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Common Forum Fallacies

I have noticed on these forums that many people use falacious reasoning to argue their point. What common fallacies have you experienced on these forums and in what context were they used?

 

I'll start off with an example:

"Previous games X, Y, and Z were 'hyped' and were disappointments. Therefore all games with high 'hype' will be disappointments."

This argument is an example of hasty generalization. Even though previous games were 'hyped' and disappointments, that does not necessarily mean that all future games that are 'hyped' will be disappointments.

I'll even give a real life example that disproves this reasoning. Lebron James was a very 'hyped' basketball player even before leaving high school. After many great statistical seasons in the NBA with many accomplishments including 2x MVP awards, it's generally safe to conclude that Lebron James has matched his pre-NBA 'hype' and some can argue he has even exceeded his  'hype'.

Comments

  • stragen001stragen001 Member UncommonPosts: 1,720

    I completely agree that just because previous games that have been hyped, have been a disappointment, does NOT mean that any game that is hyped will be a disappointment. That is flawed logic.

    HOWEVER

    Your example is also flawed. I dont know anything about basketball so I cant supply examples, but I am sure that there are many many more players that were very hyped before going into the NBA, that WERE disappointments. Just because 1 person DID meet the hype, it doesnt make that the rule.

    Statistically, it is more likely that Hyped NBA players, and also Hyped MMOs WILL be a disappointment, but it certainly does not mean that ALL will, or will not be. 

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • ThorkuneThorkune Member UncommonPosts: 1,969

    I think that's the nature of the beast really. People tend to be skeptical of the unknown. Your choice of Lebron James is a good example.

     

    "Now back to our regularly scheduled game bashing and trolling on mmorpg.com...Nancy"

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,964

    Originally posted by stragen001

    I completely agree that just because previous games that have been hyped, have been a disappointment, does NOT mean that any game that is hyped will be a disappointment. That is flawed logic.

    HOWEVER

    Your example is also flawed. I dont know anything about basketball so I cant supply examples, but I am sure that there are many many more players that were very hyped before going into the NBA, that WERE disappointments. Just because 1 person DID meet the hype, it doesnt make that the rule.

    Statistically, it is more likely that Hyped NBA players, and also Hyped MMOs WILL be a disappointment, but it certainly does not mean that ALL will, or will not be. 

    When one is gambling (or writing insurance actuary tables) you play the percentages, and the odds are most new MMORPG's will not be WOW killers or live up anywhere near the hype.

    So it is not flawed to say that a new title is likely to be a failure, but there are definitely indicators that can more firmly predict where things will end up.

    I'd say GW2 shows strong signs of being a financial success and new take on the genre that a lot of players have long been waiting for. (I'm not necessarily one of them btw, so no accusations of being a fanboi please). 

    Meanwhile a title like TSW has some doubtful indicators at this point in time, so predicting its success is more challenging.

     

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Originally posted by stragen001

    Your example is also flawed. I dont know anything about basketball so I cant supply examples, but I am sure that there are many many more players that were very hyped before going into the NBA, that WERE disappointments. Just because 1 person DID meet the hype, it doesnt make that the rule.

    I didn't say that there weren't 'hyped' players that were disappointments. I only gave an example of a player that was hyped and was not a disappointment (statistically) which disproves the fallacy that i gave as an example. I can think of many draft picks that were disappointments like Kwame Brown (picked 1st), Greg Oden (picked 1st), and Adam Morrison (picked 3rd). I can also think of more examples of basketball players that exceeded expectations like Kobe Bryant (picked 13th), Steve Nash (picked 15th), Carlos Boozer (2nd round picked 35th). Anyways this is kinda getting off topic :P. The point of the thread is to list some fallacies that people use in these forums with the context they are used in.

  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,095
    Here is to the hope that Guild Wars 2 is LeBron of MMORPGs:

    Cheers!

    Otherwise agreed with second post. Statistically there are bound to be more failures than successes. The proof? LeBron, Derrick(Rose), Air(Jordan), Carmelo(Anthony). But there are countless players that were hyped through the roof only to end playing in Washington Wizards(or Charlotte Bobcats). I mentioned FOUR people that EXCEEDED their hype, but there is a LEGION of people that fell VICTIM to their own hype. The same applies to MMORPGs. Sure, we have WoW, Rift and Guild Wars 2(soon to be). We also have APB, WAR, AoC, Vanguard, Aion, TERA(soon), SWTOR, ST:O, LoTRO, and the list goes on and on and on.

