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What really killed this game

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  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914

    Originally posted by Phry

    Eve is a niche game that apeals to a relatively small subset of gamers, SW:TOR is supposed to be a mainstream AAA MMO themepark, as in all things, MMO's have a 'window' of opportunity which they have to utilise in order to succeed, or fail. For SW:TOR to be competing for Eve type numbers would be a fail, because SW:TOR probably cannot survive as a 'niche' game. The comparable resources involved are too disproportionate for that to be acceptable, even from a running costs point of view. And CCP don't have to give money to anyone else for the IP either, which Bioware/EA do. My estimate is that Bioware/EA probably have another 3 months to turn things around, but that may be too optimistic, they might not.image

    So you draw comparisons between TOR and EVE, but then discount it when others do?  That's not arguing fair.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    And for players looking for the WoW experience, the original is still best IMO.  So a bunch of players will try a new game that follows the WoW model closely, but typically discover that it's just not as good as the original and quit.



    I'm still looking for the spirtual successor to UO.

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928

    Originally posted by Creslin321

     

     You're assuming that SWTOR will actually grow with time.  But I honestly doubt that.

    Nearly every game that has copied that WoW model has only gone one way in terms of subs since release...and that's down.  I just don't see what is going to be different about SWTOR on this frontier.

    And the server pop data already shows that the servers are MUCH less populated than they were at release.

    true server loads are at a all time high "light" average http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us/trends

    not to mention coming this year we have several other big MMO's to be released and diablo 3. Right now SWTOR really has no new competition and is still the new flashy game. Last big MMO was Rift which is now a year old. Anyway by the time GW2 is released TSW,TERA, and Diablo 3 should all be out not to mention wow's next expansion.. really with all this stuff coming up I don't think this one has much a chance outside its most loyal fans. 

     

    Just wish developers/publishers would get it through their heads because this model of MMO was a cash cow for blizzard doesn't mean it will be for them...

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914

    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    Anyway by the time GW2 is released TSW,TERA, and Diablo 3 should all be out not to mention wow's next expansion.. really with all this stuff coming up I don't think this one has much a chance outside its most loyal fans. 

    And honestly, how long do you think it will take most people to burn through those game's content?  As for your last point, I don't think any MMO really survives unless it has loyal fans; those are the ones who stay with it, no?

  • arctarusarctarus Member UncommonPosts: 2,581

    Whatever it is, i believe that BW is pinning their hopes on patch 1.2, to at least stabilize the pops.

     

    We will see soon in EA next report at end of March, till than, everything is just speculations on our part...

    RIP Orc Choppa

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by Superduper69


    Originally posted by Phry


    Originally posted by evilastro


    Originally posted by MosesZD


    Originally posted by grimal


    Originally posted by ComfyChair


    Originally posted by bigsmiff



    So my vision doesn't count? And my new guildies are my imagination? The Republic fleet has been steadily growing in pop. for the past week or so. It is funny that those sites weren't accurate when the numbers were growing. Now that they show a decrease, it is accurate right?

    I don't know what bullshit 'fanboys' and 'haters' have been throwing around in here over time, but SW:ToR definitely has a shrinking population and has had so since after the initial sales boom. Local increases don't count for a lot. My guild went from 5 members to 90 in 2 months in GW1 in 2008, but that was after all the expansions, when work was being done on GW2 :) The whole game hadn't drastically increased in playercount just because my guild saw an 18x increase in size.

    But, indeed, like the poster said, it's not dead and wont be for a long time.

    Every MMO sees a decrease in activity after the initial month or two.

    Not true.   Not even close.    LOTRO didn't.   Took years.   WoW took even longer.   Eve keeps growing.  Lineage and Lineage II grew for years and year and years before losing players.  

     

    And there are more examples to disprove this old canard.

     

    None of the games you listed got even close to the amount of players for SWTOR, even after the 'massive loss of players' in SWTOR it still has way more than LOTRO or EVE have ever had.

    The only other Pay to Play MMOs that even sold close to what SWTOR has since WoW were AoC and Hellgate: London with 1 million each, and they lost way more subscribers than SWTOR did.

