In any of the dungeon videos that I have seen it is hard for the gamer themselves to get out of the single job mentality that they are used to. I'm sure it will take some adaptation on our part to know what role to play at what times during an encounter. I like this option. Old version. We need heals, dps, and a tank for a fight. That used to be enough, but now current gamers (I'd say most anyway)want something more active and heroic. Making each character in the group capable of fulfilling all of the needs by coordinating combos as well as weapon skills seems like a more complex and entertaining way to do it. Back to the videos, I don't think most of them really could work together as they should because they were just thrown into it @ 30 and simply didn't know. Hopefully on release we will learn how diverse our characters can be instead of.... Stand there and take damage, now move out of the green.... Now stand there and take damage. I welcome the change even if I'm going to suck at it for the first couple weeks.
The most significant change here: your win or loss at an encounter is not predetermined by who you brought to the fight. I am so sick of trying to do content, running up against it over and over, and then realizing that the content only works for a preset group of xyz specific classes.
Not fun, and not even a challenge. You basically win or lose the encounter before you even set foot in it based on who you brought with you. Also if the tank or healer you brought doesn't know how to play, or you brought a leroy jenkins, the entire party will fail.
Hopefully GW2 works differently. Whether there is a trinity or not, roles or not, it's inarguable that it's not difficult to change roles in mid play. You win or lose based on how the people you brought with you actually play. One screwup may get himself killed, but it doesn't mean the game is over or the party will wipe.
There is a trinity, and they have said there is a trinity. It just works differently, and you don't stay with one role throughout combat, or even during a single fight. In order to be successful, you have to switch which role you are on the fly to compensate for what is happening. Everyone is going to heal, everyone is going to "tank," and everyone is going to dps, and everyone is going to support the group in the way they can. Or they are going to struggle, or fail, like most of the groups we have seen in dungeon videos.
They are playing as if there is a traditional trinity, and they are struggling because they are not adapting to the different combat style. It isn't like traditional MMOs, and takes cues from other, more action-oriented games. After a while playing, people will pick up on it and it will be okay.
YES OKAY, but you still have a more specialized role even though you can perform all three (four) roles
well one of my biggest gripes in gw1 was to really suceed at anything, not just group pve but pve also you needed a dedicated healer. which meant many hours spamming LOOKING FOR MONK, instead of playing the game so yeah i'm pretty thrilled.
actually in pve it wasn't always so bad since you had "companions" (as you swtor players would call them) to heal for you, but AI obviously isn't as good and were not up to the most pve challenging missions. And to go very far in random/team arena pvp without a monk was pretty much impossible.
some people liked playing dedicated healer and will miss it being removed, but I think most people like dislike it. infact for me the only fun thing about playing monk in guildwars was that it was so overpowered; you would x10 your chances of winning pvp.
Originally posted by Eir_S
Trinity = three.
No taunts + no ridiculous mitigation = no tank = no Trinity.
Indeed! Although the shame is that one of the original things about the elementalist in gw1 was that thru earth magic he/she could become THE tankiest class in the game.
yes I'm starting to realise playing gw2 is just gona make me miss gw 1 ;/
well one of my biggest gripes in gw1 was to really suceed at anything, not just group pve but pve also you needed a dedicated healer. which meant many hours spamming LOOKING FOR MONK, instead of playing the game so yeah i'm pretty thrilled.
actually in pve it wasn't always so bad since you had "companions" (as you swtor players would call them) to heal for you, but AI obviously isn't as good and were not up to the most pve challenging missions. And to go very far in random/team arena pvp without a monk was pretty much impossible.
some people liked playing dedicated healer and will miss it being removed, but I think most people like dislike it. infact for me the only fun thing about playing monk in guildwars was that it was so overpowered; you would x10 your chances of winning pvp.
Yeah, that sucked. But at times we gave up and used my necro for healing instead which was a lot harder but very interesting. And no, not necro/monk but healing with wells instead. That is PvE though, in PvP it is just impossible since I needed a fresh supply of corpses to heal.
