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Perfect World Disappoints | STOked 124

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  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    In game Dilithium isn't money.  It is possible to create foundary missions by buying slots to create foundary missions with Dilithium.  Therefore, Cryptic isn't forcing you to pay money to create your own content, just making it an alternative option to playing numerous missions to gather enough Dilithium to make your own content.



    Your argument has been tried before and fortunately, most are able to see through the snakeoil sale.

    Sure, you can farm Dilithium for a few weeks/months (depending on playstyle) to buy a Foundry slot, or you can plunk down the cash and get the slot immediately. Which do you think Cryptic encourages?

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

     


     

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    In game Dilithium isn't money.  It is possible to create foundary missions by buying slots to create foundary missions with Dilithium.  Therefore, Cryptic isn't forcing you to pay money to create your own content, just making it an alternative option to playing numerous missions to gather enough Dilithium to make your own content.


     


    Your argument has been tried before and fortunately, most are able to see through the snakeoil sale.

    Sure, you can farm Dilithium for a few weeks/months (depending on playstyle) to buy a Foundry slot, or you can plunk down the cash and get the slot immediately. Which do you think Cryptic encourages?

     

    Snakeoil sale is the sale of anything that is claimed to be a veritable panacea that does none of the things the salesman claims it does.  Since Dilithium actually is used to do all the thing Cryptic says it does, it is not snakeoil (anyone who thinks that it is snakeoil either doesn't know what snakeoil is, or is intentionally ignoring the facts in order to vilify Cryptic/PWE).  All Dilithium is is an in game currency that allows people to buy stuff they don't want to spend money on.  Sure, there still is a cash shop, and there are many things in said shop that you can't buy in the Dilithium store, but the fact that you can buy the foundary slots in the Dilithium store speaks for itself.

    Now, which method do I think Cryptic encourages?  Well, if they wanted to make it so that only paying players could make foundary missions, then they wouldn't put foundary slots in the Dilithium store, now wouldn't they?

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Member UncommonPosts: 823

    Disingenous arguements meant to hide his embarassment at defending Cryptic. Yes , i can grind dilitium until my eyes bleed so i can get a slot so i can create content for Cyptic. Just as Cryptic claims everything is obtainable by grinding, whatever new in game currency they throw out there. I've lost count of how many different currencies are in game now.   Just like you'll be able to obtain fleet bases by grinding. Either way they'll make it so you'll  need to purchase the bank slots , to stow this crap. The purpose and design , rightly so is about generating capital. While youy may consider it , no big deal to grind the currency.  It is by design, made prohibitively difficult, to ensure capitial is generated, just like the lockboxes etc. 

    image
  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    Disingenous arguements meant to hide his embarassment at defending Cryptic. Yes , i can grind dilitium until my eyes bleed so i can get a slot so i can create content for Cyptic. Just as Cryptic claims everything is obtainable by grinding, whatever new in game currency they throw out there. I've lost count of how many different currencies are in game now.   Just like you'll be able to obtain fleet bases by grinding. Either way they'll make it so you'll  need to purchase the bank slots , to stow this crap. The purpose and design , rightly so is about generating capital. While youy may consider it , no big deal to grind the currency.  It is by design, made prohibitively difficult, to ensure capitial is generated, just like the lockboxes etc. 

     

    You just said four posts ago that only paying customers can use UGC, implying that only they can make and play UGC.

    The post after that, you denied implying that only paying customers can use UGC, and that only they can make them.

    Now, you admit that it is possible for non paying customers to make UGC, even if it does take a long time.

     

    You have been the only one making disingenuous arguments here, as you change your story with basically every post you make.  If you are going to make up information and use that as "proof" to back up your claim, at least stick with it, instead of disregarding your previous posts and pretending you never said them.

    Also, on a side note:

    1.  Everyone hates lockboxes, including me, so don't use that in your argument.

    2.  It is possible to buy stuff in the cash shop without spending any of your money if you fill out surveys, watch videos, etc to earn zen.  This is yet another alternative to actually spending money, this time organized not by Cryptic, but by PWE.  Have fun watching your preconceived notions about the company crumble around you now that you know this.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Now, which method do I think Cryptic encourages?  Well, if they wanted to make it so that only paying players could make foundary missions, then they wouldn't put foundary slots in the Dilithium store, now wouldn't they?



    Were Cryptic to make it where it took all of 5 minutes of gameplay to earn enough dilithium to buy something in the store such as a UGC slot, they would not make any money as everyone would grind dilithium.


    The level of effort/time required to grind out enough dilithium for the items you want is purposely designed to be overly time prohibitive as to entice you to spend the cash instead.


    There is no reason for any of us here to try and vilify Cryptic. Cryptic themselves do a good enough job of that on their own.


