Ok let me throw some facts here and logic because this site is so biased they don't post actual news this site is worse then cnn or fox combined atleast you know who pays there bills.
#1 Developing an MMO requires way more employees then it does to maintain and make new content for.
Why ? Say you have 10 Programmers who're swamped and getting behind so you hire 5 more. A year into the full blown development you need more coders because the ones you got now are assigned to specific areas well you hire 5 more.
This is an example of how it works and how a development team becomes way bigger then what you need after a game is released this happens in every area from programming/art/marketing/game design etc you always over hire because it gets stuff done faster and you know when the game is out you can let these people go it is the very nature of the business everyone does it.
Starwars cost over 200 mil to develop and you can bet they have a lot of people doing the same jobs.
ugh, please just give me dragon age 3 before you completely implode, Bioware. The world of gaming is going to get a lot dimmer without them around. You never know how good a company is until their next game is in your hands. It's clear blizzard has changed, who knows if Bethesda's next project will have the same quality. You just never know.
ugh, please just give me dragon age 3 before you completely implode, Bioware. The world of gaming is going to get a lot dimmer without them around. You never know how good a company is until their next game is in your hands. It's clear blizzard has changed, who knows if Bethesda's next project will have the same quality. You just never know.
It's a scary time.
After DA2, do you really want to see what kind of simplified garbage they slap a "3" on?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
It really depends on how big the layoffs were. Many MMOs do fire some people after they launch but one would expect a company like Bioware to move the people to another project, like DA3 or something.
I wont call the game a failure, at least not now but things could be better for Bioware. Those predicted 2 million players at the end of the year seems further and further away.
On the other hand do the game still have over a million players 6 months after launch so if EA is dissapointed it is because they had too high expectations. Anyone else beside Blizzard would be really happy for those numbers.
Return Of Investment. They need big numbers to pay the big bills and then some. Time will tell if they ever manage to break even or not. I very much doubt it.
ugh, please just give me dragon age 3 before you completely implode, Bioware. The world of gaming is going to get a lot dimmer without them around. You never know how good a company is until their next game is in your hands. It's clear blizzard has changed, who knows if Bethesda's next project will have the same quality. You just never know.
It's a scary time.
After DA2, do you really want to see what kind of simplified garbage they slap a "3" on?
Probably going to be an FPS using the Frostbite engine. Instead of conversation and morality choices, you're going to have quick time events.
No, it is normal for all MMO developers. The only time a company will not reduce their staff after they launch is if they have them go to other projects. All this really tells us is that TOR doesn't have 3 million subscribers (something we knew) and that Bioware is not planning on launching another MMO in the future (something we knew)
The guy who did the coding for entering your single player instance isn't needed any more. The guys who set up the account billing aren't needed anymore, etc etc.
Blizzard decreased their size of their WoW team following the launch of the game.... it didn't seem to hurt their growth in subscriptions much.
At least now that BioWare staff are getting sh*tcanned, rumors of "what went wrong" and "what really happened" will keep MMO sites on fire for the next few months!
Funny considering back when EA aquired bioware and this swtor project kicked off it was clearly stated by both parties this was just a partnership and bioware would retain full decision making ability.
One of these days companies will learn never get in bed with EA
That was no shock, the only surprise was it did not occur prior to this. The game is bleeding subs, they are going to have to work to keep their supposed 500k sub base to remain profitable.
Isn't this how it always goes... fire the little guy who's doing his job following orders lest he be fired while allowing the higher ups who are actually responsible for 'bad decisions' to keep their 'big pay' and move on to wreak newer titles?
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
EA "Hey! Take your awfully popular MMO and make it just like WoW! ...that ought to sell well!"
*Origin does that and their game is next to dead year later*
*EA fires half of Origin staff*
*EA buys Mythic*
EA "Hey! Licence awfully popular game trademark and make it just like WoW!"
*Mythic does that and their game flops*
*EA fires most of Mythic employees*
*EA buys Bioware*
EA: "Hey! Take your awfully popular game brands and give them Activision treatment by giving them lots of shiny and movie effects but ditch the gameplay! Oh...and make your MMO just like wow!"
*Bioware does that, makes Dragon Age 2 that has 1 city and few variations of same map and ME3 thats 80% of cutscenes and 20% of ME2 gameplay with plot that makes absolutely no sense...oh and SWTOR thats just like wow!*
*Bioware Fails big time*
Actually EA owned Origin throught the development of UO or at least the vast majority of it. EA bought out Origin in 1992 UO was released in 1997. Otherwise fairly spot on.