Of course we often used a hero instead of a player as well when we couldn´t get a real monk and that isn´t something you can do in GW2 (and frankly did th necro probably heal better).
Originally posted by brac777 Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
In a way all classes can take that role tank-healer-dps, only thing is one class can do it better then others class but its not pure tank or healer or dps nobody is.
But what i think is, even when devs try change the whole classical gameplay by removing these roles the gamers themselfs are so STUBBORN they force this whole gameplay and typical roles again forcing some take up the TANKS others HEALERS or DPS and other will not take up the role they where not signed to, they will not heal/tank/dps becouse its not what they where ask for lol.
Don't forget this weekend was for most first time they have to adep to new situations so many still try force themselfs in those roles or others force them take up that role.
I already see guilds where people themselfs only play as healer or tank or guildleaders force players tot ake up those roles lol.
What i think is soon enough many will see it won't realy work becouse nobody is realy a TANK - HEALER or DPS and realise all have to do some small part in tanking/healing or diss out some dps.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
because in guild wars 2, you dont need specifically look for a warrior or priest class to do the job. Your grp can be made up of any combination of classes. If there are 5 ppl lfg, all 5 players regardless of class can form a dungeon group for example.
Don't understand where this no trinity business is coming from. In all the videos I've seen, there has been 1 or 2 people dropping down heals, that heal other party, and 1 or 2 guys taking 85% of the damage and agro. Hows that not a trinity? You still have people designated healing, and people designated tanking. Am I missing something here?
because in guild wars 2, you dont need specifically look for a warrior or priest class to do the job. Your grp can be made up of any combination of classes. If there are 5 ppl lfg, all 5 players regardless of class can form a dungeon group for example.
Not only that, but you can also make groups where everyone helps out to heal the group and play support and all players with acceptable armor tanking away mobs from the ones in cloth.
Support, which includes things like healing, buffing, shields, anything that helps you or your allies
Damage, which includes all kinds of damage imaginable
Control, which is about controlling the encounter to your advantage in some way shape or form. Could be debuffs, could be damage absorption, could be knockbacks or knockdowns, could be an impassible wall
Every class in GW2 will have TOOLS that can fulfill each of these roles. Note that classes, and not really even builds, ARE a role, they just have tools to help fill a role.
Yes, it is possible to create a more "support" oriented build, but this does not make your character "support," and it definitely doesn't make you a healer, as you will still be fulfilling the other roles as well, just to a lesser extent.
For a real game example, imagine I'm a guardian using sword and shield. A typical fight might go like this:
1. We notice 4 mobs with bows, and I rush in to their aggro radius first, triggering "Zealot's defense" which blocks their ranged projectiles, allowing my groupmates to get into range without immediately getting pelted (Control).
2. As my allies move forward, I move forward with them and lay down "Symbol of Swiftness" to give us all a speed buff (Support).
3. I now decide to engage the enemy, using my "flashing blade" skill to blind and damage the nearest (Control and Damage).
4. I notice that my allies are taking a beating so I use "Hold the Line!," which grants protection and regen to my allies, while continuing the beat on my opponent with my "1" auto-attack (Support and Damage).
5. Uh-oh! While my protection is helping, it looks like my allies are still in big trouble. I frantically run over to them and use "Shield of Judgment," which knocks all the enemies back giving us a chance to gain some distance and recover. (Control)
See how that would go? There IS supporting your allies and controlling the enemy, but it is decidely NOT the holy trinity in any way shape or form.
Now that was a great example of how a combat encounter can go in GW2 and having seen the 1st dungeon encounter I can see how such a scenario is possible. Shame that what you've said is simply disregarded. And to Sanctum, why is it that you said there is no dedicated healer and then in your next comment you dedicate an entire role to healing?
Sanctum says:
"However you can be heavily focused on support/healing/control/dps"
I've even heard from people in the catacombs videos that someone will probobly go healing heavy (turret etc) because it does help a lot
It's the truth there's no dedicated healing but there's builds heavily focused on healing everyone and supporting
In the Elementalist spotlight videos you will see how important it is to utilize Water and Earth and changing to Fire and air when fighting against the mobs.