    In other news: Happy Planet Earth's day!
  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

  • LarsaLarsa Member Posts: 990

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

     

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    Originally posted by Larsa

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

     

    Uhm... but they haven't talked about having any P2W items in their cash shop. Whether you view XP boosts as P2W is own business (It is a a gray area for me).

    Your example stinks of troll with the smiley face an all.

    Here's a fallacy:

    One game with cash shop was P2W so all games that have cash shops are P2W.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Originally posted by Larsa

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

    Amazing that it only took 8 posts for somebody to make a p2w comment. Regardless of your intentions, this is true. Even though GW1 had no p2w cash shop, that does not necessarily mean that gw2 will not have a p2w cash shop. It certainly could also be a cosmetic cash shop that is not p2w that Anet has repeatedly try to reassure the fanbase.

    Until the contents of the cash shop are revealed by Anet, it's impossible to conclude with certainty either way.

    Quirhid stole the example i was gonna use next :P.

  • stragen001stragen001 Member UncommonPosts: 1,720

    Another Fallacy:

    MMOs were better back in the day. No they werent. You just have rose tinted glasses. 

    Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  • raistlinmraistlinm Member Posts: 673

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    I have noticed on these forums that many people use falacious reasoning to argue their point. What common fallacies have you experienced on these forums and in what context were they used?

     

    I'll start off with an example:

    "Previous games X, Y, and Z were 'hyped' and were disappointments. Therefore all games with high 'hype' will be disappointments."

    This argument is an example of hasty generalization. Even though previous games were 'hyped' and disappointments, that does not necessarily mean that all future games that are 'hyped' will be disappointments.

    I'll even give a real life example that disproves this reasoning. Lebron James was a very 'hyped' basketball player even before leaving high school. After many great statistical seasons in the NBA with many accomplishments including 2x MVP awards, it's generally safe to conclude that Lebron James has matched his pre-NBA 'hype' and some can argue he has even exceeded his  'hype'.

    Here's a good one I've been pointing out all day long.

    "since my experience does not match your you have to prove what you are saying is true or I'll call you a liar."

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668

    Originally posted by stragen001

    Another Fallacy:

    MMOs were better back in the day. No they werent. You just have rose tinted glasses. 

    Not a fallacy, no structure, it's plain opinion.

  • LarsaLarsa Member Posts: 990

    Originally posted by Quirhid

    Originally posted by Larsa


    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

     

    Uhm... but they haven't talked about having any P2W items in their cash shop. Whether you view XP boosts as P2W is own business (It is a a gray area for me).

    Your example stinks of troll with the smiley face an all.

    Here's a fallacy:

    One game with cash shop was P2W so all games that have cash shops are P2W.



    You probably didn't notice it, but this thread is about forum fallacies and not about GW2.

    But how you jump to conclusions about my views is another fine example.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • DerpybirdDerpybird Member Posts: 991

    Originally posted by Larsa

    Originally posted by Quirhid


    Originally posted by Larsa


    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

     

    Uhm... but they haven't talked about having any P2W items in their cash shop. Whether you view XP boosts as P2W is own business (It is a a gray area for me).

    Your example stinks of troll with the smiley face an all.

    Here's a fallacy:

    One game with cash shop was P2W so all games that have cash shops are P2W.



    You probably didn't notice it, but this thread is about forum fallacies and not about GW2.

    But how you jump to conclusions about my views is another fine example.

    Then why did you make a post specifically about GW2? And since you feel people are misinterpreting your comment, perhaps you want to clarify now?

    "Loading screens" are not "instances".
    Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  • KehdarKehdar Member UncommonPosts: 441

    The most common fallacy on this board is the mind project fallacy. 

    From wikipedia: occurs when one takes for sure that the way he sees the world reflects the way the world really is, going as far as assuming the real existence of imagined objects. Another form of the fallacy is when one assumes his own lack of knowledge about how the things really are as meaning that things are indeterminate.

  • LarsaLarsa Member Posts: 990

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Originally posted by Larsa



    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

    Amazing that it only took 8 posts for somebody to make a p2w comment. Regardless of your intentions, this is true. Even though GW1 had no p2w cash shop, that does not necessarily mean that gw2 will not have a p2w cash shop. It certainly could also be a cosmetic cash shop that is not p2w that Anet has repeatedly try to reassure the fanbase.

