I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
Well... Yes, but no...
So you are boosted to lvl 80 with HP and your skills and traits are automatically unlocked if you want to do battle of khylo for instance. This is becuase they wanted for everyone to be at the same position in PvP instantly, so they could battle against eachother and win based upon skill mostly. (This changes when you actually reach lvl 80 and get your own gear - which is slightly better than the one you get. But you could still loose from a lvl 1 guy who's boosted to 80 and plays way better).
BUT... If you want to go into WvWvW then you're only given HP equal to lvl 80s HP and you're not given any armor, weapons or do you get skills and traits unlocked... Basically - you're still lvl 1 but you have HP as if you're lvl 80. So you have to unlock your skills, traits and level up...
The main difference between this PVP zones is:
-you can gain XP from WvWvW but you can't gain XP in Battle of Khylo
-you get every skill unlocked and every trait in battle of khylo , you don't get unlocked skills and traits in WvWvW (you gotta do it yourself)
-you get armor and weapons in BoK, you don't get anything in WvWvW
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
So...just like SWTOR...
EEK! I hope not!
Never entered Ilum, did they bump everyone up to max level there in SWTOR?
However, its not the same as being a level 80 and zoning into the mists. Once you zone out you are back to what ever level you were, and obviously once you are 80 in good gear you will be better off than someone who is level 1 stepping in with nothing and being buffed to make it a competition.
If you check out some Mists PVP vids you can see next to their level an (80)
So it would appear like (80) 15 as it does in this video.
So...just like SWTOR...
EEK! I hope not!
Never entered Ilum, did they bump everyone up to max level there in SWTOR?
Wasn't any point he was alone there
It was lagging like hell as well, so no point being there anyhow...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Tbh, if we did take this thread towards the merits of the genre heading in an E-sport direction, we'd at least be getting this topic back partially on track.
What Rizel also said about WvW and providing the link to the repository of all GW2 info, also leant itself to the answer I feel though. Basically the answer was, "while what you (op) are saying is true, that is not the whole story and is only one facet of PvP. Here is the information so you can learn about it for yourself."
I guess mine was edited because the post I quoted was deleted.
Yeah I agree with point 2.
Point 3: fair enough, we all see things how we see them, we have no clue how the op does as he hasn't been back.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by DistopiaMO. So I can't agree the thread has been answered in the way you're suggesting.
Post 8 answered this thread just fine. Short of the op coming back and posing a new question, what more could be added than what was already stated by Rizelstar?
Edit: I do wonder though what you said in post 13 to get a mod edit?
Something about FPS guru being elsewhere .
As for what Rizel said, a lot could be said really, as is E-sport really the direction this genre should be going? But I'll leave that for a different discussion.
Lol. Had a change of heart then I guess.
Tbh, if we did take this thread towards the merits of the genre heading in an E-sport direction, we'd at least be getting this topic back partially on track.
What Rizel also said about WvW and providing the link to the repository of all GW2 info, also leant itself to the answer I feel though. Basically the answer was, "while what you (op) are saying is true, that is not the whole story and is only one facet of PvP. Here is the information so you can learn about it for yourself."
The problem with MMO's taking the esport route is that the modern FPS already does that, and to be honest even the best MMO battleground is technically vastly inferior in many ways to the modern FPS. I've listed at least 10 reasons or so in another thread and I don't want to rehash it, but MMO battlegrounds are essentially late 1990's quality FPS games (and I'm not talking about graphics).
If an MMO wants to actually deliver a high quality esport I might look at it, but I don't see any decent battlegrounds being delivered anytime soon. For me MMO battlegrounds is one of the worst developments in the history of MMO PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Level based brackets in instanced battlegrounds has always been a stupid idea.
1) it artificially separates your populations. Thus screwing up your queueing
2) it serves no purpose, usually the only difference is that the lower brackets have less abilities. Thus making your balancing a nightmare and the gameplay aborted.
ArenaNet is smart not to box themselves into a corner that is guaranteed to make the eperience worse. You should be angry that any game ever accepted the idea to begin with, since level based brackets are assinine and coutner productive in so many ways its amazing and it offers absolutely no objective benefit other than preserving a completely false sense of progression.