    Eve currently has around 350k active subs, and while SW:TOR has more currently, its not by a huge amount, maybe in another month it may even be less than Eve. we shall see. but either way, its definitely not a number that Bioware/EA can brag about.image

    And how many years it took eve to get that many players? EVE didn't release with 300K subs. This comparison doesn't even make sense. 

     You're assuming that SWTOR will actually grow with time.  But I honestly doubt that.

    Nearly every game that has copied that WoW model has only gone one way in terms of subs since release...and that's down.  I just don't see what is going to be different about SWTOR on this frontier.

    And the server pop data already shows that the servers are MUCH less populated than they were at release.

        Actually Creslin321, as you have stated before, most games go down for the first six months (about 60% to 75% on average) after release and then level out and stay steady OR slowly increase depending on how fast new content is being released.  If that holds with SWTOR then the game should have about 500% to 800K subscribers after six months.  Of course that is not even including the possibility of new customers now that the Asian Pacific Servers have opened.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • mcburlymcburly Member Posts: 234

    gotta love the bitter members of mmorpg.com. only reason i have a profile here is to see them complain about every single mmo ever.

    A realist would look at swtor and say its doing well but an mmorpg.com user will say it is dead. hilarious stuff.

    image

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Member Posts: 2,574

    Meh i'm still playing SWTOR and having fun with alts.  The game is pretty damn fun leveling up and its the first MMO in 14 years that has given me a sewrious case of altitis.  Regardless of what the haters say I love the story of the leveling up process and its the "only" reason why I stick with it. 

     

    Now if they can just hurry up and add in standard MMO features and fix endgame we might get a good game but as of now I pretty much just play it as a single player Bioware story-driven RPG.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928

    Originally posted by grimal

    Originally posted by Aerowyn

    Anyway by the time GW2 is released TSW,TERA, and Diablo 3 should all be out not to mention wow's next expansion.. really with all this stuff coming up I don't think this one has much a chance outside its most loyal fans. 

    And honestly, how long do you think it will take most people to burn through those game's content?  As for your last point, I don't think any MMO really survives unless it has loyal fans; those are the ones who stay with it, no?

    very true never said any of those would be a massive success either. But right now SWTOR from everything I have seen is in a pretty decent decline much like all the other themepark clones were after release and it has nothing new its really competing with like I said above.. but soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • 69Cuda69Cuda Member Posts: 251

    Originally posted by daveospice

    The passive gameplay style. 

    For instance; in the early levels the instances are easy to run and you don't need to CC anything to succeed.   I really enjoyed it up until around level 30+

     

    In the later levels, you basically have to CC everything down to one mob and kill one mob at a time in order to get through the levels.

     

    Welcome to EQ 1 all over again.

     

    After playing EQ for so long, I can't do this playstyle anymore.    Especially after having played through Rift, and enjoyed the fast paced combat.

     

    Not to mention so much CC never transfers well into PVP...  I hated PVP in this game.  Probably the worst PVP I've ever played in an MMO. I  wish I could have got my money back really, it was that bad.

    You don't even understand how bad this game is...  I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype when I could have took that 60 dollars and spent it on something I'd actually enjoy. 

    This game isn't just going in my junk pile, I'm going to fucking burn it. 

    Shadowbane, Hellgate London, Tabula Rasa all gets cancelled, and you guys let this game live on?  REALLY?

     

    They developed a trade skill that... gives you money.  THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN A WARNING SIGN WHY DIDN'T I SEE IT!

    I am still enjoying it at a sow pace when I am bored. Its ok game. Not graet not terrible. As far as PVP its a themepark if you expected good pvp you are kinda juut stupid anyway.

    But in regards to the title of your post , the only thing that will kill the game for you is the cancel subscription button. But if it makes you feel better to come here and rant about games that sucked balls and the fact that you were stupid and wasted money on something you knew was going to suck balls. Maybe you should just face the facts that you arent to bright and not advertise it so much.

    Just a thought.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914

    Originally posted by Aerowynbut soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    I for one will be picking up all those titles but will probably be one of those people coming back to TOR.  If the expansions can come out in a timely fashion, I expect this game to be around a long time.

