Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Questions about class balance and role
StrixMaxima
Member UncommonPosts: 865
Hello.
I always wanted to try the original GW, but for some reason or another, I never did. Now, with the impending release of GW2, I thought it was the right time to do so.
Sadly, I could not play during the last test weekend due to job issues. As such, I could not play the game directly yet. I saw a fair number of gameplay videos and several forum discussions, but I wanted to ask you people who did try the game:
1 - How is class balance as a whole?
2 - How is class balance, comparing melees to rangeds?
3 - How does Necromancers, Mesmers and Elementalists compare with each other?
4 - How are Mesmers doing? I am very interested in the class, but I've seen some interesting criticisms about it (clones too slow, Shatter too cumbersome, for instance).
5 - Most, if not all, professions can heal. Is there one that can do this more effectively than others? Elementalist, maybe? If so, is there any tradeoff?
6 - As a caster, how easy it is to peel off melees from you?
Of course, i know that most situations will be group PvP, which makes the interactions much more complicated, but I'd love to hear your overall impressions on the questions I put above. Any other input is also very welcome.
PS: Is there another beta weekend scheduled?
Comments
You still have to prepurchase to get into GW2 beta. They may open beta up later, but for now that's the only way in. You get to play during the beta weekend events which happen about once a month if you get into beta. They haven't given us a date for the next weekend.
It's hard to judge class balance off one weekend. PvP was fun and I never noticed one class doing particularly good or bad. All classes can use ranged attacks so there's not really a melee class, although there are melee builds. Each build has its strengths and weaknesses. I didn't notice any class build that was good in every situation. Mesmers were the masters of survival in PvP, I didn't play one so can't tell you about PvE. Some professions can heal more but the game is more about damage avoidance than healing. Mob AI makes tanking unreliable but it's not a problem because every class has tools for dealing with aggro.
1.Overall good balance.Greatsword rangers seem a little too much.Also Mesmer and Necro very good.Burst Warrior more than good.Engineer seems to me little UP.
2.Currently ranged is quite easyer to play,atleast at the noob stage we had at the beta test.
3.Also Elementalist is very good,but i saw many extremely low HP builds at the beta ,which was easy kills.No oppinion how are doing Ele,Mesmer and Necro against each other.
4.Very,Very good.
5.Water Elementalist.
6.With proper dodging and enough HP pool,very good.
Another beta at the end of the month...
http://www.zedge.net/profile/ZLE42/ <---- ringtones
Ah, I forgot to mention I already bought the digital preorder, even before the last test weekend
No problems in that front.
Thanks for the comments, which also leads to other questions I didn't put in the OP:
- How does the 'weapon - skill' system feels? Is there a way to quickly swap between weapons?
- Don't you think that forcing players in having 4 weapon skills and only 4 character skills is a little too limiting? Or maybe this is necessary due to game balance?
1.) way too early to judge class balance. Way way way. Each seemed fun in their own way.
2) see #1. melee does a lot more damage than ranged, but they take more too (since they are up close and personal).
3) all 3 are completely different, play completely different with completely different class mechanics and playstyles
4) In pvp many people claim mesmers are op. Many claim they need help. That usually is an indication they are just about right in power level. Tweaking will happen with their skills however. In PvE it seemed universal that clones didn't fool mobs often enough. Some people don't like the mesmer merchanics. Some people want them to be GW1 mechanics. Others love the new mechanics and embrace them. You will have to play one to see if it is for you.
5) All professions can heal themselves. Most professions can heal others, but that healing is very minor. Very very very minor. Even when specced to healing as much as possible, superty duperty minor.
6) depends on the class and it's weapons. It's not just casters that want to peel. No one in this game wants to absorb damage so using control abilities to avoid damage combined with evades and blocks are key for every class from warrior on down
7) The date for the next beta weekend event has not been announced but general assumption is the last weekend of May (each beta event so far has been the last weekend of each month, and they did announce the plan is to have one a month or so until release. Of course plans can change)
8) 6 of the 8 classes get a weapon swap mechanic that opens at level 7. it has a small cooldown on it.
9) it is 5 weapon skills, 1 self heal skill, 3 utility skills, and 1 elite. When factoring in all the class mechanics, the weapon swapping, no I don't find this too limiting. Your options are way more than in most MMOs for practical choices. You may have 80 skills at your disposal at any one time in other MMOs but many are situational and for practical purposes you probably only use 7 at a time anyway. (I realize there are exceptions). Keep in mind that you can swap out weapons and skills any time out of combat.
