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Dodging DD and AoE?

ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509

There was a big discussion going on how much effect dodging may have, when you anyways tab target your opponent and just do Single Target Damage (or DD), if you could dodge that or not.
Now i have found this from the reddit talk with Mike Ferguson, which was very enlightening.



Orginal said at Reddit Talk

Question:
Hi there. I have a question regarding dodging.
When dodging, do you have to roll out of the way of the incoming attack? i.e. roll left or right to avoid an arrow, or would it be sufficient to simply roll backwards due to any dodge action simply negating the incoming attack?
What I am trying to say is, is dodging about avoiding collision or simply knowing WHEN to dodge and not WHERE to?
Thank you!

Answer Mike Ferguson: ( Source )
Both. Dodging does make you 100% evade attacks while you are doing it, however because positioning is so important in the game it is crucial to make informed decisions about the direction you dodge as well.


Dodging always avoids dmg, because it is not based on hitboxes, it is just some kind of  invulnerability. In my mind not the worst idea. (e.g. no lag, sync problem)

What do you think about it? Discuss.
 
 

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Comments

  • xenogiasxenogias Member Posts: 1,926

    At first I was kinda leery about it. But after I had seen that I went back and viewed some video's that I remembered seeing some peopl useing dodge alot and useing it what seemed to be "right". Once I understood exactly how it looked and started watching thoes video's alot of the quickness of the combat started to make sense.

    Just one example I will use. I see alot of people complaining about how fast abilities seem to land after you see the giant red circle. At first I was like "uhh people need more than a half a second to react because of lag ect. However after seeing dodge makes you immune it really makes sense now. Even with alittle lag you should be able to get out of giant aoe and only take a single hit.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm fine with it. With the speed of combat and the time you have to react I think it will work out well. That said its still going to take some skill to know when to dodge, what to dodge, and which direction to dodge. Not to mention it looks like you can only dodge 3ish times before having to get some of that energy bar back.

  • ApraxisApraxis Member UncommonPosts: 1,509

    Yeap. I agree. Therefore the energy bar to balance it, and to avoid perma dodging. But nevertheless it will bring some action and speed into a fight, and i think good doding may one of the keys to win.

    Before that, i thought ok, but what is with the tab targeting, doding only AoEs is not bad, but more often then not you could as easily just run out of the Area. But now it makes perfectly sense, and will really improve the game, without beeing to much affected from lag.

  • BunksBunks Member Posts: 960

    if you watch the newest yogast dungeon run, the devs even state that doging thru traps and such will avoid %100 of damage.

     

    http://youtu.be/pG3tEl9FF9s

  • Master10KMaster10K Member Posts: 3,065

    This is pretty much old news, like last years news. But anyways... it's good that dodging counts for 100% evade, because before it was impossible to balance the mechanic, due factors like latency and such. Also certain professions had an advantage with their 1-skill being undodgeable. The Sceptor-wielding Fire Elementalist and Greatsword Mesmer come to mind (before the change this would have hit no matter what). Now that it dodges 100% percent, ArenaNet can balance it appropriately and even allow players to buff (vigor) & debuff (weakness) the dodge bar, because it is that powerful of a mechanic.

    image

  • xenogiasxenogias Member Posts: 1,926

    Originally posted by Bunks

    if you watch the newest yogast dungeon run, the devs even state that doging thru traps and such will avoid %100 of damage.

     

    http://youtu.be/pG3tEl9FF9s

    True. It may also be a bug but if you watch TB's recent video of the "jump puzzle and boss" the traps there killed you even if you tried to dodge through them.

    Thats the one area I will not agree with dodge being an immunity is a good thing. Traps should be exactly what they are made for. Deadly if you cant avoid them.

  • ExilorExilor Member Posts: 391

    Would it matter where you dodge roll to anyway? You won't be where the spell/arrow lands, regardless of the direction.

    Maybe if you were to dodge backwards when you're being shot with a rifle/pistol which doesn't have a meaningful arc it wouldn't make so much sense, but hey, there's precedent...

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Would it matter where you dodge roll to anyway? You won't be where the spell/arrow lands, regardless of the direction.

    Maybe if you were to dodge backwards when you're being shot with a rifle/pistol which doesn't have a meaningful arc it wouldn't make so much sense, but hey, there's precedent...

    Positioning advantages.  Dodge is a fast burst of movement.  Dodging backwards to get away from a melee and kite, dodge forwards to catch up to a kiter, and dodge to the side to avoid something while maintaining whatever distance you were from the opponent.

