. Or trying to oursmart a boss. Or just overwhelm him. NOOO I need some jump, run and timing sequnce, exactly as the dev wants me to. That entire description of the dungeon just sounded SO bad to me. Monkey do that now, monky go here now, monkey press this button now.
Now sure, some people will love just that, and that's ok. But atm I can't for the world imagine this game concept can catch more that a really small niche beyond some first month curiosity. The more I read about it, the more elitarian and hook-nose-leading players it sounds. Hm. I hope we got to see the entire game in beta yet, so I can validate my impression better.
If you want to only play a "sword dude", or a "mage type", with no variation, there are plenty of other games that allow you to do that. Go play one of those. THis game was designed to give you more variety, not infinite freedom to do whateever you want. Why? Because, ultimately, the designers are responsible for the game being fun. If they allow you unlimited freedom, and you don't have fun, they still get blamed for allowing you too much freedom. All games have rules and restrictions. You have already been trained to play a certain way by other games. You will always have to adapt to the game. No successful game will ever allow you unlimited freedom. This game is trying to do things differently. If you don't like it, and just want to sword and board or play a mage, go play WoW, or some similar game. Though, I think your rant is more to just complain rather than because you want to do those things.
As for quest hubs, get over it. Again, there are plenty of games that let you pick up a bunch of quests and run out and do them. most people are sick of that. This game does it different. Adapt. It is about them trying to make the game more fun for the most people possible. If you need quest hubs with tons of quests, find another game. Quest hubs don't make the game more fun, they made the old boring quest style more tolerable, but they decided to do something different to avoid the quest grinding you are used to.
Diablo 3 has billions of builds for each class and once you get to the hardest difficulties, you must use only a few builds where a lot of skills are mandatory. This game doesn't have levels so it depends on the gear, if gear is strong then the instances will be easy with any build if not I'm sure there will be gimmick group makeups to down anything regardless of a strategy like 3 tank 2 healer or something. Some things will just be very strong compared to others.
Blizzard has released some stats about the "most common build" in Diablo 3. It's used by 0.7% of the players. That's excluding passives and just looking at skills/runes. I don't see why TSW should be any different due to mechanics. There is a balancing job to do, but once that gets taken care of I forsee hundreds of good builds.
Diablo 3 has billions of builds for each class and once you get to the hardest difficulties, you must use only a few builds where a lot of skills are mandatory. This game doesn't have levels so it depends on the gear, if gear is strong then the instances will be easy with any build if not I'm sure there will be gimmick group makeups to down anything regardless of a strategy like 3 tank 2 healer or something. Some things will just be very strong compared to others.
Blizzard has released some stats about the "most common build" in Diablo 3. It's used by 0.7% of the players. That's excluding passives and just looking at skills/runes. I don't see why TSW should be any different due to mechanics. There is a balancing job to do, but once that gets taken care of I forsee hundreds of good builds.
I have two toons in inferno, so I count double for the 1.7% of players in inferno and on both my monk and demon hunter I have 4 required abilities and runes, without them I can't procede in the game. When I play public games everyone uses the same build 4/6. There are a few choices for the other two skills, it just so happens there are two choices that beat all other choices for those two as well, and by a good margin. However, with how inferno is set up defense > offence so if you gimp your DPS it doesn't matter. I pick one max DPS skill for each and then a defensive DPS skill for each.
It is a magician's choice.
Most players arn't in inferno. Normal, nightmare, hell, and inferno act 1 are very easy where gear > all. Inferno act two is hard where gear + build is required.
EDIT- I agree about balancing, thing is it would need to be balanced often like starcrat post launch and that likely won't happen in either game. So resource intensive even though usually it is just changing values + or - to balance against other skills. In both games can get whatever skill so they should in theory all be equal, in practice some things are way to strong. Starcraft has synergy in builds that are balanced so it similar to TSW and D3.
Donta: You're talking out your arse. It's not a hub based game.
Oooo skate park, massive quest hub that with its TWO whole bleeding quests, same with other places like the ravens knock, the old girl with the yard sale, the hippie camp etc..
Now I could see how someone who hardly played it might think it a hub game, there are 9 quests at the police station. After that the most quests I have seen at one spot is 4 at the scrap yard.
It's not like wow / swtor with go hub a, pick up your shopping list if 10 quests, play the circles on the map, return to hub a, pick up your shopping list 2 of 8 quests, play the map again, return hub a, pick up 2 quests that send you to hub b.