1. Class balance was further along than I had exspected, there were a few hiccups .... but overall no one profession seemed overly strong to me.
2. I never noticed a problem with Ranged Vs Melee, some people say it needs alot of work though. As I saw it if a melee can get and stay in range, he will win ... but Ranged professions have plenty of ways to keep the distance. Everyone can use ranged or melee weapons though.
3. Necromancers seemed very strong when played well, almost unkillable. Mesmers were master duelists , I think my mate can 1v1 anyone , elementalists seemed to be the caster every caster wishs they were in other mmogs.
4. I think Mesmer's are in a good spot currently, like I said my mate can easily solo any profession and come out at 75% at the least. He neither found the shatter effects cumbersome. I'd wager the Mesmer has a higher learning curve than some of the other professions though.
5. Yes ... and No. Good heals are done via regen.
6. Most casters have multiple escapes ... I think in competitive matchs a casters really going to have to be outplayed to get caught, or swarmed.
Thanks for the replies, most helpful.
Keep them comin'!
1 - The classes are very well balanced and ofc each class have a build that is "easier" to uso in pvp like greatsword ranger, dual knives thief, axe warriors....
2 - Another thing that is very well balanced... ranged are kinda easier to play PvE but in PvP both are balanced a ranged does not have advantage over a melee or the opposite.
3 - They are fine each one with their characteristics.
4 - Mesmer are grt and for me one of the classes i enjoy the most to play its really fun and have a grt visual on skills *_*.
5 - Water Elementalist have grt heals and Guardian can heal very well too other classes can heal as u say but i htink these two can be focused more on the heal job IF WANT IT ( does not mean that they can only heal and cant do other job ).
6 - As casters its not hard to get away from melee... again it depend of u, if u can use a good dodge, slow, or immobilized the player u will be able to get away from it.
About another BWE i dont really know when it will happen
cya in game !! have fun !!
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon
Weapon
Guardian
Warrior
Engineer
Ranger
Thief
Elementalist
Mesmer
Necromancer
1 Hand
Axe
Dagger
Mace
Pistol
Scepter
Sword
Off-hand only
Focus
Shield
Torch
Warhorn
Two handed
Greatsword
Hammer
Longbow
Rifle
Shortbow
Staff
Aquatic
Harpoon gun
Spear
Trident
Weapon sets
2
2
1
2
2
1
2
2
Total Weapons
11
11
4
10
6
5
9
8
Total Combinations
14
21
4
13
9
6
12
12
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill_bar
First five skills
The first five skills on the player's skill bar are weapon skills. These skills are determined by two main factors: the character's profession and the weapon(s) or environmental weapon equipped. The elementalist profession adds a third factor—attunement—which changes all five of an elementalist's weapon skills according to the element selected.
Changing any of these factors yields a different set of skills. For example, a ranger wielding two axes will have a different set of weapon skills than a warrior wielding two axes, while a necromancer wielding a staff will have a different set of skills than one wielding a scepter and warhorn.
A character's choice of weapons determines their skills as follows:
The main-hand weapon determines the first three skills.
The off-hand weapon determines the last two skills.
Two-handed weapons determine all five skills.
Environmental weapons determine up to five skills, and temporarily replace all weapon skills originally equipped.
The thief's third skill is determined by the combination of main-hand and off-hand weapons equipped (see dual wield skill). The shortbow is a two-handed weapon, so it does not have a dual skill.
The engineer's device- and weapon kits change your first five skills.
Forms change the first five skills while disabling the last five ones.
For all currently revealed professions, the skills granted by a weapon are always the same, but various effects can be added to these skills by equipping different traits.
Weapon skills are acquired through use of a weapon. It takes 5 kills to unlock weapon skill 2, 10 kills to unlock weapon skill 3, 15 kills to unlock weapon skill 4, and 20 kills to unlock weapon skill 5.
Last five skills
The last five skills are slot skills, chosen by the player from a pool of skills determined by the player's profession and race. The first of these skills is a dedicated healing skill, the middle three are utility skills, and the last one is an elite skill.
In PvE the utility and elite skill slots are initially locked and unlock as the character progresses through the game. The utility slots unlock at levels 5, 10 and 20. The elite slot unlocks at level 30. New slot skills can be obtained by spending skill points which are acquired by succeeding in challenges.