  • ExilorExilor Member Posts: 391

    Originally posted by Magnum2103

    Originally posted by Exilor

    Would it matter where you dodge roll to anyway? You won't be where the spell/arrow lands, regardless of the direction.

    Maybe if you were to dodge backwards when you're being shot with a rifle/pistol which doesn't have a meaningful arc it wouldn't make so much sense, but hey, there's precedent...

    Positioning advantages.  Dodge is a fast burst of movement.  Dodging backwards to get away from a melee and kite, dodge forwards to catch up to a kiter, and dodge to the side to avoid something while maintaining whatever distance you were from the opponent.

    I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the "physics" of it.

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Member UncommonPosts: 679

    I had no idea that dodging worked like that O.o it does sound pretty terrible and carebear to me if i am honest and it also is a massive disappointment for me....i will have to see how it actually feels once i get the chance to play the game myself and i hope that it will make sense to me than but right now i am very skeptical about it.

    Having active evading was something that did interest me most about this game it did sound like the combat would become more engaging and skill actually matters again but if i do not have to make a fraction of a second decision as to where to dodge to since i will evade the dmg regardless of my dodge direction it kinda takes the fun out of it.

    Now i do not evade to the left or the right to evade the fireball or arrow that comes straight at me no i evade it by jumping right into it and magically not being hit by it.

    By doing so i do also shorten the distance to the range attacker which allows me to hit him sooner (if i am a close combat fighter that is)

    The evading could have been an awesome tool but i suppose in the end GW2 is aiming for the not too hardcore audience and therefore needs to keep a lot of stuff as simple as possible....i still am going to play the game tho and i keep hoping that it sounds worse than it actually plays.

  • romanator0romanator0 Member Posts: 2,382

    Originally posted by Doomedfox

    I had no idea that dodging worked like that O.o it does sound pretty terrible and carebear to me if i am honest and it also is a massive disappointment for me....i will have to see how it actually feels once i get the chance to play the game myself and i hope that it will make sense to me than but right now i am very skeptical about it.

    Having active evading was something that did interest me most about this game it did sound like the combat would become more engaging and skill actually matters again but if i do not have to make a fraction of a second decision as to where to dodge to since i will evade the dmg regardless of my dodge direction it kinda takes the fun out of it.

    Now i do not evade to the left or the right to evade the fireball or arrow that comes straight at me no i evade it by jumping right into it and magically not being hit by it.

    By doing so i do also shorten the distance to the range attacker which allows me to hit him sooner (if i am a close combat fighter that is)

    The evading could have been an awesome tool but i suppose in the end GW2 is aiming for the not too hardcore audience and therefore needs to keep a lot of stuff as simple as possible....i still am going to play the game tho and i keep hoping that it sounds worse than it actually plays.

    You're still able to dodge attacks by strafing and kiting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR0-S9SQCW4&feature=plcp&context=C3ffa9f6UDOEgsToPDskL8hWM78Bu5hap6sb8oXV72

    From 3:20 to 4:50 is a good example of someone doing just that.

    image

  • QuenchsterQuenchster Member Posts: 450

    It will greatly help out the PvP side of things, but it makes me question how useful blocking will be for shield classes.

  • antonatsisantonatsis Member Posts: 109

    well i see it like this...dodging 1 attack its 100% sure 

    BUT 

    dodging AOE damage will be the real chalenge.Doing the roll will move you back by default and for that time you are 100% in dodge mode BUT....WHAT IF YOU LAND in an AOE area?then you will get hit....thats why default dodging wont work on AOE most of the time,you will have to take a decision as to when and where to use your dodge to maximize your avoidness...and remenber everyone and their mother can AOE in this game :P 

     

    Also keep in mind that DODGE is finite...meaning that after 2 or 3 dodges you will have depleted the dodge bar and then you will have to rely on strafing since its also possible to do that too.

  • UnlightUnlight Member Posts: 2,540

    Originally posted by Doomedfox

    I had no idea that dodging worked like that O.o it does sound pretty terrible and carebear to me if i am honest and it also is a massive disappointment for me....i will have to see how it actually feels once i get the chance to play the game myself and i hope that it will make sense to me than but right now i am very skeptical about it.

    Having active evading was something that did interest me most about this game it did sound like the combat would become more engaging and skill actually matters again but if i do not have to make a fraction of a second decision as to where to dodge to since i will evade the dmg regardless of my dodge direction it kinda takes the fun out of it.

    Now i do not evade to the left or the right to evade the fireball or arrow that comes straight at me no i evade it by jumping right into it and magically not being hit by it.