Isn't this how it always goes... fire the little guy who's doing his job following orders lest he be fired while allowing the higher ups who are actually responsible for 'bad decisions' to keep their 'big pay' and move on to wreak newer titles?
Yeah, that's the sad thing about it all.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Contrary to popular belief, layoffs of the dev team some months after an MMO is released IS normal. Has happened in about every MMO that I have ever played. It is also a chance for the company to make other "adjustments" in management. In the case of SWTOR, Steven Ried was let go and I assume that other may or may not have been as well. Also, there are currently no actual NUMBERs to suggest that too many have been let go or that it is abnormal. If BW/EA says they laid off 90% of their staff, they it would be something to worry about. If it is more like the normal trend you see at post launch, then there is really nothing to even worry about.
With that said, that does not mean that SWTOR is "sinking" as some have suggested. It means that the dev team has been pared down to a more managable and cost effective size. It means the the need of polish and content can be handled by a smaller crew. Whether that will mean continuous content of an acceptable quality will yet to be seen.
Frankly, I will take a wait and see approach and not be the "reacationary" in the room.
"Businesses used to be like Christianity; if you were faithful and obedient, you could obtain bliss in the afterlife of retirement. Now its more of a reincarnation model. If a worker learns enough in his current job, he can progress to a higher level of employment elsewhere."
- Dogbert
Tougher to come up with more truth and lols than that.
It really depends on how big the layoffs were. Many MMOs do fire some people after they launch but one would expect a company like Bioware to move the people to another project, like DA3 or something.
I wont call the game a failure, at least not now but things could be better for Bioware. Those predicted 2 million players at the end of the year seems further and further away.
On the other hand do the game still have over a million players 6 months after launch so if EA is dissapointed it is because they had too high expectations. Anyone else beside Blizzard would be really happy for those numbers.
Anyone else didn't spend over 200 million, have the largest MMO marketing campaign since WoW, and with the IP that had one of the most rabid (but also hyper-critical) fanbases around. Even by the "official" numbers of 1.3, that's a pretty crappy ROI, and still highly unlikely they are breaking even.
So if you spent RIFT's budget and had over a mill 6 months after launch, you'd be very happy. If you were an even smaller company who managed to keep a mill after 6 months, you'd be creaming your pants. yet if you spent over 200 mill, tying up that capital for 7 years? Yeah, not so much.
Contrary to popular belief, layoffs of the dev team some months after an MMO is released IS normal. Has happened in about every MMO that I have ever played. It is also a chance for the company to make other "adjustments" in management. In the case of SWTOR, Steven Ried was let go and I assume that other may or may not have been as well. Also, there are currently no actual NUMBERs to suggest that too many have been let go or that it is abnormal. If BW/EA says they laid off 90% of their staff, they it would be something to worry about. If it is more like the normal trend you see at post launch, then there is really nothing to even worry about.
With that said, that does not mean that SWTOR is "sinking" as some have suggested. It means that the dev team has been pared down to a more managable and cost effective size. It means the the need of polish and content can be handled by a smaller crew. Whether that will mean continuous content of an acceptable quality will yet to be seen.
Frankly, I will take a wait and see approach and not be the "reacationary" in the room.
Layoffs of devs are normal for MMOs that made their own engine(SWTOR didn't) but they are also normal for all the fail clones since wow.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
WoW, most successfull MMO currently,had layoffs as well not long time ago.
Anyone reading too much into this, has an axe to grind with EA/Mythic, nothing else.
That being said, pre- and post-launch teams are just different beasts.
Except it was acknowledged that WoW has lost quite a bit of subs recently. That an 8 year old MMO is now just finally going through layoffs is, well, damn remarkable. Comparing an 8 year old MMO with a 6 month old one, well, that's just damn hillarious.
Originally posted by ShakyMo This is what happens when you deal with the devil. Origin, bullfrog, maxis, westwood, mythic & now bioware.
Hopefully devs will learn not to sell out to ea.
Which devil? Lucasarts is the devil. I don't have the quote but it was said that they take 40% of the profit of SWTOR. No wonder it is not in the top three of EAs most profitable games! I watched 3 paper rpg companies go broke on the Star Wars franchise so I am not surprised that EA/Bioware had profit problems as well. I don't completely blame LA. The over-emphasis on story and the fact it was THEIR story not mine was what made me quit after a three month sub. I too am sorry for the laid off devs (I have been in that position twice myself) especially in these difficult times.