If you are trying to say that "only 2/3rds of the game is progression based RPG and as such the game is less RPG than other MMORPGS" than I would agree with you.
But I also don't see that as a bad thing.
I'm torn on the subject, I guess in the end it comes down to which takes off and gets the most love from the devlopment team. WHich I have a feeling will be the more BG oriented form of PVP sadly.
Perhaps, but what kind of love would you be hoping for for W v W?
Or do you mean more like bug fixing time in terms of triage?
Like if the BG type is more popular the bugs there will be given higher priority?
As long as they don't kill open world PvP, I could care less about the arena stuff, I will play a FPS if I wanted a 'esport', I am tired of scenarios (but may do some, who knows), but I prefer the chaos of open world PvP, especially with 3 factions.
Let's not jump down this guy's throat just because he may be unfamiliar with the game. For me, part of the reason I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 (and I'm sure this applies to many of you), is that it challenges us to think differently about MMOs. If you're a fan of the game, you've got to understand that a lot of traditional MMO gamers are going to react this way when they hear some of these things.
I realize you guys get hit with a lot of craziness here in our GW2 forums and so you may be a bit frustrated or suspicious someone is trolling, but frankly it takes less effort to give someone the benefit of the doubt and just answer their question (or point them to a handy thread or article that does). The guy made a perfectly reasonable post. Most of us are trained to think of MMOs and even RPGs this way, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to see things differently if explained to or otherwise informed.
TL;DR: Expect a lot of people to not "get it" about GW2, and some of them may not ever get it, or won't get it until they try the game themselves. If you truly care about growing the GW2 community, your best is to be inclusive when these sorts of questions pop up.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm scolding you guys, but I've been seeing a lot of this lately and I wanted to chime in.
Or even people can just disagree with a view based on the the available evidence, rather than be misinforminated and need education to achieve the required groupthink.
Absolutely. Why would anyone believe that people that who disagree with something the game does just "doesn't get it", and needs to be indoctrinated to see the light of truth and start mindlessly droning "Everything GW2 does is awesome."
There are quite a few people that "get it" about what GW2 is doing. They get it, they just don't like it, and that's a legitimate opinion to hold.
The OP is pretty much factually correct in his statements. Opinions will vary on whether those facts about the game are a good thing, or a bad thing, according to each person's preference. Neither will be wrong, and it doesn't mean that someone with the audacity to say *GASP* something bad about GW2 "doesn't get it".
As far as I'm concerned, I was initially excited about GW2, but the more I hear, the more I believe it's an amalgamation of everything that has been going wrong with MMORPGs over the last 10 years. Creating an EZ-mode insta-max level toy PvP character for instance-based e-sport PvP would be just one such thing.
I think what has been going wrong with MMORPGs nowadays is the fact that they allow low level characters to battle against high level characters even when they won't win. Wouldn't you agree?
Not at all, if we're talking about an actual RPG, especially one that's supposedly set in a persistent world with a virtual society that matters.
In an FPS or e-sport game, everyone being equal makes sense. That's never been the main focus of an RPG, however. In fact, it runs counter to the point of an RPG.
Exactly why I will get to play GW2. I have a busy family life (baby is screaming at me even now lol). I know that because GW2 is not an mmorpg I will be able to log in, bump around the BG stuff and log out. There is no need to build a community or be a part of some grand RPG plan. I love THAT kind of game, but they haven't made one of those in a while (I guess RIft but its so red team v blue team its just not old school enough for me but that's another argument).
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
Originally posted by nomatics856 I thought mmorpgs were about progression, if I automatically wanted to get into the fray of things and have a game about 100% skill, wouldnt I play a twitched based FPS, mmorpgs should be 50% skill, 50% progression
Yeah, for noobs.
This is the news I was waiting for. I don't need levels ticking to tell me I've progressed. Just give me a win / loss column and that's it.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Level based brackets in instanced battlegrounds has always been a stupid idea.
1) it artificially separates your populations. Thus screwing up your queueing
2) it serves no purpose, usually the only difference is that the lower brackets have less abilities. Thus making your balancing a nightmare and the gameplay aborted.
ArenaNet is smart not to box themselves into a corner that is guaranteed to make the eperience worse. You should be angry that any game ever accepted the idea to begin with, since level based brackets are assinine and coutner productive in so many ways its amazing and it offers absolutely no objective benefit other than preserving a completely false sense of progression.