Diagram
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
Weapon Skills
Automatically slotted
Slot Skills
Player's choice (racial and profession skills)
Main hand
Off hand
Healing
Utility skills
Elite
Two-handed weapon
The elementalist has 6 weapon combos. The elementalist has 4 elements that they can swap between for each weapon combo. Each element has 5 new skills giving the Elementalist 20 skills per weapon set.
Balance of the classes is very early right now. They only just put the trait system into the game for the Febuary press beta. For the March press beta they added more major traits, and then for the Beta Weekend Event we saw them refine some of the traits. So we've only barely seen one "balance pass" on the trait system so far, which is a major element in balancing the classes.
Long story short, I don't think anybody can comment on the balance after only 3 days of playing, and even if they could, it probably wouldn't reflect much about the class balance at release.
Very thorough post. Thanks a lot!
By restriction, though, I meant the dreaded 'optimal curve'. From what I've read in many different places, Greatsowrd rangers are much more prevalent than others. I fear that, in time, the game will be played using mostly FOTM builds.
After all, damage is king
It is very hard to strike balance between utility, CC and damage, and most people simply gravitate towards big boom.
How does weapon sets work? You can swap them on the fly?
Yes you can swap and ArenaNet actually claims that swaping is crusial for a good playstyle.
As of FOTM,the folowers of this kind of playing will be always worse that the people who spend the time of learning their class and stick to it.
http://www.zedge.net/profile/ZLE42/ <---- ringtones
While I agree it is early, I would not say it is VERY early, especially after seeing the gameplay videos. The basic backbone of skills probably won't change very much, as the system looks very robust and functional. So, we can already have a pretty good grasp on what's going on with each class at this point. And, thus, my questions.
Of course, I could be horribly wrong
But I don't think we'll see any massive changes on how skills work. They appear to be in the tweaking phase.
There's so much customization between gear and traits that even two people with the same class using the same weapon sets won't always have identical strengths or abilities. There will be cookie-cutter guides that people copy, but there will also be a lot of room for people to do their own thing.
Weapon sets aren't just different ways of doing damage. Some sets have defensive abilities, other sets have utility... so it's not like everyone will go 2H because 1H is low DPS. Damage isn't always king in GW2... The active dodge ability that everyone gets gives you a couple seconds of immunity and some classes have defensive builds, so it's likely possible to come up with a build that can out last a burst build... but it's hard to tell exactly how this will play out until people have spent a lot more time in PvP.
You can swap between weapon sets on the fly by hitting a button (default is ~).
1. I don't think there's any definitive conclusions to be drawn at this point. From my experience, some professions did seem to perform better than others, but I'm prepared to chalk that up to my own inability to grasp the mechanics. Mesmer is a case in point. I found it quite weak in some respects, in that the damage output was low, however that was countered with high survivability. I took me forever to whittle mobs down sometimes, but I also rarely found myself downed. I switched to another profession after level 10 so I hardly took the time necessary to explore it. Likewise, the Thief (especially melee), I found tricky to play. On the other hand, Guardian and Ranger were facerollers by comparison.
My conclusion is that some professions are easier to learn than others. The more finesse required to play a profession, the more time it will take for the player to learn it. I'd put Mesmer and Thief at the top of the finesse ladder, in that respect. As for the ones I didn't mention, they'll be getting some attention from me during the next BWE.
2. There has been a lot of talk about melee specs having a tougher time than ranged ones. I don't subscribe to this personally. True, the melee Thief I tried was tough as hell, even at the beginning, and when using the Shortbow, it evened out quite a bit. But again, I put that up to my inexperience with the profession and failure to grasp the mechanics sufficiently to play it well. Really, player skill and familiarity counts for a TON. However, I found the Guardian extremely powerful in melee, and nigh on unstoppable at times. With the Ranger, I switched between ranged and melee frequently and found them fully capable in either mode.
The one MAJOR drawback I experienced across all melee specs is the fact that you are much more reliant on reading mob tells than ranged specs. And because it's so easy to miss them when playing with a large group of players due to the particle effects, melees are likely to take a whole lot more damage and end up downed, much more frequently than their ranged counterparts. It comes down to visibility and being able to read the battle unhindered. Otherwise, they are very powerful and definitely can ruin a ranged specialist's day if they're allowed to get close enough and stay there.