    By doing so i do also shorten the distance to the range attacker which allows me to hit him sooner (if i am a close combat fighter that is)

    The evading could have been an awesome tool but i suppose in the end GW2 is aiming for the not too hardcore audience and therefore needs to keep a lot of stuff as simple as possible....i still am going to play the game tho and i keep hoping that it sounds worse than it actually plays.

    Protip:  if you dodge *into* the middle of an AoE Meteor Shower, you're going to burn.

    Dodging may look like E-Z mode due to the invulnerability, but the effect is very short-lived.  Someone mentioned that dodging didn't seem to help Totalbiscuit make it through a series of traps.  That's because when his roll ended, it ended with him in a bad position, specifically in the middle of another trap.  What the peanut gallery is overlooking is this:


    1. you have limited energy for dodging so it can't be spammed

    2. the place where you end up is almost as important as the place you're vacating

    3. if you aren't timing it properly and you're not reading your enemy correctly, you're going to waste your dodge on grazing damage, leaving you exposed to much worse.

    So if you think the dodge mechanic is too easy, think again.  Anybody can double tap a key, but it will take a skilled player to know when to do it and where they need to end up.  I can almost guarantee that everyone is going to get acquainted with the concept of "out of the frying pan and into the fire" as we learn to master this skill.

  • RizelStarRizelStar Member UncommonPosts: 2,773

    Originally posted by Quenchster

    It will greatly help out the PvP side of things, but it makes me question how useful blocking will be for shield classes.

    Shield abilities literally work, like block and your able to move but it ony last so long and it depends where your being hit from. For example, it makes it where Warriors have a chance for range attackers. I used the shield and sword, so I blocked the ranger that was trying to kite me then used savage leap and stomp then charge and other skills, K.O, though he could of used the dodge button :/.

    Every class has some form of block, I can't say for each weapon but it's possible to do so with each class.

     

    Though you could AOE the shield since it's only by position which is great IMO.

     

    @The OP, I personally like it, I did notice that traps still hurt people dodging through them, I think because the distance and size of the traps is the cause, making it a challenge just for one dodge.

     

    I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

    I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

    P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

    Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  • ellobo29ellobo29 Member UncommonPosts: 423
  • xenptxenpt Member Posts: 430

    I think this is one of the most awesome features both for pvp and pve, this will make the fights interesting and will cativate the attention of the players not just you have to click to attack you also have to move your ass to get away from the damage, this game looks really promising and fun.

    image

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 818

    Originally posted by Unlight

    Originally posted by Doomedfox

    I had no idea that dodging worked like that O.o it does sound pretty terrible and carebear to me if i am honest and it also is a massive disappointment for me....i will have to see how it actually feels once i get the chance to play the game myself and i hope that it will make sense to me than but right now i am very skeptical about it.

    Having active evading was something that did interest me most about this game it did sound like the combat would become more engaging and skill actually matters again but if i do not have to make a fraction of a second decision as to where to dodge to since i will evade the dmg regardless of my dodge direction it kinda takes the fun out of it.

    Now i do not evade to the left or the right to evade the fireball or arrow that comes straight at me no i evade it by jumping right into it and magically not being hit by it.

    By doing so i do also shorten the distance to the range attacker which allows me to hit him sooner (if i am a close combat fighter that is)

    The evading could have been an awesome tool but i suppose in the end GW2 is aiming for the not too hardcore audience and therefore needs to keep a lot of stuff as simple as possible....i still am going to play the game tho and i keep hoping that it sounds worse than it actually plays.

    Protip:  if you dodge *into* the middle of an AoE Meteor Shower, you're going to burn.

    Dodging may look like E-Z mode due to the invulnerability, but the effect is very short-lived.  Someone mentioned that dodging didn't seem to help Totalbiscuit make it through a series of traps.  That's because when his roll ended, it ended with him in a bad position, specifically in the middle of another trap.  What the peanut gallery is overlooking is this:


    1. you have limited energy for dodging so it can't be spammed

    2. the place where you end up is almost as important as the place you're vacating

    3. if you aren't timing it properly and you're not reading your enemy correctly, you're going to waste your dodge on grazing damage, leaving you exposed to much worse.

    So if you think the dodge mechanic is too easy, think again.  Anybody can double tap a key, but it will take a skilled player to know when to do it and where they need to end up.  I can almost guarantee that everyone is going to get acquainted with the concept of "out of the frying pan and into the fire" as we learn to master this skill.

    Exactly as what Unlight said, not only are you wasting one of your dodges in PVP, your opponent if is skilled can read where you are landing and place an AOE awaiting for your dodge to end.

    And don't forget Doomedfox, you are not the only one that can dodge, if you get too close to me, i have a knock back and also can dodge toward you or away from you, so the distance are always the same. You are at the same boat as everyone else, it all depends on how you play your character.

