I doesn't see the point of people condeming TSW's business plan before seeing what the CS actually has.
If the items are purely cosmetical at launch it doesn't really affect anything.
It's like playing a purely Subscription based game that has huge variety of items to change the look of your character.
I personally see the CS more as a feature unless it starts selling time-savers or power. But currently we don't know that.
This is because you don't want to see the items sold in the cash shop as content, which is something your subscription should be covering for you. Even if it's for cool new duds, it should be released to players as part of their ongoing support of the game through subscription. You know, player's ongoing support of the game being reciprocated by the developers ongoing support of the same -- the way it used to be.
Cash shop or subscription. I'm fine with either, not with both.
The clothes are just something extra, you can get outfits from the game itself without using the CS. It's just an easier way for the developers to add something to the game and get instant gratifcation in form of bought funcom points out of it. You could think of it as if those clothes would never be added to the game without the CS. So your subscription only meets the core game itself and the CS content is extra that wouldn't be included in a subscription only game. TSW doesn't revolve around the cash shop, it's just added value which wouldn't otherwise be there at all.
This said, you can keep living in the past.
All the future MMORPGs will have CS implemented in some form including the ones with box price/monthly.
Even Tera which is a P2P MMORPG has a cash shop planned and it came out like two days ago.
The main question of the developers of tomorrow is how intruisive the cash shop will be?
Neither GW2 or TSW have a legitimate cash shop. Neither sell items at max level to give you an unfair advantage.
/thread
Edit: P2Win Cash Shop*
The problem here is what exactly is a "unfair" advantage as I bet people have a wide range of ideas that might not line up with yours.
In a game without levels like TSW does gaining skill points faster while questing give you a unfair advantage? Once you finish all your solo story quests if someone using the cash shop has 50% more skill points than someone who didn't is that fair?
In a game with levels like EQ2 if a developer creates new content for a level expansion that is by design not enough solo quests to get to max level without using cash shop xp potions is that a unfair advantage? Is a cash shop that doesn't make you grind for your last couple levels because you ran out of quests ok for a sub game?
In a game where the gear you wear is by design for looks only like TSW or any game with appearance slots does having full sets of gear on the cash shop that you can't get in game a unfair advantage? What if full sets of matching gear in game are hard to come by and spread out all over the world in random drops? If the choice is look like a rodeo clown or grind for weeks/months hoping for a random drop you want (that someone else int the group doesn't win the role on) to match up your apperance set?
Is things like Karma buffs and keys for chests like GW2 on the cash shop a unfair advantage? What if the developer by deisgn engineered the rate you gain karma and the ratio of keys to chest to encourage the use of the cash shop?
My point is all these things are at some level a unfair advantage. And if you take the senical view that developers are designing content to encourage the use of the cash shop (I'm not sure how you can assume anything else) than they start to look downright unfriendly.
Except to many developers it is to offset the increased development costs. If you read this forum you'll see that people expect crysis 2 (or whatever the graphics benchmark game is) graphics but they want it to work on as many comps as possible, the best and most balanced pvp (which makes no sense), a perfect balance in dungeon difficulty (which differs from person to person). So as an example calculate how much you would need and go to a publisher and say you want them to fund your project. Its a hard sell, box sales especially for this fickle genre hardly make the investment back. Now think of all the staff they are paying its horrendous. So If a cs gives the developers a bonus I'm all for it it will either be their reward for a great game, pay back the investment if its not paid already, or go into new content. So when you stop looking at it like everyone is out to get you you lose that everyone is being downright unfriendly feeling.
If that's the case (I'm not sure it is looking at the profits games like WOT and LOL make) than I personally would prefer they just raise the monthly sub fee. SWTOR and RIFT are both sub games without cash shops. SWTOR is to new to get a idea for how content is going to work but can anyone critizize Rift for being under supported because of no cash shop since launch? Rift has it's issues but lack of new content isn't one of them.
I doesn't see the point of people condeming TSW's business plan before seeing what the CS actually has.
If the items are purely cosmetical at launch it doesn't really affect anything.
It's like playing a purely Subscription based game that has huge variety of items to change the look of your character.
I personally see the CS more as a feature unless it starts selling time-savers or power. But currently we don't know that.
This is because you don't want to see the items sold in the cash shop as content, which is something your subscription should be covering for you. Even if it's for cool new duds, it should be released to players as part of their ongoing support of the game through subscription. You know, player's ongoing support of the game being reciprocated by the developers ongoing support of the same -- the way it used to be.