  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

     


     

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Now, which method do I think Cryptic encourages?  Well, if they wanted to make it so that only paying players could make foundary missions, then they wouldn't put foundary slots in the Dilithium store, now wouldn't they?


     


    Were Cryptic to make it where it took all of 5 minutes of gameplay to earn enough dilithium to buy something in the store such as a UGC slot, they would not make any money as everyone would grind dilithium.


    The level of effort/time required to grind out enough dilithium for the items you want is purposely designed to be overly time prohibitive as to entice you to spend the cash instead.


    There is no reason for any of us here to try and vilify Cryptic. Cryptic themselves do a good enough job of that on their own.

     

    And yet there are items that are available through the dilithium store (and the questionite store in CO) and not in the cash shop.

    Dilithium and Questionite and their stores are similar to reputation and reputation vendors in other games (especially WoW).  You have to grind reputation in order to get the rewards, just like you have to grind dilithium/questionite, yet in those other games, there is no cash shop to gain the items the reputation vendors sell, and you have to buy a subscription in order to play the game in order to grind reputation.

    I am sorry, but you are vilifying Cryptic for something you simply don't understand [mod edit].

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    I am sorry, but you are vilifying Cryptic for something you simply don't understand (and quite frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself for doing so).


     


    I understand it quite well, thanks. The intent is to get you to part with your cash, plain and simple.


    As I said before, there is no reason to even try to villify Cryptic. They villify themselves on their own quite well.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

     The intent is to get you to part with your cash, plain and simple.

    The fact that they give you alternatives to spending actual cash derails your entire argument.

    Some stuff can't be bought with money, and everything can be bought without money, so long as you put in the time and effort, just like many subscription MMOs.

    I don't see how you can't see this. [mod edit]

    You are vilifying PWE/Cryptic for something that doesn't even exist, no matter how much you deny it.  [mod edit]

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290

     


     

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    The fact that they give you alternatives to spending actual cash derails your entire argument.


     

     


    No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science.


    [mod edit]

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

    No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science.


    [mod edit]

    That has got to be the WORST analogy in the history of analogies.  Seriously, not only is it a gross overexageration, but do you even realize what could happen to a person if they actually DID what you described?  Seriously, why would you say something like that?  [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290

     



    Originally posted by MadDemon64
    [mod edit]

     

     


    Actually, no it did not. The cash shop is there for no other purpose othern than to make cash. Period. Items from the store that are available through "grinding" are priced in such a way as to make it more convenient to spend the cash instead of the time. Cryptic/PWE are banking on the bet that players would rather spend the funds right now than grind for months on end.


    And I'll reply to any posts I like, thanks.

  • CacaphonyCacaphony Member Posts: 738


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by ShardWarrior No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science. Hey, if you are dumb enough to spend a month or more grinding enough dilitihium to buy 1 ship for 1 character instead of buying it in the C-Store and unlocking it for all your characters, more power to you.
    That has got to be the WORST analogy in the history of analogies.  Seriously, not only is it a gross overexageration, but do you even realize what could happen to a person if they actually DID what you described?  Seriously, why would you say something like that?  All it did was prove how out of touch you are with the reality of how the cash shop works.

    Please, do not respond to this post.  You have already proven how wrong you are, and in such a morbid way.  I really think you need an intervention if you think such analogies are not only relevent, but acceptable.



    Despite his "hit yourself on the head with a hammer" analogy (which there was nothing wrong with by the way), his point stands. I suggest you look past the simple analogy and try to understand the point of the message.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,639
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    [mod edit]

    Calling someone a troll is out of line.  You've crossed a line from not liking his argument which you admit is right, to attacking his character.  That doesn't say much for the weight of your argument.

    I can't believe this is even an argument.  If you play the game a lot and want to grind some things you can.  If you don't want to grind or you're an instant-gratification type then you can buy it.  If you're a paying member they throw you a bone and provide extra stuff.

    I'm not sure what the gripe is.

     

    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    I don´t see how all this is PWEs fault, Cryptic already started on this journey long before they got bought up.

    And I have a feeling that PWE is putting all of their pressure on Cryptic for their Forgotten realms IP, where they actually did a lot of changes a month or so after Cryptic got bought up.

    PWE is far from the best publisher but it ain´t the worst either.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by Cacaphony

     


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by ShardWarrior No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science. [mod edit]

    That has got to be the WORST analogy in the history of analogies.  Seriously, not only is it a gross overexageration, but do you even realize what could happen to a person if they actually DID what you described? [mod edit]
    [mod edit]

     


    Despite his "hit yourself on the head with a hammer" analogy (which there was nothing wrong with by the way), his point stands. I suggest you look past the simple analogy and try to understand the point of the message.