I agree.
At the end of the day, you just can't have real, competitive PvP if you want to use your PvE character. It's just not happening. Certain people will start each match with tons of advantages that other players don't have. Once you realize this is happening...it kind of shatters the competitive illusion.
Open world PvP...it's not that much of a big deal because open world isn't about having a fair competition.
But yeah, MMORPG progression and BG PvP have always been at odds. IMO, it's best to just separate them completely.
Let's not jump down this guy's throat just because he may be unfamiliar with the game. For me, part of the reason I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 (and I'm sure this applies to many of you), is that it challenges us to think differently about MMOs. If you're a fan of the game, you've got to understand that a lot of traditional MMO gamers are going to react this way when they hear some of these things.
I realize you guys get hit with a lot of craziness here in our GW2 forums and so you may be a bit frustrated or suspicious someone is trolling, but frankly it takes less effort to give someone the benefit of the doubt and just answer their question (or point them to a handy thread or article that does). The guy made a perfectly reasonable post. Most of us are trained to think of MMOs and even RPGs this way, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to see things differently if explained to or otherwise informed.
TL;DR: Expect a lot of people to not "get it" about GW2, and some of them may not ever get it, or won't get it until they try the game themselves. If you truly care about growing the GW2 community, your best is to be inclusive when these sorts of questions pop up.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm scolding you guys, but I've been seeing a lot of this lately and I wanted to chime in.
Or even people can just disagree with a view based on the the available evidence, rather than be misinforminated and need education to achieve the required groupthink.
Absolutely. Why would anyone believe that people that who disagree with something the game does just "doesn't get it", and needs to be indoctrinated to see the light of truth and start mindlessly droning "Everything GW2 does is awesome."
There are quite a few people that "get it" about what GW2 is doing. They get it, they just don't like it, and that's a legitimate opinion to hold.
The OP is pretty much factually correct in his statements. Opinions will vary on whether those facts about the game are a good thing, or a bad thing, according to each person's preference. Neither will be wrong, and it doesn't mean that someone with the audacity to say *GASP* something bad about GW2 "doesn't get it".
As far as I'm concerned, I was initially excited about GW2, but the more I hear, the more I believe it's an amalgamation of everything that has been going wrong with MMORPGs over the last 10 years. Creating an EZ-mode insta-max level toy PvP character for instance-based e-sport PvP would be just one such thing.
I think what has been going wrong with MMORPGs nowadays is the fact that they allow low level characters to battle against high level characters even when they won't win. Wouldn't you agree?
Not at all, if we're talking about an actual RPG, especially one that's supposedly set in a persistent world with a virtual society that matters.
In an FPS or e-sport game, everyone being equal makes sense. That's never been the main focus of an RPG, however. In fact, it runs counter to the point of an RPG.
Exactly, the structured PvP is separated from the main game for a reason. The RPG part of the game isn't set in a way that everyone is equal and this even true in World Vs World where the level 2s are set to 80 because even though they are max level they still do not have access to skills or traits that a level 80 would have, it just enables them to not be one-shotted.
OMG someone is doing something different than EQ/WoW/WAR/AoC/TOR/EQ2 etc. etc.
No way it's going to work, I mean, everyone here just LOVES the fact that all these MMOs do things the same way right?!
we want something different until is turns out to be something different!
I know, it seems a lot of people were so let down by SW:TOR BECAUSE it wasn't different. But now that something is coming up with the possibility to be different, it is drawing a ton of scrutiny.
Hating the cool new thing is popular. but they don't think of themselves as sheep doing that.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
If you like esport why bother with a tab-target MMO with 2D battlefields, lame cover systems, no environment material diversity, very little map/gametype variety, no long-range tactics, and lamer graphics?
FPSers do the type of esport you like MUCH better.
Who are you to tell someone what they like and what they don't like.
I'm torn on the subject, I guess in the end it comes down to which takes off and gets the most love from the devlopment team. WHich I have a feeling will be the more BG oriented form of PVP sadly.
Perhaps, but what kind of love would you be hoping for for W v W?
Or do you mean more like bug fixing time in terms of triage?
