I do think it is an unrealistic expectation. Certainly, you can demand or expect each new game to be better than the one before it, but reality has shown us that it isn't true. From time to time, I see a new game on the horizon, and I hope that this time it will be different. However, I usually find some things are better, some are worse, and some stay the same. If it's fun, then I play it until it's no longer fun for me.
In regard to the rest of your reply, I wasn't condoning the acceptance of mediocrity or saying people should be understanding with game studios. It's a business for them, sure, but it's a product for us. If we don't like what we've read, seen, or heard about the product, then we can decide not to make the purchase. At least, that's how I see it.
This is just about any game and many folks don't see it this way. You obviously played long enough to see many features introduced and then applied in other MMOs and some even working out better than others.
I do think it is an unrealistic expectation. Certainly, you can demand or expect each new game to be better than the one before it, but reality has shown us that it isn't true. From time to time, I see a new game on the horizon, and I hope that this time it will be different. However, I usually find some things are better, some are worse, and some stay the same. If it's fun, then I play it until it's no longer fun for me.
In regard to the rest of your reply, I wasn't condoning the acceptance of mediocrity or saying people should be understanding with game studios. It's a business for them, sure, but it's a product for us. If we don't like what we've read, seen, or heard about the product, then we can decide not to make the purchase. At least, that's how I see it.
Fair enough.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I play both World of Warcraft and Star Wars: The Old Republic. I was questing in TOR with my friend who loves TOR and dislikes WoW. I was mentioning some of the things that I felt were shortcomings in TOR and his defense was that World of Warcraft had these same issues three months after launch. Here's my question.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? In my opinion, the answer is no. WoW was launched in 2004 and I wold assume that enough time has passed where a game wouldn't launch seven years later with the same mistakes or shortcomings at that previous game? Am I wrong?
In order for an argument to be valid the premises must be true. So I guess the argument would go like this:
World of Warcraft started basic
SWTOR started basic
Therefore these games started the same way.
That argument is valid and it is also a valid comparison. Is the argument fair? Well that's kind of dumb. Fair and unfair arguments are the pussification of symbolic logic. It's as if there is no longer right and wrong but instead we have opinions and since they're opinions they can be fair and unfair.
So if we want to talk about fair, I don't think it is "fair" to compare a game that has been released for 8 years to one that has just released. I say "fair" because it is seen as "unfair" to compare an older more established genre to a newer one. BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHO YOU SHOULD COMPARE IT TO.
No one buys a Coke Zero without comparing it to Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi.
So here is a fair comparison.
World of Warcraft took three years to make.
SWTOR took five years to make.
World of Warcraft at launch had no content.
SWTOR at launch had tones of content.
World of Warcraft has been around for eight years.
SWTOR has been around for four months.
There ya go
A "fair" comparison.
It doesn't make you feel any better though. It is the responsibility of a newer brand to "wow" consumers and beat out existing brands. In the MMO world this is just really hard to do.
I play both World of Warcraft and Star Wars: The Old Republic. I was questing in TOR with my friend who loves TOR and dislikes WoW. I was mentioning some of the things that I felt were shortcomings in TOR and his defense was that World of Warcraft had these same issues three months after launch. Here's my question.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? In my opinion, the answer is no. WoW was launched in 2004 and I wold assume that enough time has passed where a game wouldn't launch seven years later with the same mistakes or shortcomings at that previous game? Am I wrong?
You can't reason with him. He just made it clear that he acknowledges the problems SWTOR. He implied that SWTOR is less of a developed product than the current WoW when he used that defense. He is more than likely either powered by a fanatic bias for Bioware/Star Wars or he is just tired of WoW. Either way he isn't going to budge in his opinion.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument?
How long is the person planning to play? If you are committing yourself to playing for a year or two, then it actually is valid to look at what the game will evolve into rather than just what it is now. If you are only planning to play for a month or so, then it's not valid - you might as well just wait a year or two and play then.
However, brand loyalty tends to trump all rational argument. I tend to put arguing about which MMO one should be playing in the same category as arguing politics, religion or coke-vs-pepsi. There just isn't anywhere constructive for a discussion to go once people have made up their minds.
You can't reason with him. He just made it clear that he acknowledges the problems SWTOR. He implied that SWTOR is less of a developed product than the current WoW when he used that defense. He is more than likely either powered by a fanatic bias for Bioware/Star Wars or he is just tired of WoW. Either way he isn't going to budge in his opinion.
This.
It's probably a WoW grudge and it has little to do with SWTOR.
He could be playing "Steaming Pile-O-Turds Online" and it would be better than WoW at this point.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? In my opinion, the answer is no. WoW was launched in 2004 and I wold assume that enough time has passed where a game wouldn't launch seven years later with the same mistakes or shortcomings at that previous game? Am I wrong?
I'm not critical of SWTORs lack of polish. I haven't played it. However, I tend to agree with you. Rift, for example, seems to have done very well for itself with reasonable polish achieved quickly after release.