3. I never played Necromancer and only tried Elementalist for about two hours at the end of the BWE (and loved it), so I can't offer a comparison.
4. Mesmers. The trickiest profession I tried, by far. It may seem straightforward at first, but it really isn't. No other profession requires the same level of timing and is as reliant and the player's personal level of experience as this one. In a sense, it's very much like the original Mesmer playstyle from GW1, the difference being the actual mechanics themselves.
The Shatter skills take some getting used to since it requires knowing which Shatter to use in a given situation, but more importantly, when to do it. Because you are more powerful while they are up than when they are down, it's actually in your interest to want to keep them active. However, they are so flimsy that if you delay too long, you'll lose your chance to get your Shatter off and lose out on some major damage, boons or condition applications.
Mesmers themselves are also very flimsy, but have many tricks to keep themselves alive. That's what makes them hard to take down. Not their armor or health, but their slipperiness. One of the odd things about Mesmers that has a pretty big influence on their survivability is knowing when to do nothing at all. When you bring out clones, they will act in a certain way. Depending on how well you can mimic their behaviour, it possible for enemies to lose track of you completely for a short time. When you're on the ropes, knowing when to stand still and do nothing but use auto-attack, can save you from defeat. But that takes experience. Experience playing the profession, understanding the mechanics, having a good idea of how your opponent will perceive your actions and knowing when you have a shot at disappearing into your crowd.
Bottom line is this, if you want to excel with this profession, be prepared to put in a lot of time to learn it, moreso than other professions. And that's pretty much just what ANet said when they revealed them. I'm looking forward to doing that at launch.
5. Both the Ranger and Guardian have a lot of healing they can generate. Gobs of it really when you spec for it. I can't speak for the other profession though because I didn't play them, or at least not high enough to offer an opinion. But from what I can tell, most professions can spec for some powerful healing effects. That being said, don't take that to mean that you can play a dedicated healer. You can't. You can focus as much on healing support as you want, but the onus will always be on the individual player to stay alive through damage avoidance.
What heal specced professions can do though is add to everyone's combat longevity, give them some breathing room when they are under pressure and get them back on their feet much faster when downed. But even then, the cooldowns on these abilities are often such that you'll just be sitting on your hands for the majority of most fights if you try to dedicate yourself only to healing. You'll still have many skills at your disposal to apply damage, boons, conditions and general control and you WILL be expected to use them.
6. It seems that every profession has access to skills that allow them to either break holds and stuns, or to put some distance between them and a tenacious melee foe. On the other hand, every profession also seems to have access to skills that allow them to close the distance instantly too. Many times, it's the weapon set that will decide just how many of these types of skill are available to you. Some sets have very little while other sets are stuffed with these kinds of contol and mobility skills.
For instance, I played a Longbow and Sword/Dagger based Ranger. Longbow gives you a knockback arrow that becomes more powerful, the closer an enemy is to you. At point blanck range (melee), you can send an opponent flying a long way. Then there's Barrage which, in addition to providing decent AoE damage, also applies and AoE cripple.
Swapping sets then gives you both a knockback/cripple and a leap attack as follow ups on your skill 1, a leap away and a follow up leap attack (which can be used against different opponents) on your skill 2, another skill that rushes you into melee on your skill 3 and a ranged cripple on your skill 5. Skill 4 only lets you apply poison to an enemy, but also give you another evade. That's like an additional dodge on a cooldown instead of using endurance.
That's probably one of the most mobile weapon sets I've seen for a profession, but I think all professions are capable of something similar, although probably not to the same extent as the Ranger. And this ignores the many utility skills that are available, as well as how you trait your character. Traiting itself will have a huge influence on the way a profession will play, but that's a can of worms I'll leave unopened.
Hope that helps.
The traits add a LARGE amount of different behavior. A necormancer traited for maximizing death shorud form will play radically different than a necro traited for something else even with same loadout.
Even a single Major trait can radically change things. For example one Mesmer trait is to create a clone on a dodge. That means that trait alone could easily double your clone output compared to another mesmer. And since clones are a nontrivial aoe attack that is pretty big.
To put that into perspective one of the Utility powers (I believe costs at 4 skill points which is medium expense) is to spawn off two clones of your. If we go by this then a Major trait is roughly equivalent to medium cost utility power.