Like if the BG type is more popular the bugs there will be given higher priority?
Basically what has happened in most themeparks, world or more open forms of PVP become an after-thought, while BG's get constant attention. Development shifts from encouragement of open PVP and focuses on new BG maps, etc..
Can't say any specifics at this point though as to what I would want in WvW, for all I know it could be perfect as is.:) What I can say is I'm hoping to relive some glory days from DAOC, but I don't wanna get my hopes up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
1. So let's say the instanced PvP (Conquest mode) is 1/3 of the game.
2. The PvE would then also be 1/3.
3. And W v W would also be 1/3.
Again, hypothetical just for the sake of argument.
So removing the "RPG" from the first third somehow makes the other 2/3rds "less RPG?"
I'm trying to understand how that makes sense...
If you are trying to say that "only 2/3rds of the game is progression based RPG and as such the game is less RPG than other MMORPGS" than I would agree with you.
But I also don't see that as a bad thing.
1. Yeah, BG isn't RPG.
2. In what world all gears are equal and just cosmetic? That makes a weak RPG imo. The genre has never been about fairness and equality.
3. How jumping from level 1 to 80 just like that makes it an RPG? The genre is about the adventure between those two extreme. How do you practically incorporate this non sensical jump in a character story? Instant 1 to 80 is the antithesis of RPG...
So inconclusion, GW 2 is barely an RPG in my eyes.
The PvE part of the game, which BY FAR contains the most content, consists of leveling a character, fighting MOBs, delving in dungeons, gaining new skills and equipment, ...it's an RPG.
Now...why does the game mystically not become and RPG anymore when you add BGs? BGs are the ONLY place where you are made "equal" with your opponents. You may get level boosted in WvW, but we all know this isn't the same as being equal.
Your argument would be like saying that the sledding minigame in FF7 made it "barely an RPG" because the sledding part was more like a skiing game.
This is e-sport type of mmorpg , not progression type mmorpg.
While I don't favour any of those models (liking mmorpg or not for me is based on diffrent principles than so called skill vs. gear thing I don't care about that much) I am content that there are DIFFRENT kind of mmorpg's made finally.
Not just one type copied over and over, but something diffrent.
If you like progression based themepark gear mmorpg's like WoW , Rift ,Lotro ,etc then you will be disappointed with GW2 cause it is diffrent.
If you like sandbox mmorpg's this also is not sandbox.
This is game that has quite a few innovations and I characterize it for myself as Themepark 2.0 + e-sport.
Seriously just choose products you like / prefer instead of just trying to change all products into type you like.
That's what was wrong with mmorpg market in last 7+ years.
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
If you like esport why bother with a tab-target MMO with 2D battlefields, lame cover systems, no environment material diversity, very little map/gametype variety, no long-range tactics, and lamer graphics?
FPSers do the type of esport you like MUCH better.
Who are you to tell someone what they like and what they don't like.
Well, if somebody describes pretty accurately what they like, and it fits another genre much better than the MMO genre, then it is a valid question to ask why they would want to play a technically inferior MMO esport versus a much more technically advanced and skill-based FPS esport.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This level altering mechanism that GW2 is sporting is just a modified form of what others have/are already doing. The mentor/sidekick level changing is the same thing CoX has had for years, only in GW2 it happens automatically when you enter a zone - which makes it a lot like WAR when you entered the RvR lakes (as someone here also already stated). As for the WvW changing levels up to max, SWTOR also does this with thier warzones. Granted level 50 (cap) has thier own bracket now (as per the players request) so the level 50 gear doesn't interfere with the matches outcome as much. In SWTOR it raises everyone to 49 for stats anyway, you dont gain NEW skills, but the ones you do have are all scaled up to what a 49 would have on them.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Let's not jump down this guy's throat just because he may be unfamiliar with the game. For me, part of the reason I'm excited about Guild Wars 2 (and I'm sure this applies to many of you), is that it challenges us to think differently about MMOs. If you're a fan of the game, you've got to understand that a lot of traditional MMO gamers are going to react this way when they hear some of these things.