  • grimalgrimal Member UncommonPosts: 2,914

    Originally posted by 69Cuda

    I am still enjoying it at a sow pace when I am bored. Its ok game. Not graet not terrible. As far as PVP its a themepark if you expected good pvp you are kinda juut stupid anyway.

    But in regards to the title of your post , the only thing that will kill the game for you is the cancel subscription button. But if it makes you feel better to come here and rant about games that sucked balls and the fact that you were stupid and wasted money on something you knew was going to suck balls. Maybe you should just face the facts that you arent to bright and not advertise it so much.

    Just a thought.

     

    LOL!

  • gladosrev2gladosrev2 Member CommonPosts: 203

    What killed the game was not passive game style, lack of content, or bad graphics. It's much more simpler than that, and anyone could have seen it coming a year ago.

    As soon as the devs in Bioware started talking about WoW being their inspiration and trying to copy it's features, not even hiding it, anyone able to reason should have seen this failure coming from a parsec away. WoW is full of crap, therefore trying to copy crap will result in even worse crap, since you can never match the original crap in crappiness :D

    Did I, and many others, not keep talking for months before the premiere to stay away from this game? If you bought it nevertheless, it's your own fault. Took me 5 minutes into the beta to know all my predictions were spot on and even then the game managed to lower them signigficantly.

    There was so much material released, that you had to know what you're buying. Do some research next time ;)

    Luckilly GW2 is on the horizon, and that game has a flawless record so far for at least 2 years, unlike no other MMO ever before its release. I suggest you preorder it to get guaranteed enjoyment, but I bet you won't listen anyway :P

    Live and learn, I guess.

    My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by Aerowyn

     

    very true never said any of those would be a massive success either. But right now SWTOR from everything I have seen is in a pretty decent decline much like all the other themepark clones were after release and it has nothing new its really competing with like I said above.. but soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    After much thought on this subject (hindsight is 20/20 afterall) I can't really call TOR a WOW clone, the game just has a completely different focus than other themeparks. At it's heart TOR really is a Bioware game,  just like any other Bioware game the focus is story, this isn't how WOW, RIFT, LOTRO, etc are. Those games focus on gear grinds, rep grinds, etc... to keep players busy for long periods of time.

    TOR may have those things, they have grinds for sure, the thing is they didn't focus on game-play enough to make those things worth while for many. Again just like any other Bioware game, they spent far more time developing set pieces and cinematically oriented dialogue screnes.

    The big kicker I think really is that this works better in a smaller more corridor like game, while TOR's worlds aren't exactly huge, they're still too big for this type of game-play. Which makes the questing for some feel like a chore. If they really cloned WOW I don't think any of this would be the case.

    just my two cents on the clone topic.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • arctarusarctarus Member UncommonPosts: 2,581
    Originally posted by mcburly

    gotta love the bitter members of mmorpg.com. only reason i have a profile here is to see them complain about every single mmo ever.
    A realist would look at swtor and say its doing well but an mmorpg.com user will say it is dead. hilarious stuff.

     


    A realist will know that when roughly about 200mi is being invested in a game, the investors expect not only break even in their investment of 5 years, but also a handsome monthly profit there after. They would expect at least, with the IP and name of the devs to have a few millions of players.

    Tor needs at least 500k to be profitable, if, like what they say, 800k subs remains by march, than they really have something seriously to worried about.

    RIP Orc Choppa

  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Aerowyn


     

    very true never said any of those would be a massive success either. But right now SWTOR from everything I have seen is in a pretty decent decline much like all the other themepark clones were after release and it has nothing new its really competing with like I said above.. but soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    After much thought on this subject (hindsight is 20/20 afterall) I can't really call TOR a WOW clone, the game just has a completely different focus than other themeparks. At it's heart TOR really is a Bioware game,  just like any other Bioware game the focus is story, this isn't how WOW, RIFT, LOTRO, etc are. Those games focus on gear grinds, rep grinds, etc... to keep players busy for long periods of time.

    TOR may have those things, they have grinds for sure, the thing is they didn't focus on game-play enough to make those things worth while for many. Again just like any other Bioware game, they spent far more time developing set pieces and cinematically oriented dialogue screnes.