You can get I think 7 major traits.
So going by this a fully traited character has the equivalent of 10 utility powers versus a non-traited players 3. That is 3.1 times the utility powers. And that is ignorign the minor trait effects and stat boosts.
The way your character plays out is going to be VASTLY affected by Major traits.
Again, thanks for the elaborated posts. That's what I'm looking for: personal impressions on how things played out so far, not a definitive guide or something like that. But your personal experiences certainly provide a solid preview about the game.
Those are most helpful, and they also make me a little more anxious to play the game myself
EDIT: Reading gestalt's answer above, I question: what about skill points and their costs? Can you eventually purchase all available powers to your profession/race or you are limited bu number, level, etc?
AFAIK, you can keep getting skill points after reaching level cap, and eventually you should be able to purchase all the skills for your profession, but you're limited to have in your hotbar 1 healing, 3 utility and 1 elite skills at any given time. Don't remember if you can change them at anytime out of combat or only in cities (like GW1), but once you're in combat what you got in your hotbar is all you can use.
What can men do against such reckless hate?
You get skill points from level and from finding things in the world that award them.
If you get the exploration skill points I am pretty certain you could buy every skill. If you are really deligent about exploration skill points you could get 7 pointers before level 20 or a fairly wide selection of 1-4 pointers before 20.
I played mainly Sword/Sword and Greatsword and I only played the profession to about 11, so I didn't unlock a lot of utility skills or traiting. I also found the Shatter skills difficult to use since they were on F1 to F4 and so, were difficult to easily reach, making the mechanic tough to use properly. I only played Ranger higher (21-ish) so I made my comments based on a comparison of professions at quite a low level. But I was also *very* clear with the caveat that it was my belief that this profession required a level of dedication to master that I didn't give it.
When I have more than 60 hours to try out the thousand on one different things that interest me in the game, I'll offer a more definitive opinion.
I really didn't like off-hand mesmer sword. I guess it might have a place with Scepter/Sword but a build with alot of blocking.
But all in all the swordsmen seemed rather crappy and the block was very limited and slow.
Some of the weapon sets I think still need some tweaking or are simply meant to be used in very niche cicumstances.
Taking /sword instead of /pistol was like 33% less damage and in some ways actually less safe as a 3 person disable is simply more powerful, faster and did more damage than the block which only blocked one thing, did no damage and had a 3 second channel.
The phantasm pistoleer used an Offload clone and did so immeidately from max range. It did more damage, quicker, and almost never died compared to the swordsman. Like double the damage.
All in all it was a striking difference. And while the difference between /pistol and /focus was also striking I foun a use for the swiftness in /focus and the phantasm, while limited does a ton of aoe damage.
Based on these comparisons I have to say not all of the weapon sets are fully balanced yet. Especially certain offhands. Some are clearly meant for certain uses. But in some cases like /sword for mesmer I would say they are just inferior.
1. Fairly even I'd say. certain classes have massive obvious potential in wvw (elementalists spamming rain of fire...) but everyone has useful skills and abilities, so it's all up to what you like to do.
2. Depends on who you ask. I felt melee were very powerful and a lot of fun. Ranged tended to be less interesting. But a LOT of people have been complaining about how hard melee is. I think it's that the game's learning curve is steeper, so taking the safe route is preferred.
3. Apples, oranges, and kumquats. Totally different animals. Mesmer is a melee/range hybrid caster with a focus on status effects and stealth tricks; Neco is all about dots, self-healing, and pets; Ele is sheer nukability with some strong heals and buffs.
4. The complaints you've heard are entirely valid,. and something I know the dev community has seen. Clones die easiily to cleaves and do little; phantasms are more robust but have their own issues. melee illusions are too slow, shattering is clunky, Confusion doesn't work in pve, illusions die when the mob you were targeting does, so don't summon one when the mob is at 1%.....think I hit them all. Hopefully we'll see improvement next phase.
5. Water eles, medkit engis, and properly specced guardians are much stronger in healing, but if you think you can make a wow-type dedicated healre out of them, think again. Your party will die, and you will have wasted chances to dmg/debuff/buff/ do something useful.
6. Varies on class, but they all seem fine.
P.S. God I wish.
Extra: Glad to see some other melee mesmers in here talking. It IS entirely viable and kicks a lot of butt once you "get" how to use your abilities.