I realize you guys get hit with a lot of craziness here in our GW2 forums and so you may be a bit frustrated or suspicious someone is trolling, but frankly it takes less effort to give someone the benefit of the doubt and just answer their question (or point them to a handy thread or article that does). The guy made a perfectly reasonable post. Most of us are trained to think of MMOs and even RPGs this way, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to see things differently if explained to or otherwise informed.
TL;DR: Expect a lot of people to not "get it" about GW2, and some of them may not ever get it, or won't get it until they try the game themselves. If you truly care about growing the GW2 community, your best is to be inclusive when these sorts of questions pop up.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm scolding you guys, but I've been seeing a lot of this lately and I wanted to chime in.
Or even people can just disagree with a view based on the the available evidence, rather than be misinforminated and need education to achieve the required groupthink.
Absolutely. Why would anyone believe that people that who disagree with something the game does just "doesn't get it", and needs to be indoctrinated to see the light of truth and start mindlessly droning "Everything GW2 does is awesome."
There are quite a few people that "get it" about what GW2 is doing. They get it, they just don't like it, and that's a legitimate opinion to hold.
The OP is pretty much factually correct in his statements. Opinions will vary on whether those facts about the game are a good thing, or a bad thing, according to each person's preference. Neither will be wrong, and it doesn't mean that someone with the audacity to say *GASP* something bad about GW2 "doesn't get it".
As far as I'm concerned, I was initially excited about GW2, but the more I hear, the more I believe it's an amalgamation of everything that has been going wrong with MMORPGs over the last 10 years. Creating an EZ-mode insta-max level toy PvP character for instance-based e-sport PvP would be just one such thing.
I think what has been going wrong with MMORPGs nowadays is the fact that they allow low level characters to battle against high level characters even when they won't win. Wouldn't you agree?
Not at all, if we're talking about an actual RPG, especially one that's supposedly set in a persistent world with a virtual society that matters.
In an FPS or e-sport game, everyone being equal makes sense. That's never been the main focus of an RPG, however. In fact, it runs counter to the point of an RPG.
Exactly, the structured PvP is separated from the main game for a reason. The RPG part of the game isn't set in a way that everyone is equal and this even true in World Vs World where the level 2s are set to 80 because even though they are max level they still do not have access to skills or traits that a level 80 would have, it just enables them to not be one-shotted.
Right, and that's the problem. In a properly structured RPG world, those things wouldn't be separated from the virtual world, they would be a part of it, organic to it.
The type of gameplay you describes fits with an e-sport lobby game, and in fact, there are several out there that fill that need. Again, that has been one of the main problems with MMORPGs over the last ten years - they continue to relegate the persistent world to the status of a huge lobby.
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
If you like esport why bother with a tab-target MMO with 2D battlefields, lame cover systems, no environment material diversity, very little map/gametype variety, no long-range tactics, and lamer graphics?
FPSers do the type of esport you like MUCH better.
Who are you to tell someone what they like and what they don't like.
Well, if somebody describes pretty accurately what they like, and it fits another genre much better than the MMO genre, then it is a valid question to ask why they would want to play a technically inferior MMO esport versus a much more technically advanced and skill-based FPS esport.
Not to mention today FPS battles tend to be far more massive lol how ironic is that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even in WoW, in the new expansion for the Challenge Mode dungeons they are going to standardize gear/stats so that the rankings/scores are based on skill > gear.
Stat progression as the end-all of the game is a very overused mechanic in single player RPGs too.
I found it so damn funny people had such a problem with the auto-leveling in Oblivion/Skyrim.
But, then again, some people just love to play games with cheat codes too.
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
If you like esport why bother with a tab-target MMO with 2D battlefields, lame cover systems, no environment material diversity, very little map/gametype variety, no long-range tactics, and lamer graphics?
FPSers do the type of esport you like MUCH better.
Fair enough. But I like the fantasy genre. I would prefer to play an mmorpg but building community, recognizing your friends and enemies (no cross server stuff in a real mmo), and just helping to make a title great is something I don't have time for. On the other hand, playing Black Ops gets old for me a lot faster than GW2 will.
GW2 is that nice mix of just enough cosmetic to have a sort of mmo look, but no depth or community to worry about. I won't have to remember the gobs of players from cross servers or get to know them. Kind of like when WoW went cross realm and you never saw the same enemy twice again lol.