In an dungeon, if you tell your groups that you are an Dedicated Healer and you are build for all water healing, you still have to dps, you still have to change to Earth to buff your teams. If you tell your group that you don't know how to utilize your fire and air skills then you are useless, because if your teammates can dodge effectively there shouldn't be a reason for you to stand still and spam healing rain, even if its 2k a heal.
Most heals are for OH SHIT moments, when you have a bad dodge or rolled into another group of mobs.
I just find that having a dedicated role for your character, you are actually limiting yourself to be more effective toward the encounters. But its whatever way you want to play it, thats what makes it different for every character.
Roles exist, but its not dedicated by your class
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
watch the dungeon footage and behold the fate of the guardian who says "ok i'ma tank".
Heh... I know the one you're talking about... that was funny. Someday he'll learn one hopes.
Instead of there being tanks/healers/dps roles, what you have is a system where the damage, support and control elements of combat have been moved to the weapons and skills instead of the players. As such, you don't equip to become a healer, a supporter, a controller... you equip some skills that have the various elements associated with them. When in combat, it's up to you to decide when to use skills that control the enemy, support your allies, etc. Now, you can choose more skills that have specific elements on them, say more control skills, but as a whole you cannot specifically fill a role as an individual.
Most skills actually cover multiple facets of combat, delivering damage while controlling, controlling while buffing allies, all three... so even there the lines are blurred at an individual level. It's all about situational awareness. Mobs running rampant, slow them down. Mobs in control, burn them. Allies need help, use skills that will help support them with buffs, regen, etc.
So forget about having a role. Instead, look at your skills and how each one contributes to the fight. Use your traits to enhance the different facets for your skills to give you greater versatility.
Makes more sense if you allow yourself to think about it all differently.
it's not that complicated, Einstein
Complicated? You find that complicated? It's much simpler than having to create skills and attributes that feed an archaic trinity model. Instead of having characters that are meant to fill set roles, you have the skills and traits available to them to handle what's needed in any given situation. A mesmer can trait such that clones, when present, provide regen to allies nearby and when they shatter the clones cause a cripple on enemies. Bang, you've added supporting and controlling elements to your gameplay and yet avoided any type of role-casting.
player A : Why didn't you heal me, I was getting hit ?
player B: Dodge More
But really, after watching these spotlight videos, I see so much pushback, knockbacks, cripples, walls to prevent the enemy to come close to you. There really is no reason someone would take all the traits for heal only. Even melee has an instant block if they want to prevent damage for a few seconds for that " Oh Shit " moment.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
There is a trinity, and they have said there is a trinity. It just works differently, and you don't stay with one role throughout combat, or even during a single fight. In order to be successful, you have to switch which role you are on the fly to compensate for what is happening. Everyone is going to heal, everyone is going to "tank," and everyone is going to dps, and everyone is going to support the group in the way they can. Or they are going to struggle, or fail, like most of the groups we have seen in dungeon videos.
They are playing as if there is a traditional trinity, and they are struggling because they are not adapting to the different combat style. It isn't like traditional MMOs, and takes cues from other, more action-oriented games. After a while playing, people will pick up on it and it will be okay.
YES OKAY, but you still have a more specialized role even though you can perform all three (four) roles
Why?
Sure you have the option to specialize in one of the roles, but why couldn't you play as just a hybrid of all three roles spreading your focus out evenly?
I don't really get what you have been arguing about over I don't know how many pages Sanctum. It seems like you agree that the "holy trinity" as it exists in WoW and other similar games is not in GW2. But at the same time, you keep trying to push the belief that there is going to be some kind of dedicated role trinity in GW2.
But really, none of us can know this at this point. We know that it is possible to specialize in one role by using the trait system and skill selection, but there is really nothing to make us believe that that gives an advantage over being more of a hybrid.
You can run a dungeon with 5 elementalists if you want. One will be control, one will be support, and the others will be damage. There is no such thing as looking for guardian to tank or something like that. If the elementalists do their job of control and support, no one should die. Same is if you ran with 5 guardians, it really makes no difference as every class can do every role.