What I find inexcusable is when after years, a game never resolves release bugs. To me that's developer/publisher who is either incompetent or really doesn't care that the bugs exist.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
What are my issues with The Old Republic? Honestly, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly. There are certain games that I purchased and after playing for a bit, I could tell that I would play for at least six months. And while I think TOR is a good game, I don't see it as a long-term game. While the game grabbed me early on and I love the story aspect of the game, it just feels like everything else just sort of falls short but like I said, I can't pinpoint it exactly.
I don't really do PvP, so I have no real opinion on that. The warzones I have played have seemed okay although I'm not sure about all levels being in the same warzone. Rearlly start to feel sorry for that level 11 guy *laughs* And maybe it is a matter that Blizzard has amassed such a huge and well-executed game over the course of seven years. I really don't know but the truth is that I probably would have quit playing TOR after sixty days or so if my friend wasn't playing the game. I like the game but I'm not in love with it and maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I like the game well enough that I'm waiting to see what happens in the 1.2 update to see if I still feel like my future in the game is still short term but it just seems like seven years is a long time to be making the same mistakes that a game like WoW made in 2004. At last, in my opiniion.
But now, my post seems like I dislike the game and that's not my intention at all because I don't. I think it's a decent game with a lot going for it but it's short-comings should have been avoided, in general.
What I find inexcusable is when after years, a game never resolves release bugs. To me that's developer/publisher who is either incompetent or really doesn't care that the bugs exist.
Depends on the bugs. But Blizzard carried release bugs for the at least the lifetime of "Vanilla" (vanishing boats and the Charge "bug", longer if you count the Vanish bug).
In the end, what made it through was fairly trivial in relation to the rest of the game's magnitude.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? ...
I didn't play WoW or SWToR, not my type of game.
But from reading the forums alone I get the impression that SWToR players have developed an unhealthy obsession to constantly compare their game to WoW - as if a game would be any better or worse when another developer 8 years ago had made the same design decisions to create a product with mass appeal.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I play both World of Warcraft and Star Wars: The Old Republic. I was questing in TOR with my friend who loves TOR and dislikes WoW. I was mentioning some of the things that I felt were shortcomings in TOR and his defense was that World of Warcraft had these same issues three months after launch. Here's my question.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? In my opinion, the answer is no. WoW was launched in 2004 and I wold assume that enough time has passed where a game wouldn't launch seven years later with the same mistakes or shortcomings at that previous game? Am I wrong?
Well, on one hand could one assume that 7 1/2 years should mean something so comparing both games 3 months after they are out might not be fair. On the other hand is comparing a game that spent 7 1/2 years adding content and polishing up the mechanics with a 3 months old game unfair as well.
I don't think there ever could be a totally fair comparision with those 2 games, they don't exactly have the same focus either. TOR is more focused on telling a story while Wows focus is killing stuff for loot.
It is clear that Wow have added some stuff during the years that are good and might work fine in TOR but they are different. The only thing really worth comparing is how fun you have when you play the different games.
Is compaing The Old Republic three months after launch to World of Warcraft three months after launch a fair and valid argument? ...
I didn't play WoW or SWToR, not my type of game.
But from reading the forums alone I get the impression that SWToR players have developed an unhealthy obsession to constantly compare their game to WoW - as if a game would be any better or worse when another developer 8 years ago had made the same design decisions to create a product with mass appeal.
Comparisons to WoW can generally be explained by WoW's domination of the maretplace for (approaching) a decade. Doesn't matter what other game you're discussing, comparison to WoW appears sooner or later.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What I find inexcusable is when after years, a game never resolves release bugs. To me that's developer/publisher who is either incompetent or really doesn't care that the bugs exist.
Depends on the bugs. But Blizzard carried release bugs for the at least the lifetime of "Vanilla" (vanishing boats and the Charge "bug", longer if you count the Vanish bug).
In the end, what made it through was fairly trivial in relation to the rest of the game's magnitude.
I agree. There was one in early BC also. Linear prediction vector was off and distant mobs would sawtooth above then below the terrain surface. Personally I classify them as cosmetic.
To me a bug-bug is a broken feature that is installed but not functional. Those "bug" me :-) I found one in Torque the other day. The version I use was in development for approximately 5 years and an installed feature in the world editor GUI has no code to make it work. None.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
No it's not a valid argument... we don't compare a "Model T" to a car manaufactured today , as it would be an argument based on " False equivelence". The two are not "equal" thus they should not be compared
PLUS even if you did compare them it would still be an invalid argument
SWTOR is "Broken"...WoW was "Broken" at the same time in their development.. WoW was broken THUS SWTOR should be broken ? NO!
WoW's status, then or now, is irrelevent to the status of SWTOR.. Bringing up WoW's status is a "red herring". If WoW's status changes...Does SWTOR status change? NO , then why are the two being compared?