    Until the contents of the cash shop are revealed by Anet, it's impossible to conclude with certainty either way.

    Quirhid stole the example i was gonna use next :P.

    Please note that I made no comment at all about PW2 (but you claim I did). I mentioned a fallacy that has been posted on the GW2 boards quite a number of times. Funny how that oneliner about a frequently used fallacy has some people coming out calling me troll and questioning my intentions.

    Fans have so thin skin sometimes ...

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • AusareAusare Member Posts: 850

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    I have noticed on these forums that many people use falacious reasoning to argue their point. What common fallacies have you experienced on these forums and in what context were they used?

     

    I'll start off with an example:

    "Previous games X, Y, and Z were 'hyped' and were disappointments. Therefore all games with high 'hype' will be disappointments."

    This argument is an example of hasty generalization. Even though previous games were 'hyped' and disappointments, that does not necessarily mean that all future games that are 'hyped' will be disappointments.

    I'll even give a real life example that disproves this reasoning. Lebron James was a very 'hyped' basketball player even before leaving high school. After many great statistical seasons in the NBA with many accomplishments including 2x MVP awards, it's generally safe to conclude that Lebron James has matched his pre-NBA 'hype' and some can argue he has even exceeded his  'hype'.

    Does Lebron James have a championship?  Case closed.

  • LarsaLarsa Member Posts: 990

    Originally posted by Charlizzard

    Originally posted by Larsa


    Originally posted by Quirhid


    Originally posted by Larsa


    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Another fallacy:

    If a game is p2p, then it will have a mature community.

    X game is not p2p.

    Therefore X game will not have a mature community.

    This is an example of denying the antecedent. X game can still have a mature community regardless of the payment model.

    Another fallacy: GW1 had no P2W cash shop, therefore GW2 won't have one too.

    :)

     

    Uhm... but they haven't talked about having any P2W items in their cash shop. Whether you view XP boosts as P2W is own business (It is a a gray area for me).

    Your example stinks of troll with the smiley face an all.

    Here's a fallacy:

    One game with cash shop was P2W so all games that have cash shops are P2W.



    You probably didn't notice it, but this thread is about forum fallacies and not about GW2.

    But how you jump to conclusions about my views is another fine example.

    Then why did you make a post specifically about GW2? And since you feel people are misinterpreting your comment, perhaps you want to clarify now?



    From the original post:

    "I have noticed on these forums that many people use falacious reasoning to argue their point. What common fallacies have you experienced on these forums and in what context were they used?"

    I mentioned a common fallacy on these forums and mentioned the context of it - just what the original poster wanted.

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Originally posted by Larsa

    Please note that I made no comment at all about PW2 (but you claim I did). I mentioned a fallacy that has been posted on the GW2 boards quite a number of times. Funny how that oneliner about a frequently used fallacy has some people coming out calling me troll and questioning my intentions.

    Fans have so thin skin sometimes ...

    You made a comment (post) mentioning p2w, so you did... And I even agreed with you that it is a fallacy to conclude that gw2 will not be p2w based on the information that GW1 was not p2w. Relax.

     

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818

    Originally posted by Ausare

    Does Lebron James have a championship?  Case closed.

    You clearly don't get this thread or team sports....

     

    Micheal Jordan one of the best players of all time couldn't win a championship until his team played at a championship level. No matter how many high scoring tripple doubles he put up they still lost to better teams.

    Championships go to the best team not the best player.

    It is a common fallacie that one player can carry a whole team though.

  • F0rumLurkerF0rumLurker Member Posts: 58

    Back on topic:

    1. Person A: MMO X will have fun combat because the lack of holy trinity will allow for more involved gameplay and more freedom with class choices.



    2. Person B: MMO X will be dpsfest with no roles.



    3. Person B: Why would i want to play MMO X with its boring dpsfest combat?

    This is an example of Straw man Argument. Person B fails to address Person A's arguments by oversimplifying those arguments and makes a conclusion based on the distorted arguments.

     

    Perhaps i shouldve named the thread "Common MMO Fallacies" to prevent it being moved to Off topic :x

  • DamonVileDamonVile Member CommonPosts: 4,818

    Originally posted by F0rumLurker

    Back on topic:

     

    Perhaps i shouldve named the thread "Common MMO Fallacies" to prevent it being moved to Off topic :x

    It was on topic ;)

    I was refering to people who think one player can carry a raid/pvp team ect.

     

    your topic was a bit more about design I suppose, than actual game play.

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