Cash shop or subscription. I'm fine with either, not with both.
The clothes are just something extra, you can get outfits from the game itself without using the CS. It's just an easier way for the developers to add something to the game and get instant gratifcation in form of bought funcom points out of it. You could think of it as if those clothes would never be added to the game without the CS. So your subscription only meets the core game itself and the CS content is extra that wouldn't be included in a subscription only game. TSW doesn't revolve around the cash shop, it's just added value which wouldn't otherwise be there at all.
This said, you can keep living in the past.
All the future MMORPGs will have CS implemented in some form including the ones with box price/monthly.
Even Tera which is a P2P MMORPG has a cash shop planned and it came out like two days ago.
The main question of the developers of tomorrow is how intruisive the cash shop will be?
Three points about what your wrote.
1. If the developers design the drops of sets of gear to require months of grinding for random chests drops from all over the world to build a complete set is it still ok?
2. If a developer spends a increasing amount of time developing cash shop items instead of free content in a sub game is that still ok?
3. Just because its the direction the industry is headed in doesn't make it right or consumer friendly. Cash shops are not here to benifit us the consumers, they are here because they benifit the bottom line of the game company by allowing them to extract more money each month from subscribers without having to draw new subs to the game. How can any consumer look at that as a healthy thing for us game players. It means smaller games with less free content and more focus on a cash shop.
I have subbed to EQ2 since launch and I can say since that game launched a cash shop the qaulity and quanity of new free content has decreased noticably where the new items being added to the cash shop has increased a order of magnitude. This is the "new" model of MMO's. Welcome to the future.
Neither GW2 or TSW have a legitimate cash shop. Neither sell items at max level to give you an unfair advantage.
/thread
Edit: P2Win Cash Shop*
The problem here is what exactly is a "unfair" advantage as I bet people have a wide range of ideas that might not line up with yours.
In a game without levels like TSW does gaining skill points faster while questing give you a unfair advantage? Once you finish all your solo story quests if someone using the cash shop has 50% more skill points than someone who didn't is that fair?
In a game with levels like EQ2 if a developer creates new content for a level expansion that is by design not enough solo quests to get to max level without using cash shop xp potions is that a unfair advantage? Is a cash shop that doesn't make you grind for your last couple levels because you ran out of quests ok for a sub game?
In a game where the gear you wear is by design for looks only like TSW or any game with appearance slots does having full sets of gear on the cash shop that you can't get in game a unfair advantage? What if full sets of matching gear in game are hard to come by and spread out all over the world in random drops? If the choice is look like a rodeo clown or grind for weeks/months hoping for a random drop you want (that someone else int the group doesn't win the role on) to match up your apperance set?
Is things like Karma buffs and keys for chests like GW2 on the cash shop a unfair advantage? What if the developer by deisgn engineered the rate you gain karma and the ratio of keys to chest to encourage the use of the cash shop?
My point is all these things are at some level a unfair advantage. And if you take the senical view that developers are designing content to encourage the use of the cash shop (I'm not sure how you can assume anything else) than they start to look downright unfriendly.
Except to many developers it is to offset the increased development costs. If you read this forum you'll see that people expect crysis 2 (or whatever the graphics benchmark game is) graphics but they want it to work on as many comps as possible, the best and most balanced pvp (which makes no sense), a perfect balance in dungeon difficulty (which differs from person to person). So as an example calculate how much you would need and go to a publisher and say you want them to fund your project. Its a hard sell, box sales especially for this fickle genre hardly make the investment back. Now think of all the staff they are paying its horrendous. So If a cs gives the developers a bonus I'm all for it it will either be their reward for a great game, pay back the investment if its not paid already, or go into new content. So when you stop looking at it like everyone is out to get you you lose that everyone is being downright unfriendly feeling.
If that's the case (I'm not sure it is looking at the profits games like WOT and LOL make) than I personally would prefer they just raise the monthly sub fee. SWTOR and RIFT are both sub games without cash shops. SWTOR is to new to get a idea for how content is going to work but can anyone critizize Rift for being under supported because of no cash shop since launch? Rift has it's issues but lack of new content isn't one of them.
yes but they are not specifically marketing to you. As an example if I made my perfect mmorpg people wouldn't probably play because my tastes are unique. If ever a developer said hey to offset our expenditures we're going to increase the sub to $20 or $25 dollars. I can guarentee you they would have one of the lowest playerbases for a new mmorpg. People think all the costs for making an mmorpg is trivial because for a long time mmorpgs used more indepth systems for free with the sub to draw people away from other types of games. It didn't work and people now expect those costly products for free. People expect alot from video games in general because they don't know what goes into making one.