So an E-Sport I can see as just enough fun to tide me over till I can get into a real mmorpg.
Comments
Well... Yes, but no...
So you are boosted to lvl 80 with HP and your skills and traits are automatically unlocked if you want to do battle of khylo for instance. This is becuase they wanted for everyone to be at the same position in PvP instantly, so they could battle against eachother and win based upon skill mostly. (This changes when you actually reach lvl 80 and get your own gear - which is slightly better than the one you get. But you could still loose from a lvl 1 guy who's boosted to 80 and plays way better).
BUT... If you want to go into WvWvW then you're only given HP equal to lvl 80s HP and you're not given any armor, weapons or do you get skills and traits unlocked... Basically - you're still lvl 1 but you have HP as if you're lvl 80. So you have to unlock your skills, traits and level up...
The main difference between this PVP zones is:
-you can gain XP from WvWvW but you can't gain XP in Battle of Khylo
-you get every skill unlocked and every trait in battle of khylo , you don't get unlocked skills and traits in WvWvW (you gotta do it yourself)
-you get armor and weapons in BoK, you don't get anything in WvWvW
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
So there is no point to the post?
It was lagging like hell as well, so no point being there anyhow...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
I guess mine was edited because the post I quoted was deleted.
Yeah I agree with point 2.
Point 3: fair enough, we all see things how we see them, we have no clue how the op does as he hasn't been back.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem with MMO's taking the esport route is that the modern FPS already does that, and to be honest even the best MMO battleground is technically vastly inferior in many ways to the modern FPS. I've listed at least 10 reasons or so in another thread and I don't want to rehash it, but MMO battlegrounds are essentially late 1990's quality FPS games (and I'm not talking about graphics).
If an MMO wants to actually deliver a high quality esport I might look at it, but I don't see any decent battlegrounds being delivered anytime soon. For me MMO battlegrounds is one of the worst developments in the history of MMO PVP.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
Level based brackets in instanced battlegrounds has always been a stupid idea.
1) it artificially separates your populations. Thus screwing up your queueing
2) it serves no purpose, usually the only difference is that the lower brackets have less abilities. Thus making your balancing a nightmare and the gameplay aborted.
ArenaNet is smart not to box themselves into a corner that is guaranteed to make the eperience worse. You should be angry that any game ever accepted the idea to begin with, since level based brackets are assinine and coutner productive in so many ways its amazing and it offers absolutely no objective benefit other than preserving a completely false sense of progression.
Perhaps, but what kind of love would you be hoping for for W v W?
Or do you mean more like bug fixing time in terms of triage?
Like if the BG type is more popular the bugs there will be given higher priority?
As long as they don't kill open world PvP, I could care less about the arena stuff, I will play a FPS if I wanted a 'esport', I am tired of scenarios (but may do some, who knows), but I prefer the chaos of open world PvP, especially with 3 factions.
Exactly why I will get to play GW2. I have a busy family life (baby is screaming at me even now lol). I know that because GW2 is not an mmorpg I will be able to log in, bump around the BG stuff and log out. There is no need to build a community or be a part of some grand RPG plan. I love THAT kind of game, but they haven't made one of those in a while (I guess RIft but its so red team v blue team its just not old school enough for me but that's another argument).
Point is this IS en E-Sport and why I will have time to play it. Hopefully down the road when an in depth mmoRPG is developed I will be able to get into that. For now, I will stick with video games like GW2.
Yeah, for noobs.
This is the news I was waiting for. I don't need levels ticking to tell me I've progressed. Just give me a win / loss column and that's it.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
I agree.
At the end of the day, you just can't have real, competitive PvP if you want to use your PvE character. It's just not happening. Certain people will start each match with tons of advantages that other players don't have. Once you realize this is happening...it kind of shatters the competitive illusion.
Open world PvP...it's not that much of a big deal because open world isn't about having a fair competition.
But yeah, MMORPG progression and BG PvP have always been at odds. IMO, it's best to just separate them completely.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Exactly, the structured PvP is separated from the main game for a reason. The RPG part of the game isn't set in a way that everyone is equal and this even true in World Vs World where the level 2s are set to 80 because even though they are max level they still do not have access to skills or traits that a level 80 would have, it just enables them to not be one-shotted.
This is not a game.