Some people forget, but after making KOTOR, the founders of Bioware said they never wanted to work with LA again because of their business practices. So you had Obsidian do KOTOR2, and almost the entire list of problems with that game could be laid at the feet of Lucasarts. The game wasn't ready, but LA demanded it be released.
Now I know the potential of millions of dollars can mend broken relationships, but they really should've thought long and hard before getting back into bed with LA. This happened before the EA buyout. Put both together (two companies with the worst of reputations in PC gamingland) and it was just bound to unravel.
Ok so how are they going to cope with that engine with even less people working on the game? They need to call in the National Guard and start bringing in hobos to get more hands on that code!
It's taking them forever just to do stuff that other games have as basic features.
Ok so how are they going to cope with that engine with even less people working on the game? They need to call in the National Guard and start bringing in hobos to get more hands on that code!
It's taking them forever just to do stuff that other games have as basic features.
They just gimped the moped!
It really depends on who is getting let go.
I'm not defending SWTOR, it is a mediocre game at best with little incentive to keep people subbed, but these comments of - this isn't normal it is the sign of the games apocalypse are just silly.
Someone mentioned the EVE has only grown since its development, but they negelcted to mention that the company that developed it was tiny, Bioware is not, it has several branches in different locatons and countries. You can't just shift someone from Austin to Montreal, Edmonton, Fairfax or Galway.
Given the economy in the state it is in, and the fact that they are having retentions issues, this is no surprise, but it is unlikely the sign of SWTOR's undoing. It will never be a WoW killer, but if you've ever read my comments on the subject you'll see that I don't believe there is such a thing, WoW was the MMO anomaly and no game will ever achieve what it did, for better or worse. I would imagine in box sales alone SWTOR made ROI, and I imagine it is still a healthy functioning game (business-wise)from the subs, even if they never hit 1 mil. Look at SWG and how long it survied after it was gutted. Star Wars fan empitomize the "Shut up and take my money" meme.
I'm telling you, they seem to be held hostage by the technology. What other explanation is there for why SWTOR is anemic on most levels? Lazy employees?
Comments
Ok let me throw some facts here and logic because this site is so biased they don't post actual news this site is worse then cnn or fox combined atleast you know who pays there bills.
#1 Developing an MMO requires way more employees then it does to maintain and make new content for.
Why ? Say you have 10 Programmers who're swamped and getting behind so you hire 5 more. A year into the full blown development you need more coders because the ones you got now are assigned to specific areas well you hire 5 more.
This is an example of how it works and how a development team becomes way bigger then what you need after a game is released this happens in every area from programming/art/marketing/game design etc you always over hire because it gets stuff done faster and you know when the game is out you can let these people go it is the very nature of the business everyone does it.
Starwars cost over 200 mil to develop and you can bet they have a lot of people doing the same jobs.
Yes, it's perfectly normal for a game with a finite life-span.
However, games such as Eve Online are built on each year. As a result CCP recruits more staff every year.
ugh, please just give me dragon age 3 before you completely implode, Bioware. The world of gaming is going to get a lot dimmer without them around. You never know how good a company is until their next game is in your hands. It's clear blizzard has changed, who knows if Bethesda's next project will have the same quality. You just never know.
It's a scary time.
After DA2, do you really want to see what kind of simplified garbage they slap a "3" on?
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Return Of Investment. They need big numbers to pay the big bills and then some. Time will tell if they ever manage to break even or not. I very much doubt it.
Always sad to hear about people losing their jobs especially during these difficult economic times.
Every mmo lays people off after launch, it means nothing by itself.
As to whether or not TOR will survive or even prosper, I have no idea not being privy to their finances.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Probably going to be an FPS using the Frostbite engine. Instead of conversation and morality choices, you're going to have quick time events.
No, it is normal for all MMO developers. The only time a company will not reduce their staff after they launch is if they have them go to other projects. All this really tells us is that TOR doesn't have 3 million subscribers (something we knew) and that Bioware is not planning on launching another MMO in the future (something we knew)
The guy who did the coding for entering your single player instance isn't needed any more. The guys who set up the account billing aren't needed anymore, etc etc.
Blizzard decreased their size of their WoW team following the launch of the game.... it didn't seem to hurt their growth in subscriptions much.
At least now that BioWare staff are getting sh*tcanned, rumors of "what went wrong" and "what really happened" will keep MMO sites on fire for the next few months!
Funny considering back when EA aquired bioware and this swtor project kicked off it was clearly stated by both parties this was just a partnership and bioware would retain full decision making ability.