Alright; I did some more digging. If TSW's cash shop ends up going from a convience store to a super wallieworld; I think it's time for TSW players (The ones that want to stay regardless) to boycott the shop. I know if this shop gets out of hand we're going to see extremely low population servers and suffer the fate of FC's other games at launch.
I love the setting and premise of this game. If I fall in love during the WBE, all the more better. Might even start an open letter to FC.
I doesn't see the point of people condeming TSW's business plan before seeing what the CS actually has.
If the items are purely cosmetical at launch it doesn't really affect anything.
It's like playing a purely Subscription based game that has huge variety of items to change the look of your character.
I personally see the CS more as a feature unless it starts selling time-savers or power. But currently we don't know that.
This is because you don't want to see the items sold in the cash shop as content, which is something your subscription should be covering for you. Even if it's for cool new duds, it should be released to players as part of their ongoing support of the game through subscription. You know, player's ongoing support of the game being reciprocated by the developers ongoing support of the same -- the way it used to be.
Cash shop or subscription. I'm fine with either, not with both.
The clothes are just something extra, you can get outfits from the game itself without using the CS. It's just an easier way for the developers to add something to the game and get instant gratifcation in form of bought funcom points out of it. You could think of it as if those clothes would never be added to the game without the CS. So your subscription only meets the core game itself and the CS content is extra that wouldn't be included in a subscription only game. TSW doesn't revolve around the cash shop, it's just added value which wouldn't otherwise be there at all.
This said, you can keep living in the past.
All the future MMORPGs will have CS implemented in some form including the ones with box price/monthly.
Even Tera which is a P2P MMORPG has a cash shop planned and it came out like two days ago.
The main question of the developers of tomorrow is how intruisive the cash shop will be?
Three points about what your wrote.
1. If the developers design the drops of sets of gear to require months of grinding for random chests drops from all over the world to build a complete set is it still ok?
2. If a developer spends a increasing amount of time developing cash shop items instead of free content in a sub game is that still ok?
3. Just because its the direction the industry is headed in doesn't make it right or consumer friendly. Cash shops are not here to benifit us the consumers, they are here because they benifit the bottom line of the game company by allowing them to extract more money each month from subscribers without having to draw new subs to the game. How can any consumer look at that as a healthy thing for us game players. It means smaller games with less free content and more focus on a cash shop.
I have subbed to EQ2 since launch and I can say since that game launched a cash shop the qaulity and quanity of new free content has decreased noticably where the new items being added to the cash shop has increased a order of magnitude. This is the "new" model of MMO's. Welcome to the future.
1) If it's purely cosmetical then I don't really care if the drop comes from the most epic creature in the game or if you have to kill 2 million zombies for it. Power should never be sold in a CS.
2) That depends on the developer and on the volume of the CS. I don't see the profit in creating 200 new costumes per week for the CS. If real content gets pushed back due to new jeans in the cash shop I could see this a problem but it's really farfetched. This is also depending on the community, if majority of the players want new stuff on the CS then by all means but some resources into it.
3) Of course it's not the best possible consumer friendly solution but people love these games and are even addicted to them so mass boycotting is impossible. Especially the new breed of "gamers" are impossible to control in what they'll buy/play. Us "old-skool gamers" just need to adjust in this new reality until a company grows a pair and release an option that other companies have to bend to.
EQ2 is a bad example because it's a dieing game.
Lotro for example started releasing content much faster after going F2P because they received more income through the CS+VIP+F2P system. Cash Shops have a great function in the main scheme and that's making games stay alive longer that should be buried.
Alright; I did some more digging. If TSW's cash shop ends up going from a convience store to a super wallieworld; I think it's time for TSW players (The ones that want to stay regardless) to boycott the shop. I know if this shop gets out of hand we're going to see extremely low population servers and suffer the fate of FC's other games at launch.
I love the setting and premise of this game. If I fall in love during the WBE, all the more better. Might even start an open letter to FC.
I love that idea. If they start selling time-savers or power in their CS people should definately boycott it. However there are people who will pour a fortune into the cash shop to receive XP boosts and such if these are offered and not to mention a lot of players going shopping spree on the clothes store (mainly female gamers).
If the devs give players option to progress faster in the game by spending some real world currency they are certain to take it.