Hating the cool new thing is popular. but they don't think of themselves as sheep doing that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Who are you to tell someone what they like and what they don't like.
Basically what has happened in most themeparks, world or more open forms of PVP become an after-thought, while BG's get constant attention. Development shifts from encouragement of open PVP and focuses on new BG maps, etc..
Can't say any specifics at this point though as to what I would want in WvW, for all I know it could be perfect as is.:) What I can say is I'm hoping to relive some glory days from DAOC, but I don't wanna get my hopes up.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The PvE part of the game, which BY FAR contains the most content, consists of leveling a character, fighting MOBs, delving in dungeons, gaining new skills and equipment, ...it's an RPG.
Now...why does the game mystically not become and RPG anymore when you add BGs? BGs are the ONLY place where you are made "equal" with your opponents. You may get level boosted in WvW, but we all know this isn't the same as being equal.
Your argument would be like saying that the sledding minigame in FF7 made it "barely an RPG" because the sledding part was more like a skiing game.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This is e-sport type of mmorpg , not progression type mmorpg.
While I don't favour any of those models (liking mmorpg or not for me is based on diffrent principles than so called skill vs. gear thing I don't care about that much) I am content that there are DIFFRENT kind of mmorpg's made finally.
Not just one type copied over and over, but something diffrent.
If you like progression based themepark gear mmorpg's like WoW , Rift ,Lotro ,etc then you will be disappointed with GW2 cause it is diffrent.
If you like sandbox mmorpg's this also is not sandbox.
This is game that has quite a few innovations and I characterize it for myself as Themepark 2.0 + e-sport.
Seriously just choose products you like / prefer instead of just trying to change all products into type you like.
That's what was wrong with mmorpg market in last 7+ years.
Accept diversity.
Well, if somebody describes pretty accurately what they like, and it fits another genre much better than the MMO genre, then it is a valid question to ask why they would want to play a technically inferior MMO esport versus a much more technically advanced and skill-based FPS esport.
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
This level altering mechanism that GW2 is sporting is just a modified form of what others have/are already doing. The mentor/sidekick level changing is the same thing CoX has had for years, only in GW2 it happens automatically when you enter a zone - which makes it a lot like WAR when you entered the RvR lakes (as someone here also already stated). As for the WvW changing levels up to max, SWTOR also does this with thier warzones. Granted level 50 (cap) has thier own bracket now (as per the players request) so the level 50 gear doesn't interfere with the matches outcome as much. In SWTOR it raises everyone to 49 for stats anyway, you dont gain NEW skills, but the ones you do have are all scaled up to what a 49 would have on them.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Right, and that's the problem. In a properly structured RPG world, those things wouldn't be separated from the virtual world, they would be a part of it, organic to it.
The type of gameplay you describes fits with an e-sport lobby game, and in fact, there are several out there that fill that need. Again, that has been one of the main problems with MMORPGs over the last ten years - they continue to relegate the persistent world to the status of a huge lobby.
GW2 is going down that same road.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Not to mention today FPS battles tend to be far more massive lol how ironic is that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even in WoW, in the new expansion for the Challenge Mode dungeons they are going to standardize gear/stats so that the rankings/scores are based on skill > gear.
Stat progression as the end-all of the game is a very overused mechanic in single player RPGs too.
I found it so damn funny people had such a problem with the auto-leveling in Oblivion/Skyrim.
But, then again, some people just love to play games with cheat codes too.
Fair enough. But I like the fantasy genre. I would prefer to play an mmorpg but building community, recognizing your friends and enemies (no cross server stuff in a real mmo), and just helping to make a title great is something I don't have time for. On the other hand, playing Black Ops gets old for me a lot faster than GW2 will.
GW2 is that nice mix of just enough cosmetic to have a sort of mmo look, but no depth or community to worry about. I won't have to remember the gobs of players from cross servers or get to know them. Kind of like when WoW went cross realm and you never saw the same enemy twice again lol.
So an E-Sport I can see as just enough fun to tide me over till I can get into a real mmorpg.
First GW1 isn't considered an MMORPG because it's instanced.
Then GW2 isn't either because in pvp you are max level with its perks.
Boy they do get it wrong, do they not?
Nobody is claiming that sidekicking is new.