Your better picking 1 quest, complete it, call back to base to hand in, look around where you are for another quest, take that let it lead you to a 3rd spot.
I don't know if the OP is serious or not. I'm guessing he is.
It's funny. Ya know I bought a can of coke yesterday. The product said to pull back tab to open. I'm really upset that they expect me to pull the tab to drink the soda. Instead I used a hacksaw and poured what was left of the contents on me. How dare Coca-Cola dictate to me (dictate is the word you're looking for OP btw) the intended process for drinking their product, as if I intended to drink the product in the first place.
Comments
And the factions mean nothing really......You end up doing the same quest lines no matter which one you pick once you leave their starting cities (which is not very long).....Too many people try to make TSW sound like rocket science when it really isnt that challenging at all.....Heck Dungeon Master 20 years ago had more difficult riddles to solve than this.
And the factions mean nothing really......You end up doing the same quest lines no matter which one you pick once you leave their starting cities (which is not very long).....Too many people try to make TSW sound like rocket science when it really isnt that challenging at all.....Heck Dungeon Master 20 years ago had more difficult riddles to solve than this.
Nahhhhh factions mean a lot. Maybe you should do some researchYou complain game after game is on a railroad but still somehow your concept of games that are released are about "what would I do". You are off here and need to adjust to the real world. You are always to upset about these games but never seem to moderate your approach to them. HOW ABOUT DROPPING THE 'WHAT I WOULD DO" CONCEPT from your list of what games MUST BE.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
There is a difference between having multiple viable playstyles, and total freedom.
The biggest issue people had with Deus Ex 3 was the boss fights. The first limitation was that you could not avoid them. And then the way it was done.
You could avoid beeing seen for the entire game until then, maybe you didn't even skill hacking because you managed to find the passwords etc. scattered around. And then they put you into something aking to an arena.
And the boss doesn't play by the same rules as everyone else. Hiding? Even if you manage to find some cover, he will always know where you are. Stunning? Boss laughs in your face. Instant-melee kill? Sure, but the other way round, boss kills you if you get to close. And then some had special skills like invisibilty. And a lot of health.
And they put normal enemies into there, too, at least sometimes.
The contrast between the normal playstyle and the boss fights could hardly be more glaring.
The op is talking about exactly that.
He doesn't want a one-hit-kill spoon, but if they have mutliple skills, weapons etc, he wants each type viable. Why put in stealth skills if the enemy always knows where you are? Why allow us to raise armor and health if one hit always means death? Why put in different weapons, if only one ever is useful?
Similar with the quests: I actually prefer having some guidelines for quests, the feeling "it's important to do this (now) ". I can't decide which one i am going to do in Skyrim, there is no point in doing any of the dozens you acquired. And one the way to the quest location you acquire another ten, usually when i try to run from A to B i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to C, so i try to go to C, during which i stumble upon a new quest that requires me to go to D...so i end up in Z, or worse, in A, without having accomplished a thing.
But: I don't want to take quest A, travel to the other side of the world, listen to that one line the guy i was told to look for says and go back to the original quest giver, only to recieve a new quest that is exactly the same except the guy i have to speak to is someone else.
The third option would be to first take all available quests and plan a route. I don't want to have to do that, either.
I want to have as many quests as i want, only limited by where i can go and the order of the quests, you obviously can't rat someone out before you meet with him and he told you he is going to rob the bank etc, but why shouldn't i be able to look for the brother of the shopkeeper while meeting with the burglar?
If done right, you won't acquire several dozens of quests, because there aren't that many available at once, but you aren't limtied to just one, either.
I think, Bioware does that quite good usually. Better in the past, like with NWN, but still visible with todays Dragon Age and Mass Effect series.
You have one or two main quests, and several side quests you usually complete on your way to doing the main quest. You acquire quests in the current quest hub, but it isn't glaring obvious that this location is only here because they needed a quest hub.