Alright; I did some more digging. If TSW's cash shop ends up going from a convience store to a super wallieworld; I think it's time for TSW players (The ones that want to stay regardless) to boycott the shop. I know if this shop gets out of hand we're going to see extremely low population servers and suffer the fate of FC's other games at launch.
I love the setting and premise of this game. If I fall in love during the WBE, all the more better. Might even start an open letter to FC.
I love that idea. If they start selling time-savers or power in their CS people should definately boycott it. However there are people who will pour a fortune into the cash shop to receive XP boosts and such if these are offered and not to mention a lot of players going shopping spree on the clothes store (mainly female gamers).
If the devs give players option to progress faster in the game by spending some real world currency they are certain to take it.
I am all man, and I can't wait for what seems to be the potential to have a truley unique character. I will pay 99c for some shorts or some shades.
Alright; I did some more digging. If TSW's cash shop ends up going from a convience store to a super wallieworld; I think it's time for TSW players (The ones that want to stay regardless) to boycott the shop. I know if this shop gets out of hand we're going to see extremely low population servers and suffer the fate of FC's other games at launch.
I love the setting and premise of this game. If I fall in love during the WBE, all the more better. Might even start an open letter to FC.
I love that idea. If they start selling time-savers or power in their CS people should definately boycott it. However there are people who will pour a fortune into the cash shop to receive XP boosts and such if these are offered and not to mention a lot of players going shopping spree on the clothes store (mainly female gamers).
If the devs give players option to progress faster in the game by spending some real world currency they are certain to take it.
I am all man, and I can't wait for what seems to be the potential to have a truley unique character. I will pay 99c for some shorts or some shades.
I'm looking forward to TSW as well but the truth is that cash shop has probably resulted in me not purchasing a lifetime sub to the game. My fear is that the bulk of the new content development will end up going into cash shop items and a lifetime sub would just be a waste. Instead I'll sub month to month so I can observe how new content is being released.
Don't get me wrong. I am not one of those people who absolutly won't play cash shop sub or F2P games but I tend to be much more wary of them compared to straight up sub games. I have seen first hand what a cash shop does to sub games and how it alters (from my perception) the focus of the devs and don't like the trend. That's my core issue with them and it happens regradless of how fluffy the stuff in the shop is.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
For Me PvE winning is more subjective. The experience is either cooperative or solo - so what exactly is winning in that regard? The items you get for the bonus packs you buy and the secret war unlock, all point back to early game content.
In TSW PvP is not a factor until the 2/3 of the game. You can not just create a character and jump into PvP. You're going to have to do some PvE content first. This means all the early game stuff will not be useful to you and that's the only place where a true P2W situation could arise.
Plus, don't forget that TSW doesn't have a traditional gear score. Talismans (formely called Chakras) will dictate your defense/toughness. This means what you wear is 100% cosmetic. I would be surprised if cosmetic items weren't their major push. People love having unique and different things to wear for their characters.
And just by tons of free crap we're getting already with the game, I would say they're going to have a lot available both in game and in the CS.
edit- for me free crap is my pre-order bonus items + all the stuff you unlock for the secret war.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
For Me PvE winning is more subjective. The experience is either cooperative or solo - so what exactly is winning in that regard? The items you get for the bonus packs you buy and the secret war unlock, all point back to early game content.
In TSW PvP is not a factor until the 2/3 of the game. You can not just create a character and jump into PvP. You're going to have to do some PvE content first. This means all the early game stuff will not be useful to you and that's the only place where a true P2W situation could arise.
Plus, don't forget that TSW doesn't have a traditional gear score. Talismans (formely called Chakras) will dictate your defense/toughness. This means what you wear is 100% cosmetic. I would be surprised if cosmetic items weren't their major push. People love having unique and different things to wear for their characters.
And just by tons of free crap we're getting already with the game, I would say they're going to have a lot available both in game and in the CS.
edit- for me free crap is my pre-order bonus items + all the stuff you unlock for the secret war.
Well. I can see how some believe P2W is on the horizon for TSW. Their initiate pack contains, and I quote:
"These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!"
This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
For Me PvE winning is more subjective. The experience is either cooperative or solo - so what exactly is winning in that regard? The items you get for the bonus packs you buy and the secret war unlock, all point back to early game content.
In TSW PvP is not a factor until the 2/3 of the game. You can not just create a character and jump into PvP. You're going to have to do some PvE content first. This means all the early game stuff will not be useful to you and that's the only place where a true P2W situation could arise.