    The point of his message is that he claims that Cryptic/PWE set up the Dilithium store in STO and Questionite store in CO as grindy and make people prefer to buy the stuff that is in the Dilithium/Questionite stores in the cash shop with real money instead of with Dilithium/Questionite.  

    My point is that the major flaw in his argument, the flaw the makes his point pretty much invalid, is that there is stuff in the Dilithium/Questionite stores, stuff that makes up the majority, if not the entirety, of the Dilithium/Questionite stores, that isn't available in the cash shop, stuff that can only be bought with Dilithium/Questionite, as well as the fact that I have not seen much of anything in the cash shop that is available in the Dilithium/Questionite stores.  His argument hinges on the (false) presumption that the grind to buy stuff in the Dilithium/Questionite can be circumvented with the cash shop, but anyone who looks at the Dilithium/Questionite stores and the cash shop can tell you that they are pretty much seperate entities, and one cannot be used as a shortcut for the other, with the exception of the Dilithium store offering Cryptic points for use in the cash shop.

    Now you see why he is wrong.  Yes, the Dilithium/Questionite stores are grindy, nobody is disputing that, and yes, Cryptic does want you to spend money in the cash shop, but that isn't the point here.  The point is that the grind for the Dilithium/Questionite stores is NOT meant to make players prefer to use the cash shop, but instead give players an alternative to actually spending money in the cash shop, to actually let them buy stuff that would normally be in the cash shop (or stuff that actually is in the cash shop) without actually spending any money.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    [mod edit]

    I have not paid Cryptic anything, nor have I ever paid PWE anything.  I have used the cash shops in their games only after earning zen through surveys and videos.

    I will repeat myself; I don't buy zen I earn it.  A hypocrite I am not, so stop with the character assassinations, it only makes you look like a desperate person who has so little faith in their position, they would rather win an argument by way of an argumentum ad hominem instead of using their actual position and the facts associated with it (and no that was not a character assination or an argumentum ad hominem itself).

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Member UncommonPosts: 823

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMIlKK6p24

      People can decide for themselves.

    image
  • raistlinmraistlinm Member Posts: 673
    Originally posted by ktanner3

    The people that are at fault are Cryptic themselves. They are the ones that said they could push out a Star Trek MMO with only a few years of development time. No amount of candy coating is going to change that.

    As I'm sure I'm not the only one to state this is the fact of the matter where STO is concerned, everyone seems to gloss over this fact.  Cryptic sold that this is what they could do so how do we then blame Atari or anyone else for holding them to their word.

    In my estimation cryptic caught lightning in a bottle with COH and ran with it because CO and STO both hit closer to the reality of what Cryptic does.

    They release horribly shallow games while being at a loss to understand what has value in this market which is evident by the charging of sub fees while almost all development went into C store additions.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by Grummelig
    [mod edit]

    1.  Actually, I am correct, and seriously what is with this "CDF" stuff?  Where did it come from, and doesn't that also count as character assassination?

    2.  Actually, I checked the cash shop.  I did not see them anywhere in the store, so either: a.  I missed them, b.  You are lying, c. they were temporarily unavailable, or d. you weren't looking in the right spot.  Seeing as how I just found a forum post (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=250712) on the sto website that you have to buy them with dilithium on the character select page (there is a tab that lets you either play the game our enter the foundary), I think d. is the most likely of the choices.

    3.  Cryptic points and dilithium are digital goods.  Digital goods were not produced by machine or hard labor or anything, so there are no tooling or production costs associated with them.  They can be produced with minimal effort, if any effor at all, so their value is pretty minimal as well, if not zero.  Since it doesn't really cost money to make them, getting cryptic points from the dilithium store does not mean that you are getting "recycled" cryptic points that someone else paid for, unlike the dollar bills in your wallet. *Edit* I might be wrong about this, but still, they are digital goods, so stop putting so much value on them.

    Also, for everyone complaining about the cost of stuff in the Dilithium store, foundary slots are, according to the same forum post, 7000 Dilithium.  After completing one Dilithium quest and linking my accounts, I have over 6000 Dilithium.  Super expensive Dilithium store that forces you to grind so much that you would prefer to use the cash shop my a**.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • CacaphonyCacaphony Member Posts: 738

     


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by Cacaphony  

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by ShardWarrior No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science.[mod edit]

    That has got to be the WORST analogy in the history of analogies.  Seriously, not only is it a gross overexageration, but do you even realize what could happen to a person if they actually DID what you described?  [mod edit]
      Despite his "hit yourself on the head with a hammer" analogy (which there was nothing wrong with by the way), his point stands. I suggest you look past the simple analogy and try to understand the point of the message.