    Especially if you have an opponent that dodges without reason and after 3 dodges, you know you got him cornered as he awaits for his energy to return.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Originally posted by Apraxis

    There was a big discussion going on how much effect dodging may have, when you anyways tab target your opponent and just do Single Target Damage (or DD), if you could dodge that or not.

    Now i have found this from the reddit talk with Mike Ferguson, which was very enlightening.






    Orginal said at Reddit Talk

     

    Question:

    Hi there. I have a question regarding dodging.

    When dodging, do you have to roll out of the way of the incoming attack? i.e. roll left or right to avoid an arrow, or would it be sufficient to simply roll backwards due to any dodge action simply negating the incoming attack?

    What I am trying to say is, is dodging about avoiding collision or simply knowing WHEN to dodge and not WHERE to?

    Thank you!

    Answer Mike Ferguson: ( Source )

    Both. Dodging does make you 100% evade attacks while you are doing it, however because positioning is so important in the game it is crucial to make informed decisions about the direction you dodge as well.





    Dodging always avoids dmg, because it is not based on hitboxes, it is just some kind of  invulnerability. In my mind not the worst idea. (e.g. no lag, sync problem)

     

    What do you think about it? Discuss.

     

     

    That sounds absolutely horrible actually. If 30 man teams in Greece can do real time combat in a massive open world instanceless game there's no reason that a big budget game like this shouldn't be able to pull it off.

  • ellobo29ellobo29 Member UncommonPosts: 423

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Apraxis

    There was a big discussion going on how much effect dodging may have, when you anyways tab target your opponent and just do Single Target Damage (or DD), if you could dodge that or not.

    Now i have found this from the reddit talk with Mike Ferguson, which was very enlightening.






    Orginal said at Reddit Talk

     

    Question:

    Hi there. I have a question regarding dodging.

    When dodging, do you have to roll out of the way of the incoming attack? i.e. roll left or right to avoid an arrow, or would it be sufficient to simply roll backwards due to any dodge action simply negating the incoming attack?

    What I am trying to say is, is dodging about avoiding collision or simply knowing WHEN to dodge and not WHERE to?

    Thank you!

    Answer Mike Ferguson: ( Source )

    Both. Dodging does make you 100% evade attacks while you are doing it, however because positioning is so important in the game it is crucial to make informed decisions about the direction you dodge as well.





    Dodging always avoids dmg, because it is not based on hitboxes, it is just some kind of  invulnerability. In my mind not the worst idea. (e.g. no lag, sync problem)

     

    What do you think about it? Discuss.

     

     

    That sounds absolutely horrible actually. If 30 man teams in Greece can do real time combat in a massive open world instanceless game there's no reason that a big budget game like this shouldn't be able to pull it off.

     

    ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL? PLEASE GOD DONT TELL ME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL AHAHAHHAHA!

    THAT TURD OF A GAME SHOULDNT EVEN BE MENTIONED ON THIS BOARD...IF THAT IS THE GAME YOU SPEAK OF

     

  • LeodiousLeodious Member UncommonPosts: 773

    I think the invulnerability makes good logical sense. For the fireball example: If I see a fireball coming at me, the best way to dodge may be to move forward, anticipating the speed and direction of the fireball and moving just out of the way of it as it approaches. While you are dodging, you are actively trying to avoid something, so you are paying attention to it, so you are going to avoid it. It is not as if you are actually leaping into the fireball. You are moving in such a way that you avoid it while moving forward. It makes perfect sense from the perspective of how dodging works in the real world. (Note: I am not trying to imply fireballs are something people can just toss around out of their hands in the real world.)

    In melee fighting as well, sometimes the best way to dodge is actually toward your opponent. You shouldn't always dodge backward or too the side because that is both predictable and not always the most efficient way to avoid the attack. When fighting, and dodging, economy of movement is very key.

    And for those of you who are uninitiated in real-life fighting, that Matrix example should be a tip. Remember how they just move their upper body backwards, but in such a way that while they remain in the direct line of fire, the bullets miss them.

    "There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."

    — John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman

  • eAzydamaneAzydaman Member Posts: 218

    You will also have to learn the different skills of all the classes, so you can make a choice if it's worth it to spend energy on a dodge, like if someone uses a normal auto attack on your or some single target high damage skill.