Plus, don't forget that TSW doesn't have a traditional gear score. Talismans (formely called Chakras) will dictate your defense/toughness. This means what you wear is 100% cosmetic. I would be surprised if cosmetic items weren't their major push. People love having unique and different things to wear for their characters.
And just by tons of free crap we're getting already with the game, I would say they're going to have a lot available both in game and in the CS.
edit- for me free crap is my pre-order bonus items + all the stuff you unlock for the secret war.
Well. I can see how some believe P2W is on the horizon for TSW. Their initiate pack contains, and I quote:
"These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!"
This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic.
You are forgetting that TSW doesn't have digital or boxed collector's editions.
The additional packs are to be considered as collector's editions and they provide a lot more value than for example SWTOR or GW2 in their collector's editions. In the end the packs are a slight boost to your first 5-10 hours of the game and it doesn't in my opinion translate into a P2W CS
Originally posted by GoldenArrow Originally posted by Sora2810
Originally posted by jdnyc Here's my thoughts. According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there. Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part. For Me PvE winning is more subjective. The experience is either cooperative or solo - so what exactly is winning in that regard? The items you get for the bonus packs you buy and the secret war unlock, all point back to early game content. In TSW PvP is not a factor until the 2/3 of the game. You can not just create a character and jump into PvP. You're going to have to do some PvE content first. This means all the early game stuff will not be useful to you and that's the only place where a true P2W situation could arise. Plus, don't forget that TSW doesn't have a traditional gear score. Talismans (formely called Chakras) will dictate your defense/toughness. This means what you wear is 100% cosmetic. I would be surprised if cosmetic items weren't their major push. People love having unique and different things to wear for their characters. And just by tons of free crap we're getting already with the game, I would say they're going to have a lot available both in game and in the CS. edit- for me free crap is my pre-order bonus items + all the stuff you unlock for the secret war.
Well. I can see how some believe P2W is on the horizon for TSW. Their initiate pack contains, and I quote: "These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!" This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic. You are forgetting that TSW doesn't have digital or boxed collector's editions. The additional packs are to be considered as collector's editions and they provide a lot more value than for example SWTOR or GW2 in their collector's editions.
No. How can you possibly consider a virtual item to be worth more than a physical object?
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
"Mostly" Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
Well. I can see how some believe P2W is on the horizon for TSW. Their initiate pack contains, and I quote:
"These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!"
This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic.
That's what hit me, too. They said the cash shop was going to have convenience items and clothing, fine. I am a bit suspicious over exactly what items "convenience" includes but whatever.
And then I look at the sub packages and am immediately greeted by them selling me weapons and talismans in addition to clothing. Yes, they're starter level weapons and yes, they will be replaced at some point, though saying things like "high-end beginner weapons" and "capaulting you into combat" makes me wonder if I will have a lesser experience without them. These kinds of things strike me as OK in F2P models but less OK in subscription models. When WoW started selling things like mounts and pets I was bothered. In my opinion, if you can't get it in-game on your own, you shouldn't be able to simply buy it.
Add to all of this the idea that on top of my sub, they expect a sustained revenue stream of $5.25 a month per player on average (and yes, this does not mean that everyone is buying, it means ON AVERAGE). I'm wondering what they are putting in there that would make the buying of items on a regular basis so desireable.
And yes, this is all conjecture, but the game is out in six weeks and we still haven't seen the cash shop or really much information at all. And this certainly impacts my decision to pre-purchase. Just show us the damn cash shop already Funcom.
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
"Mostly" Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
Is that comment of "Mostly cosmetic and convenience" from the TSW developers?
"Loading screens" are not "instances". Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
"Mostly" Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
Is that comment of "Mostly cosmetic and convenience" from the TSW developers?
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
"Mostly" Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
Is that comment of "Mostly cosmetic and convenience" from the TSW developers?
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
"Mostly" Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
Is that comment of "Mostly cosmetic and convenience" from the TSW developers?
This is from this PAX, 2012 and is far more resent then what you posted.
So you are saying the developers are lying? as they are selling weapons with stats for $5 before we even see the cash shop that gives an advantage to players, it is a copy past from AoC starter packs. We know they are selling powers. Like they said already "mostly" and the original post comes from the presentation to investors, who is Tor and Erling's bosses boss.