     

    Now you see why he is wrong.


     

     

    I'm sorry, but he isn't wrong. You just want him to be wrong, and are saying whatever you can to make it seem like that.

  • CacaphonyCacaphony Member Posts: 738


    Originally posted by AG-Vuk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMIlKK6p24

      People can decide for themselves.



    Thank you for the link, Vuk. It is a good explanation of how the dilithium / CP market works. Of course, the CP's will be going to the wayside soon in favor of zen.

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by Cacaphony

     


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by Cacaphony  

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    Originally posted by ShardWarrior No, it does not. To put it in more simple terms for you, would you rather hit yourself in the head with a hammer repeatedly for a month to get an item from the Cash Shop for free or would you rather plunk down cash for it and avoid the hammer? The game is F2P, which means Cryptic/PWE will push cash shop sales to fund the game. This is not rocket science. [mod edit]
    That has got to be the WORST analogy in the history of analogies.  Seriously, not only is it a gross overexageration, but do you even realize what could happen to a person if they actually DID what you described?  [mod edit]
      Despite his "hit yourself on the head with a hammer" analogy (which there was nothing wrong with by the way), his point stands. I suggest you look past the simple analogy and try to understand the point of the message.

     

    Now you see why he is wrong.


     

     

    I'm sorry, but he isn't wrong. You just want him to be wrong, and are saying whatever you can to make it seem like that.

    I am sorry that you can't see why he is wrong, but he is.  He hasn't given a shred of evidence to back his claim.  He has only given analogies and "personal experiences" that lead to overexaggerations.  Not one of his posts has any information that is backed by information from the official Star Trek Online website.  The closest he comes to including such information is is "examinations" of how Cryptic wants the game's economy to work.  AG-Vuk, despite his antagonistic posts littered with argumentum ad hominem, has actually done a better job of defending his position by posting a link to a video about an analysis of the economy of STO with the Dilithium store (I will judge that video in due time and determine whether or not it does back AG-Vuk's position and by how much).  ShardWarrior has done none of this, so how you can think that he is correct when he has yet to post anything that can back up his claims is beyond me.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • ShardWarriorShardWarrior Member Posts: 290


    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    I am sorry that you can't see why he is wrong, but he is.  He hasn't given a shred of evidence to back his claim.


     


    Yes, I have. You have just chosen to ignore it and/or keep missing the point overall.


    As another example for you... let us say you want to buy the Odyssey pack in the C-Store for 4,000 CP. What will take less time to unlock this pack?


    1. Grinding dilithium (which has a daily cap), then converting the dilithium to CP and buying the ship, then rinse/repeat for your next character?

    2. Plunking down the cash for 5,000 CP or more and buying it right now with no wait?


    Which method do you believe Cryptic wants you to use given STO is a F2P game and the cash shop is what is making the money for them?

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by ShardWarrior

     


     

    Originally posted by MadDemon64

    I am sorry that you can't see why he is wrong, but he is.  He hasn't given a shred of evidence to back his claim.


     

     


    Yes, I have. You have just chosen to ignore it and/or keep missing the point overall.


    As another example for you... let us say you want to buy the Odyssey pack in the C-Store for 4,000 CP. What will take less time to unlock this pack?


    1. Grinding dilithium (which has a daily cap), then converting the dilithium to CP and buying the ship, then rinse/repeat for your next character?

    2. Plunking down the cash for 5,000 CP or more and buying it right now with no wait?


    Which method do you believe Cryptic wants you to use given STO is a F2P game and the cash shop is what is making the money for them?

     

    I have not ignored evidence, you have not given it.  All you give is question after question.

    "If the price of some cash shop item is x, do you think it is easier to buy it with money or grind dilithium?"

    "Is it a better idea to pay money for a species or [mod edit] and get the species?"

    These are not evidence, just loaded questions that are designed to make either make either you seem correct or make the replier seem like an idiot with no middle ground.  I need evidence, as in PROOF that Cryptic would prefer people to buy stuff in the cash shop rather than use the Dilithium store.  Give me a quote from one of them saying that they prefer this [mod edit].

    If you cannot provide any of this, or similar information, then you do not have proof, merely opinions.

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

  • MadDemon64MadDemon64 Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Originally posted by Zekiah

    [mod edit]

    Wow, I had absolutely no idea that innovative space combat and relatively deep character customization took a backseat to casino boxes that can easily be discarded or ignored, or opened infrequently by people who decide to buy keys with zen earned by surveys and watching videos on the PWE site or traded for Dilithium.

    Seriously, those casino boxes are not something that deserve your complaints or attention.  [mod edit]

    Since when is Tuesday a direction?

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