The quests are usually somewhat nearby, you don't have to travel back all the way to where you starrted, and you won't keep them until the end if you don't want to, there are several interesting and different locations you will visit, speaking about quests hubs and nearby dungeons etc both.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
well sure having a long list of quests to do is also my thing, keep the one I want to do now in highlights(mark with a tracer or something) and go doing it, maybe I can stack quests and so, secret world is a you do one quest at time no way around it, save for the let's say side quest (dice icon I think) with you can have several and most of tiem you find then on the fly, and the main one, with is the one your faction send you to do, also all quest you deliver its reports via cell, you can also repeat almost all quests after a day.
but I guess the way they did for quests is ok, the annoying part is the inventory, lack of a sort button and hotkeys for consumables. but we can't consider ME3 and DA2 since some quest have a timeline to be done (in da after each year not done it before the main quest you are done same with ME3, quest before a certain event not done, busted)
case to consider too is quest is still nothing new, at least in TSW they let's say mask it better, since it have lots of info, sidelines, but still is the gather thing deliver thing kill things.
If you want to only play a "sword dude", or a "mage type", with no variation, there are plenty of other games that allow you to do that. Go play one of those. THis game was designed to give you more variety, not infinite freedom to do whateever you want. Why? Because, ultimately, the designers are responsible for the game being fun. If they allow you unlimited freedom, and you don't have fun, they still get blamed for allowing you too much freedom. All games have rules and restrictions. You have already been trained to play a certain way by other games. You will always have to adapt to the game. No successful game will ever allow you unlimited freedom. This game is trying to do things differently. If you don't like it, and just want to sword and board or play a mage, go play WoW, or some similar game. Though, I think your rant is more to just complain rather than because you want to do those things.
As for quest hubs, get over it. Again, there are plenty of games that let you pick up a bunch of quests and run out and do them. most people are sick of that. This game does it different. Adapt. It is about them trying to make the game more fun for the most people possible. If you need quest hubs with tons of quests, find another game. Quest hubs don't make the game more fun, they made the old boring quest style more tolerable, but they decided to do something different to avoid the quest grinding you are used to.
Blizzard has released some stats about the "most common build" in Diablo 3. It's used by 0.7% of the players. That's excluding passives and just looking at skills/runes. I don't see why TSW should be any different due to mechanics. There is a balancing job to do, but once that gets taken care of I forsee hundreds of good builds.
I have two toons in inferno, so I count double for the 1.7% of players in inferno and on both my monk and demon hunter I have 4 required abilities and runes, without them I can't procede in the game. When I play public games everyone uses the same build 4/6. There are a few choices for the other two skills, it just so happens there are two choices that beat all other choices for those two as well, and by a good margin. However, with how inferno is set up defense > offence so if you gimp your DPS it doesn't matter. I pick one max DPS skill for each and then a defensive DPS skill for each.
It is a magician's choice.
Most players arn't in inferno. Normal, nightmare, hell, and inferno act 1 are very easy where gear > all. Inferno act two is hard where gear + build is required.
EDIT- I agree about balancing, thing is it would need to be balanced often like starcrat post launch and that likely won't happen in either game. So resource intensive even though usually it is just changing values + or - to balance against other skills. In both games can get whatever skill so they should in theory all be equal, in practice some things are way to strong. Starcraft has synergy in builds that are balanced so it similar to TSW and D3.
You're talking out your arse. It's not a hub based game.
Oooo skate park, massive quest hub that with its TWO whole bleeding quests, same with other places like the ravens knock, the old girl with the yard sale, the hippie camp etc..
Now I could see how someone who hardly played it might think it a hub game, there are 9 quests at the police station. After that the most quests I have seen at one spot is 4 at the scrap yard.
It's not like wow / swtor with go hub a, pick up your shopping list if 10 quests, play the circles on the map, return to hub a, pick up your shopping list 2 of 8 quests, play the map again, return hub a, pick up 2 quests that send you to hub b.
Your better picking 1 quest, complete it, call back to base to hand in, look around where you are for another quest, take that let it lead you to a 3rd spot.
I don't know if the OP is serious or not. I'm guessing he is.
It's funny. Ya know I bought a can of coke yesterday. The product said to pull back tab to open. I'm really upset that they expect me to pull the tab to drink the soda. Instead I used a hacksaw and poured what was left of the contents on me. How dare Coca-Cola dictate to me (dictate is the word you're looking for OP btw) the intended process for drinking their product, as if I intended to drink the product in the first place.
I'm trying to understand the very first responce to the OP.
Isn't the entire game built around questing?
Yes. I took the first response to mean that all games have restrictions - even sandbox games. But I could be wrong.
TSW is very much a Themepark game. It has very minor sandbox elements.
Talk about a moment of genius stupidity on my part.
That responce makes a lot of sense now.
I'll crawl back into my hole now.