You do have a point, they wont sell the number 1# weapon or tailsman in the game at the shop but the#2- #3 weapons and tailsman should be there sometime soon and that is what I consider "pay to win" and is how AoC's shop is set up for PvP. I consider cash shop items 90-95% the power of best end game items to be pay to win. If you don't care that is you, but realize it also kills the in game ecconomy and crafting.
Micro transactions are a good thing as long as it is not P2W. Everyone keeps focusing on the preorder crap, If you pre order you should get somthing special just like if you play the secrect war game you should get special stuff. It not new i dont know why people keep harping on the preorder stuff you can get if you choose to spend the money. SWTOR did the same thing so does wow and many other MMO''s. If you get the speacial edition or if you pre order you get a better low end item than the rest of the people who opt'd out.
Micro transactions are a good thing as long as it is not P2W. Everyone keeps focusing on the preorder crap, If you pre order you should get somthing special just like if you play the secrect war game you should get special stuff. It not new i dont know why people keep harping on the preorder stuff you can get if you choose to spend the money. SWTOR did the same thing so does wow and many other MMO''s. If you get the speacial edition or if you pre order you get a better low end item than the rest of the people who opt'd out.
The "preorder" crap does not include the $15 dollar initiate package of "high-end beginer weapons will catapult you into combat" or the $60 dollar master package claiming to "accelerate your progress to glory". both on the TSW preorder checkout page and they have nothing to do with preorders.
It seems all games are dumbing down, making less content at launch, and now selling advantages. Maybe I will just get a new hobby.
they are beginning weaponry included not in the cash shop but in preorder packs. Essentially the value of these weapons are a little overstated but still doesn't concur as pay2win. Preorder packs do not equal whats in the cash shop and there is much better weaponry available in game.
i think if the people who ar complaing about this should just go to a different game and stop QQing over somthing they have not even tested. Nothing points to P2W all it say is that if you want an extra special pre order pakage then let them the weapons are not going to omg kill everything in one shot so i really dont understand why the is a big deal. Now when the game launches and the store as OP weapons that can only be got by the store then start whinning till then there is no reason.
Comments
This is how I roll.
The sooner you fall behind the more time you have to catch up.
The clothes are just something extra, you can get outfits from the game itself without using the CS. It's just an easier way for the developers to add something to the game and get instant gratifcation in form of bought funcom points out of it. You could think of it as if those clothes would never be added to the game without the CS. So your subscription only meets the core game itself and the CS content is extra that wouldn't be included in a subscription only game. TSW doesn't revolve around the cash shop, it's just added value which wouldn't otherwise be there at all.
This said, you can keep living in the past.
All the future MMORPGs will have CS implemented in some form including the ones with box price/monthly.
Even Tera which is a P2P MMORPG has a cash shop planned and it came out like two days ago.
The main question of the developers of tomorrow is how intruisive the cash shop will be?
If that's the case (I'm not sure it is looking at the profits games like WOT and LOL make) than I personally would prefer they just raise the monthly sub fee. SWTOR and RIFT are both sub games without cash shops. SWTOR is to new to get a idea for how content is going to work but can anyone critizize Rift for being under supported because of no cash shop since launch? Rift has it's issues but lack of new content isn't one of them.
Three points about what your wrote.
1. If the developers design the drops of sets of gear to require months of grinding for random chests drops from all over the world to build a complete set is it still ok?
2. If a developer spends a increasing amount of time developing cash shop items instead of free content in a sub game is that still ok?
3. Just because its the direction the industry is headed in doesn't make it right or consumer friendly. Cash shops are not here to benifit us the consumers, they are here because they benifit the bottom line of the game company by allowing them to extract more money each month from subscribers without having to draw new subs to the game. How can any consumer look at that as a healthy thing for us game players. It means smaller games with less free content and more focus on a cash shop.
I have subbed to EQ2 since launch and I can say since that game launched a cash shop the qaulity and quanity of new free content has decreased noticably where the new items being added to the cash shop has increased a order of magnitude. This is the "new" model of MMO's. Welcome to the future.
yes but they are not specifically marketing to you. As an example if I made my perfect mmorpg people wouldn't probably play because my tastes are unique. If ever a developer said hey to offset our expenditures we're going to increase the sub to $20 or $25 dollars. I can guarentee you they would have one of the lowest playerbases for a new mmorpg. People think all the costs for making an mmorpg is trivial because for a long time mmorpgs used more indepth systems for free with the sub to draw people away from other types of games. It didn't work and people now expect those costly products for free. People expect alot from video games in general because they don't know what goes into making one.