  • ComfyChairComfyChair Member Posts: 758

    To be honest, if it didn't evade damage as it does, people would struggle to find it of much use in large fights :)

    Also, i doubt GW2 has much in the way of complicated hitboxes (it has them, of course, but i'd imagine every character has the exact same hitbox, as weird as that sounds considering norn and asura) so making a character convincingly evade attacks based on it's own hitbox would be more difficult and prone to frustration ('how did it hit me?!'). Plus it would make the Asura the master race :p

  • Garvon3Garvon3 Member CommonPosts: 2,898

    Originally posted by ellobo29

    Originally posted by Garvon3


    Originally posted by Apraxis

    There was a big discussion going on how much effect dodging may have, when you anyways tab target your opponent and just do Single Target Damage (or DD), if you could dodge that or not.

    Now i have found this from the reddit talk with Mike Ferguson, which was very enlightening.






    Orginal said at Reddit Talk

     

    Question:

    Hi there. I have a question regarding dodging.

    When dodging, do you have to roll out of the way of the incoming attack? i.e. roll left or right to avoid an arrow, or would it be sufficient to simply roll backwards due to any dodge action simply negating the incoming attack?

    What I am trying to say is, is dodging about avoiding collision or simply knowing WHEN to dodge and not WHERE to?

    Thank you!

    Answer Mike Ferguson: ( Source )

    Both. Dodging does make you 100% evade attacks while you are doing it, however because positioning is so important in the game it is crucial to make informed decisions about the direction you dodge as well.





    Dodging always avoids dmg, because it is not based on hitboxes, it is just some kind of  invulnerability. In my mind not the worst idea. (e.g. no lag, sync problem)

     

    What do you think about it? Discuss.

     

     

    That sounds absolutely horrible actually. If 30 man teams in Greece can do real time combat in a massive open world instanceless game there's no reason that a big budget game like this shouldn't be able to pull it off.

     

    ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL? PLEASE GOD DONT TELL ME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL AHAHAHHAHA!

    THAT TURD OF A GAME SHOULDNT EVEN BE MENTIONED ON THIS BOARD...IF THAT IS THE GAME YOU SPEAK OF

     

    Uhhh... you mean.. the MMO with the best combat at the moment? Yes I'm talking about Darkfall. It's far better than most MMOs.

  • ComfyChairComfyChair Member Posts: 758

    Garvon, you've basically set yourself on a track of logic which should allude to the overarcing reason why Arenanet haven't done true hitboxes (aside from obvious Asuran/Norn imbalance). A relatively small 30 man team could make a feature in an MMO work. A vastly more experienced 250 man team chose not to take the same route with their game despite it being the most obvious (we all know what hitboxes are :D). Therefore, it's a pretty safe bet that pure hitbox based mechanics don't work well in GW2 combat.

     

    Just because something works for one game doesn't mean it should be ripped off without thinking. It's why so MMO's have been 'meh' recently :D

  • austriacusaustriacus Member UncommonPosts: 618

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by ellobo29

    Originally posted by Garvon3

    Originally posted by Apraxis

    There was a big discussion going on how much effect dodging may have, when you anyways tab target your opponent and just do Single Target Damage (or DD), if you could dodge that or not.

    Now i have found this from the reddit talk with Mike Ferguson, which was very enlightening.






    Orginal said at Reddit Talk

     

    Question:

    Hi there. I have a question regarding dodging.

    When dodging, do you have to roll out of the way of the incoming attack? i.e. roll left or right to avoid an arrow, or would it be sufficient to simply roll backwards due to any dodge action simply negating the incoming attack?

    What I am trying to say is, is dodging about avoiding collision or simply knowing WHEN to dodge and not WHERE to?

    Thank you!

    Answer Mike Ferguson: ( Source )

    Both. Dodging does make you 100% evade attacks while you are doing it, however because positioning is so important in the game it is crucial to make informed decisions about the direction you dodge as well.





    Dodging always avoids dmg, because it is not based on hitboxes, it is just some kind of  invulnerability. In my mind not the worst idea. (e.g. no lag, sync problem)

     

    What do you think about it? Discuss.

     

     

    That sounds absolutely horrible actually. If 30 man teams in Greece can do real time combat in a massive open world instanceless game there's no reason that a big budget game like this shouldn't be able to pull it off.

     

    ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL? PLEASE GOD DONT TELL ME YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT DARKFALL AHAHAHHAHA!

    THAT TURD OF A GAME SHOULDNT EVEN BE MENTIONED ON THIS BOARD...IF THAT IS THE GAME YOU SPEAK OF

     

    Uhhh... you mean.. the MMO with the best combat at the moment? Yes I'm talking about Darkfall. It's far better than most MMOs.

    to be fair, i think the dodge of  "real time combat" was there at some point, i think it can be seen in 2010 footage,  they just changed prob because of problems with that kind of dodge in the overall picture of combat in the game.

     

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