Your friends argument is flawed in many different ways.
Comments
This is just about any game and many folks don't see it this way. You obviously played long enough to see many features introduced and then applied in other MMOs and some even working out better than others.
Fair enough.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This should be your sig!
You can't reason with him. He just made it clear that he acknowledges the problems SWTOR. He implied that SWTOR is less of a developed product than the current WoW when he used that defense. He is more than likely either powered by a fanatic bias for Bioware/Star Wars or he is just tired of WoW. Either way he isn't going to budge in his opinion.
How long is the person planning to play? If you are committing yourself to playing for a year or two, then it actually is valid to look at what the game will evolve into rather than just what it is now. If you are only planning to play for a month or so, then it's not valid - you might as well just wait a year or two and play then.
However, brand loyalty tends to trump all rational argument. I tend to put arguing about which MMO one should be playing in the same category as arguing politics, religion or coke-vs-pepsi. There just isn't anywhere constructive for a discussion to go once people have made up their minds.
This.
It's probably a WoW grudge and it has little to do with SWTOR.
He could be playing "Steaming Pile-O-Turds Online" and it would be better than WoW at this point.
Wait, did I just repeat myself there?
I'm not critical of SWTORs lack of polish. I haven't played it. However, I tend to agree with you. Rift, for example, seems to have done very well for itself with reasonable polish achieved quickly after release.
What I find inexcusable is when after years, a game never resolves release bugs. To me that's developer/publisher who is either incompetent or really doesn't care that the bugs exist.
What are my issues with The Old Republic? Honestly, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly. There are certain games that I purchased and after playing for a bit, I could tell that I would play for at least six months. And while I think TOR is a good game, I don't see it as a long-term game. While the game grabbed me early on and I love the story aspect of the game, it just feels like everything else just sort of falls short but like I said, I can't pinpoint it exactly.
I don't really do PvP, so I have no real opinion on that. The warzones I have played have seemed okay although I'm not sure about all levels being in the same warzone. Rearlly start to feel sorry for that level 11 guy *laughs* And maybe it is a matter that Blizzard has amassed such a huge and well-executed game over the course of seven years. I really don't know but the truth is that I probably would have quit playing TOR after sixty days or so if my friend wasn't playing the game. I like the game but I'm not in love with it and maybe I'm expecting too much too soon. I like the game well enough that I'm waiting to see what happens in the 1.2 update to see if I still feel like my future in the game is still short term but it just seems like seven years is a long time to be making the same mistakes that a game like WoW made in 2004. At last, in my opiniion.
But now, my post seems like I dislike the game and that's not my intention at all because I don't. I think it's a decent game with a lot going for it but it's short-comings should have been avoided, in general.
Depends on the bugs. But Blizzard carried release bugs for the at least the lifetime of "Vanilla" (vanishing boats and the Charge "bug", longer if you count the Vanish bug).
In the end, what made it through was fairly trivial in relation to the rest of the game's magnitude.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I didn't play WoW or SWToR, not my type of game.
But from reading the forums alone I get the impression that SWToR players have developed an unhealthy obsession to constantly compare their game to WoW - as if a game would be any better or worse when another developer 8 years ago had made the same design decisions to create a product with mass appeal.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Well, on one hand could one assume that 7 1/2 years should mean something so comparing both games 3 months after they are out might not be fair. On the other hand is comparing a game that spent 7 1/2 years adding content and polishing up the mechanics with a 3 months old game unfair as well.
I don't think there ever could be a totally fair comparision with those 2 games, they don't exactly have the same focus either. TOR is more focused on telling a story while Wows focus is killing stuff for loot.
It is clear that Wow have added some stuff during the years that are good and might work fine in TOR but they are different. The only thing really worth comparing is how fun you have when you play the different games.
Ah, that game was pretty crappy...
Comparisons to WoW can generally be explained by WoW's domination of the maretplace for (approaching) a decade. Doesn't matter what other game you're discussing, comparison to WoW appears sooner or later.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I agree. There was one in early BC also. Linear prediction vector was off and distant mobs would sawtooth above then below the terrain surface. Personally I classify them as cosmetic.
To me a bug-bug is a broken feature that is installed but not functional. Those "bug" me :-) I found one in Torque the other day. The version I use was in development for approximately 5 years and an installed feature in the world editor GUI has no code to make it work. None.
No it's not a valid argument... we don't compare a "Model T" to a car manaufactured today , as it would be an argument based on " False equivelence". The two are not "equal" thus they should not be compared
PLUS even if you did compare them it would still be an invalid argument
SWTOR is "Broken"...WoW was "Broken" at the same time in their development.. WoW was broken THUS SWTOR should be broken ? NO!
WoW's status, then or now, is irrelevent to the status of SWTOR.. Bringing up WoW's status is a "red herring". If WoW's status changes...Does SWTOR status change? NO , then why are the two being compared?
Your friends argument is flawed in many different ways.