Alright; I did some more digging. If TSW's cash shop ends up going from a convience store to a super wallieworld; I think it's time for TSW players (The ones that want to stay regardless) to boycott the shop. I know if this shop gets out of hand we're going to see extremely low population servers and suffer the fate of FC's other games at launch.
I love the setting and premise of this game. If I fall in love during the WBE, all the more better. Might even start an open letter to FC.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
1) If it's purely cosmetical then I don't really care if the drop comes from the most epic creature in the game or if you have to kill 2 million zombies for it. Power should never be sold in a CS.
2) That depends on the developer and on the volume of the CS. I don't see the profit in creating 200 new costumes per week for the CS. If real content gets pushed back due to new jeans in the cash shop I could see this a problem but it's really farfetched. This is also depending on the community, if majority of the players want new stuff on the CS then by all means but some resources into it.
3) Of course it's not the best possible consumer friendly solution but people love these games and are even addicted to them so mass boycotting is impossible. Especially the new breed of "gamers" are impossible to control in what they'll buy/play. Us "old-skool gamers" just need to adjust in this new reality until a company grows a pair and release an option that other companies have to bend to.
EQ2 is a bad example because it's a dieing game.
Lotro for example started releasing content much faster after going F2P because they received more income through the CS+VIP+F2P system. Cash Shops have a great function in the main scheme and that's making games stay alive longer that should be buried.
I love that idea. If they start selling time-savers or power in their CS people should definately boycott it. However there are people who will pour a fortune into the cash shop to receive XP boosts and such if these are offered and not to mention a lot of players going shopping spree on the clothes store (mainly female gamers).
If the devs give players option to progress faster in the game by spending some real world currency they are certain to take it.
I am all man, and I can't wait for what seems to be the potential to have a truley unique character. I will pay 99c for some shorts or some shades.
I'm looking forward to TSW as well but the truth is that cash shop has probably resulted in me not purchasing a lifetime sub to the game. My fear is that the bulk of the new content development will end up going into cash shop items and a lifetime sub would just be a waste. Instead I'll sub month to month so I can observe how new content is being released.
Don't get me wrong. I am not one of those people who absolutly won't play cash shop sub or F2P games but I tend to be much more wary of them compared to straight up sub games. I have seen first hand what a cash shop does to sub games and how it alters (from my perception) the focus of the devs and don't like the trend. That's my core issue with them and it happens regradless of how fluffy the stuff in the shop is.
Here's my thoughts.
According to Funcom if you are to believe them, they have no P2W items in there.
Cosmetic and Convenience. The convenience part people might think is the "Win" part.
For Me PvE winning is more subjective. The experience is either cooperative or solo - so what exactly is winning in that regard? The items you get for the bonus packs you buy and the secret war unlock, all point back to early game content.
In TSW PvP is not a factor until the 2/3 of the game. You can not just create a character and jump into PvP. You're going to have to do some PvE content first. This means all the early game stuff will not be useful to you and that's the only place where a true P2W situation could arise.
Plus, don't forget that TSW doesn't have a traditional gear score. Talismans (formely called Chakras) will dictate your defense/toughness. This means what you wear is 100% cosmetic. I would be surprised if cosmetic items weren't their major push. People love having unique and different things to wear for their characters.
And just by tons of free crap we're getting already with the game, I would say they're going to have a lot available both in game and in the CS.
edit- for me free crap is my pre-order bonus items + all the stuff you unlock for the secret war.
Well. I can see how some believe P2W is on the horizon for TSW. Their initiate pack contains, and I quote:
"These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!"
This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2
You are forgetting that TSW doesn't have digital or boxed collector's editions.
The additional packs are to be considered as collector's editions and they provide a lot more value than for example SWTOR or GW2 in their collector's editions. In the end the packs are a slight boost to your first 5-10 hours of the game and it doesn't in my opinion translate into a P2W CS
"These high-end beginner weapons will catapult you into combat! All your characters will have access to quality weapons of every weapon type!"
This isn't part of the pre-order. This is a seperate $5 purchase. It also gives you a social pet and a faction jacket. Pessimistic players will find this offer as a turn off. Some even think that this could be what TSW might have as a monthly offer. I think it's not much to worry about; MMO's have been offering products that boost the new player experience for years now. Aside from that, I don't find it very game-breaking. It is a slight advantage, but nothing too catastrophic.
You are forgetting that TSW doesn't have digital or boxed collector's editions.
The additional packs are to be considered as collector's editions and they provide a lot more value than for example SWTOR or GW2 in their collector's editions.