    The big kicker I think really is that this works better in a smaller more corridor like game, while TOR's worlds aren't exactly huge, they're still too big for this type of game-play. Which makes the questing for some feel like a chore. If they really cloned WOW I don't think any of this would be the case.

    just my two cents on the clone topic.

    agree with this in a way.. although to me how the game feels is exactly like you say a bioware game but only from 1-49 but at 50 it becomes a themepark clone and as a  clone its very lackluster one at best.. problem is in the big sceme of things 1-49 isn't what keeps people around for long periods of time and when you create a game like they did in levels 1-49 I don't see how in any way they could flesh out endgame using the carrot on a stick model and keep people around for very long.

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by daveospice

    I actually don't want to play hellgate london.  The new version is an abomination, and doesn't have hardcore mode.

    I believed the hype because it was Bioware... Bioware has NEVER done me wrong.  Okay, Mass Effect 2 was meh... but never before that!

    It's like a girl who promised me sex, who had always delivered on past promises...  She still had sex with me, but this time she had gained a lot of weight and she had an std. 

     

    THAT is way more gross than anything SWTOR ever did to you or ever COULD do to you.

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Member Posts: 5,359

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    Originally posted by daveospice

    I actually don't want to play hellgate london.  The new version is an abomination, and doesn't have hardcore mode.

    I believed the hype because it was Bioware... Bioware has NEVER done me wrong.  Okay, Mass Effect 2 was meh... but never before that!

    It's like a girl who promised me sex, who had always delivered on past promises...  She still had sex with me, but this time she had gained a lot of weight and she had an std. 

     

    THAT is way more gross than anything SWTOR ever did to you or ever COULD do to you.

     I disagree...you clearly don't know what the Huttball is made out of...

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • just1opinionjust1opinion Member UncommonPosts: 4,641

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Originally posted by just1opinion


    Originally posted by daveospice

    I actually don't want to play hellgate london.  The new version is an abomination, and doesn't have hardcore mode.

    I believed the hype because it was Bioware... Bioware has NEVER done me wrong.  Okay, Mass Effect 2 was meh... but never before that!

    It's like a girl who promised me sex, who had always delivered on past promises...  She still had sex with me, but this time she had gained a lot of weight and she had an std. 

     

    THAT is way more gross than anything SWTOR ever did to you or ever COULD do to you.

     I disagree...you clearly don't know what the Huttball is made out of...

     

    /shiver

    President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,829

    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by Aerowyn


     

    very true never said any of those would be a massive success either. But right now SWTOR from everything I have seen is in a pretty decent decline much like all the other themepark clones were after release and it has nothing new its really competing with like I said above.. but soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    After much thought on this subject (hindsight is 20/20 afterall) I can't really call TOR a WOW clone, the game just has a completely different focus than other themeparks. At it's heart TOR really is a Bioware game,  just like any other Bioware game the focus is story, this isn't how WOW, RIFT, LOTRO, etc are. Those games focus on gear grinds, rep grinds, etc... to keep players busy for long periods of time.

    TOR may have those things, they have grinds for sure, the thing is they didn't focus on game-play enough to make those things worth while for many. Again just like any other Bioware game, they spent far more time developing set pieces and cinematically oriented dialogue screnes.

    The big kicker I think really is that this works better in a smaller more corridor like game, while TOR's worlds aren't exactly huge, they're still too big for this type of game-play. Which makes the questing for some feel like a chore. If they really cloned WOW I don't think any of this would be the case.

    just my two cents on the clone topic.



    Wait are you really proposing here that WoW is not a story driven game?

    Many people ask what made WoW so great, why was it so successful even though it did not introduce anything new.

    In my opinion it was the very fact that it was based on Warcraft. A game that had amazing story. I mean was not it great to join Arthas in the fight against the scourge?I remember I had that "I will do just one more mission before I go to bed" experience which I have not had for a long time now.

    Suddenly, you were given a chance to enter that world you loved so much and were given more freedom to finally explore it beyond boundaries which were in original warcraft. The world was well designed and with great atmosphere. I was feeling like I really was in the world of Warcraft which made me want to stay and play the game.