One of these days companies will learn never get in bed with EA
That was no shock, the only surprise was it did not occur prior to this. The game is bleeding subs, they are going to have to work to keep their supposed 500k sub base to remain profitable.
Isn't this how it always goes... fire the little guy who's doing his job following orders lest he be fired while allowing the higher ups who are actually responsible for 'bad decisions' to keep their 'big pay' and move on to wreak newer titles?
We really need separate forums for every newly launched game. There can be the anti-<MMO> one and there can be the 'what general discussion should be' one. All the lamenting can happen together where each can find solace in like minded can't-move-on-ers leaving the rest of us to actually move forward and discuss meaningful and relevant topics.
Actually EA owned Origin throught the development of UO or at least the vast majority of it. EA bought out Origin in 1992 UO was released in 1997. Otherwise fairly spot on.
Yeah, that's the sad thing about it all.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Contrary to popular belief, layoffs of the dev team some months after an MMO is released IS normal. Has happened in about every MMO that I have ever played. It is also a chance for the company to make other "adjustments" in management. In the case of SWTOR, Steven Ried was let go and I assume that other may or may not have been as well. Also, there are currently no actual NUMBERs to suggest that too many have been let go or that it is abnormal. If BW/EA says they laid off 90% of their staff, they it would be something to worry about. If it is more like the normal trend you see at post launch, then there is really nothing to even worry about.
With that said, that does not mean that SWTOR is "sinking" as some have suggested. It means that the dev team has been pared down to a more managable and cost effective size. It means the the need of polish and content can be handled by a smaller crew. Whether that will mean continuous content of an acceptable quality will yet to be seen.
Frankly, I will take a wait and see approach and not be the "reacationary" in the room.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Tougher to come up with more truth and lols than that.
Anyone else didn't spend over 200 million, have the largest MMO marketing campaign since WoW, and with the IP that had one of the most rabid (but also hyper-critical) fanbases around. Even by the "official" numbers of 1.3, that's a pretty crappy ROI, and still highly unlikely they are breaking even.
So if you spent RIFT's budget and had over a mill 6 months after launch, you'd be very happy. If you were an even smaller company who managed to keep a mill after 6 months, you'd be creaming your pants. yet if you spent over 200 mill, tying up that capital for 7 years? Yeah, not so much.
From a business standpoint, it is a failure.
Layoffs of devs are normal for MMOs that made their own engine(SWTOR didn't) but they are also normal for all the fail clones since wow.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Except it was acknowledged that WoW has lost quite a bit of subs recently. That an 8 year old MMO is now just finally going through layoffs is, well, damn remarkable. Comparing an 8 year old MMO with a 6 month old one, well, that's just damn hillarious.
Some people forget, but after making KOTOR, the founders of Bioware said they never wanted to work with LA again because of their business practices. So you had Obsidian do KOTOR2, and almost the entire list of problems with that game could be laid at the feet of Lucasarts. The game wasn't ready, but LA demanded it be released.
Now I know the potential of millions of dollars can mend broken relationships, but they really should've thought long and hard before getting back into bed with LA. This happened before the EA buyout. Put both together (two companies with the worst of reputations in PC gamingland) and it was just bound to unravel.
so layoffs are normal ...
Ok so how are they going to cope with that engine with even less people working on the game? They need to call in the National Guard and start bringing in hobos to get more hands on that code!
It's taking them forever just to do stuff that other games have as basic features.
They just gimped the moped!
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
It really depends on who is getting let go.
I'm not defending SWTOR, it is a mediocre game at best with little incentive to keep people subbed, but these comments of - this isn't normal it is the sign of the games apocalypse are just silly.
Someone mentioned the EVE has only grown since its development, but they negelcted to mention that the company that developed it was tiny, Bioware is not, it has several branches in different locatons and countries. You can't just shift someone from Austin to Montreal, Edmonton, Fairfax or Galway.
Given the economy in the state it is in, and the fact that they are having retentions issues, this is no surprise, but it is unlikely the sign of SWTOR's undoing. It will never be a WoW killer, but if you've ever read my comments on the subject you'll see that I don't believe there is such a thing, WoW was the MMO anomaly and no game will ever achieve what it did, for better or worse. I would imagine in box sales alone SWTOR made ROI, and I imagine it is still a healthy functioning game (business-wise)from the subs, even if they never hit 1 mil. Look at SWG and how long it survied after it was gutted. Star Wars fan empitomize the "Shut up and take my money" meme.
I'm telling you, they seem to be held hostage by the technology. What other explanation is there for why SWTOR is anemic on most levels? Lazy employees?
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011