No. How can you possibly consider a virtual item to be worth more than a physical object?
*Fixed*
You missed an important word. The stuff that is not mostly will give powers and a boost or whatever but it will be a money for instant gain type of thing.
Think of games that are mostly subscription required to do anything with a cash shop. Korean MMOs are out because those are no sub. SoE perhaps the best model, if you subscribe you get everything if not the cash shop just lets you get classes/races/AA/spell powers. While Funcom has powers for sale in both other games and even in TSW, they are already selling item packs for $5.
Not sure how this is even under debate, Funcom said mostly and are already selling items. It is a cash shop for gain + subscription. That is the business model. I think is it smart but is not something I would play. Judging by the PAX demo, not much was spent developing this game at all so maybe they will make money this time, which is the only goal of any video game maker.
That's what hit me, too. They said the cash shop was going to have convenience items and clothing, fine. I am a bit suspicious over exactly what items "convenience" includes but whatever.
And then I look at the sub packages and am immediately greeted by them selling me weapons and talismans in addition to clothing. Yes, they're starter level weapons and yes, they will be replaced at some point, though saying things like "high-end beginner weapons" and "capaulting you into combat" makes me wonder if I will have a lesser experience without them. These kinds of things strike me as OK in F2P models but less OK in subscription models. When WoW started selling things like mounts and pets I was bothered. In my opinion, if you can't get it in-game on your own, you shouldn't be able to simply buy it.
Add to all of this the idea that on top of my sub, they expect a sustained revenue stream of $5.25 a month per player on average (and yes, this does not mean that everyone is buying, it means ON AVERAGE). I'm wondering what they are putting in there that would make the buying of items on a regular basis so desireable.
And yes, this is all conjecture, but the game is out in six weeks and we still haven't seen the cash shop or really much information at all. And this certainly impacts my decision to pre-purchase. Just show us the damn cash shop already Funcom.
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Is that comment of "Mostly cosmetic and convenience" from the TSW developers?
"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.
Yeah is from the cash shop thread official forums first post para 4 http://www.darkdemonscrygaia.com/showthread.php?t=20339
So "mostly" is the key word then he goes on to say how great AO and AoC are that sell stuff to advance your guy by a lot.
The date on that is: 26th August 2011, 03:36 AM
Got anything more resent?......
I have have something for you
Google Fu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fFn_Msxtys
This is from this PAX, 2012 and is far more resent then what you posted.
So you are saying the developers are lying? as they are selling weapons with stats for $5 before we even see the cash shop that gives an advantage to players, it is a copy past from AoC starter packs. We know they are selling powers. Like they said already "mostly" and the original post comes from the presentation to investors, who is Tor and Erling's bosses boss.
You do have a point, they wont sell the number 1# weapon or tailsman in the game at the shop but the#2- #3 weapons and tailsman should be there sometime soon and that is what I consider "pay to win" and is how AoC's shop is set up for PvP. I consider cash shop items 90-95% the power of best end game items to be pay to win. If you don't care that is you, but realize it also kills the in game ecconomy and crafting.
Micro transactions are a good thing as long as it is not P2W. Everyone keeps focusing on the preorder crap, If you pre order you should get somthing special just like if you play the secrect war game you should get special stuff. It not new i dont know why people keep harping on the preorder stuff you can get if you choose to spend the money. SWTOR did the same thing so does wow and many other MMO''s. If you get the speacial edition or if you pre order you get a better low end item than the rest of the people who opt'd out.
The "preorder" crap does not include the $15 dollar initiate package of "high-end beginer weapons will catapult you into combat" or the $60 dollar master package claiming to "accelerate your progress to glory". both on the TSW preorder checkout page and they have nothing to do with preorders.
It seems all games are dumbing down, making less content at launch, and now selling advantages. Maybe I will just get a new hobby.
nevermind. others have already responded to you.
they are beginning weaponry included not in the cash shop but in preorder packs. Essentially the value of these weapons are a little overstated but still doesn't concur as pay2win. Preorder packs do not equal whats in the cash shop and there is much better weaponry available in game.
i think if the people who ar complaing about this should just go to a different game and stop QQing over somthing they have not even tested. Nothing points to P2W all it say is that if you want an extra special pre order pakage then let them the weapons are not going to omg kill everything in one shot so i really dont understand why the is a big deal. Now when the game launches and the store as OP weapons that can only be got by the store then start whinning till then there is no reason.