    You are right that at current stage, WoW is a gear grindfest with LFG button and people spending their entire gameplay in orgrimmar waiting for instance/raid/bg/arena to pop out making the world itself redundant/unnecessary. That is why we see the game declining now. I think all the players are now aware of the fact that this chapter is over. People no longer stay in WoW for that feeling I described. They stay here because they want to play an MMO, they have this one they play for years, the one they are used to. There are no MMOs coming out that would actually lure the people from WoW which I (and I believe many other people as well) are looking forward to. Yes, I personally am looking forward to leaving WoW for something better, something new, something that will give me this feeling again. Maybe this also explains that every new mmo has many buyers at start (people who want to leave WoW for something new), but who then realize "no, this is not the game, lets wait for the one that will be really worth it".

    For me, the game ended with death of Arthas because this is where I see the story end.

    This post is a subjective opinion and is to be treated that way. I do not claim that anything of what I mentioned is objective truth, so if you want to challenge anything of what I said, bear that in mind.

     

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by coretex666

    Originally posted by Distopia


    Originally posted by Aerowyn


     

    very true never said any of those would be a massive success either. But right now SWTOR from everything I have seen is in a pretty decent decline much like all the other themepark clones were after release and it has nothing new its really competing with like I said above.. but soon it's going to run into a lot of new stuff to fight against and I just don't see people going to one of these new games and saying man I miss SWTOR ill go back there.. I just don't see it,  for the quality of the game as it is to me I just don't see this game going anywhere..

    After much thought on this subject (hindsight is 20/20 afterall) I can't really call TOR a WOW clone, the game just has a completely different focus than other themeparks. At it's heart TOR really is a Bioware game,  just like any other Bioware game the focus is story, this isn't how WOW, RIFT, LOTRO, etc are. Those games focus on gear grinds, rep grinds, etc... to keep players busy for long periods of time.

    TOR may have those things, they have grinds for sure, the thing is they didn't focus on game-play enough to make those things worth while for many. Again just like any other Bioware game, they spent far more time developing set pieces and cinematically oriented dialogue screnes.

    The big kicker I think really is that this works better in a smaller more corridor like game, while TOR's worlds aren't exactly huge, they're still too big for this type of game-play. Which makes the questing for some feel like a chore. If they really cloned WOW I don't think any of this would be the case.

    just my two cents on the clone topic.



    Wait are you really proposing here that WoW is not a story driven game?

     

    No that's not what I said, what I said was games like WOW actually focus on and polish their gameplay, they make it addictive for those it caters to, I'm not saying TOR's game-play is horrible, it simply serves it's purpose and nothing more. As with any Bioware game.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • AerowynAerowyn Member Posts: 7,928

    Originally posted by Distopia

     

    No that's not what I said, what I said was game likes like WOW actually focus on and polish their gameplay, they make it addictive for those it caters to, I'm not saying TOR's game-play is horrible, it simply serves it's purpose and nothing more. As with any Bioware game.

    and this is why I feel this game isn't going to last.. story content is by far the quickest gamers blow through and for this type of game is going to be the hardest to implement new content. Gameplay to me should be a big focus of a subscription based game you want people to play in for years to come.. I just can't see the thought process of developing a game like this and have gameplay feel like more of an after thought than the main attraction. 

    I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  • chaintmchaintm Member UncommonPosts: 953

    OP,

    this statement:

     

    "Shadowbane, Hellgate London, Tabula Rasa all gets cancelled, and you guys let this game live on?  REALLY?"

     

    says it all. If you think those are awsome MMO's, I can tell you , your not among the majority.

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005

    Originally posted by Netspook

    Originally posted by daveospice

    I was really upset at myself for having spent 60 dollars on this and buying the hype

     

    You played EQ1. You've been a member at this site for several years. This suggests you are a MMO vet.

    Still you haven't learned never to trust hypes?

    No rude intentions, but I can't feel sorry for you.

    THIS.

     

    Really people just STOP buying into hype - I heard dozens of times from many people complaining that they bought box (p2p games) or spent money in cash shop (f2p games) and then quit after few weeks tops cause game was just so bad.

     

    RESEARCH FIRST and stop playing crap games.

     

    Simple.

     

    That means really playing very few titles (even counting SP games) and I guess some ppl can't stand that?

  • Has any mmo (in recent history )not had one of these types of threads after a couple months?

     

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