Yes you can spec into a specific role, then chat would be dedicated support, dedicated control, or dedicated damage and sadly the players are forcing the trinity role rather than the game.
The game states there is no trinity, the players are the ones that are going to impose that on themselves I think. As for PvP you won't be able to tell if that elementalist is damage, or if they are more there to control you and essentially "tank" you by snaring or silencing you from hitting anyone else.
Secondly, mobs will change aggro on the fly based on who is closest, or random aggro. Seeing as there are no threat meters like in other games where certain abilities raise threat to high, the mob could attack anyone and there is no way to get the monster off them without good control. So now the damage dealing player should switch to control quickly to get the mob to back off with knockbacks, snares while the previous controller switches to damage to compensate.
Sure you have the option to specialize in one of the roles, but why couldn't you play as just a hybrid of all three roles spreading your focus out evenly?
I don't really get what you have been arguing about over I don't know how many pages Sanctum. It seems like you agree that the "holy trinity" as it exists in WoW and other similar games is not in GW2. But at the same time, you keep trying to push the belief that there is going to be some kind of dedicated role trinity in GW2.
But really, none of us can know this at this point. We know that it is possible to specialize in one role by using the trait system and skill selection, but there is really nothing to make us believe that that gives an advantage over being more of a hybrid.
He's never going to understand this system until he both sees and tries to understand the skill synergy.
His point is still coming from a WoW-model mindset, in which the 'roles' are tied to your character (which doesn't exist in GW2). In this game the roles are not only tried to your current weapon/loadout (which can be changed mid-combat), but the weapons aren't designed around the trinity model either.
The skill system in GW2 is more situational (not unlike how it was in GW1) where you're specialized role deals more with the type of attacks / defenses you can counter, rather than the kind of hps / dps output you can manage.
Originally posted by brac777 So essentially it is still the trinity just added some spice to the healers by giving them DPS abilities as well and instead of 1 tank you have a couple of guys with higher mit ability that trade agro. So again I ask why say there is no trinity, when its very obvious that there is still a trinity and class roles?
No "Essentially" there is NO TRINITY Whatsoever!
Please go and learn about the game and if you still don't get it after that you are beyond help and really should stick to console gaming or other simple gaming.
Not an insult, this is genuine advice. If you are so incapable of understanding how this works with all the info out right now, then you will not understand the gameplay well enough to play in a group.
I think you could get together in a group decide on roles and attempt to play the trinity if you want. I don't think anyone can stop you. I think this will be a very bad way to play the game. The game offers so much more but you can then conclude that you are right there is a trinity.
no one can heal you as much as your self. if people are taking a lot of damage there doing it wrong, there are no skills that give someone aggro ie taunt provoke or anything of that matter.
I have yet to watch a video where the self heal was the sole healing a person recieved in PVE. It was more like a supplement to the healing coming from someone else.
The only way you can heal other people in by using AoE heals. Only some classes can even do this as far as I know. You cannot target any specific target with heals or buffs. All AoE heals are signifigantly weaker than self heals. Thus making dedicated healing pointless and pretty much impossible.
I also don't see how it is possible to tank either without any type of provoke or taunt type ability or a perpetual threat accumulating ability unless everyone except 1 person holds back a crap ton so 1 person retains more threat than anyone else. This won't work because if everyone if holding back you are almost guarenteed to die before the enemy does if it is a strong boss. lol
(>^_^)> MMO Veteran <(^_^<) Currently Playing: Tera Online
This thread and my years in WoW have proven healers are a whiny lot. Glad GW2 doesn't have any dedicated healing classes, I don't think I could take the river of tears.
Why? Sure you have the option to specialize in one of the roles, but why couldn't you play as just a hybrid of all three roles spreading your focus out evenly? I don't really get what you have been arguing about over I don't know how many pages Sanctum. It seems like you agree that the "holy trinity" as it exists in WoW and other similar games is not in GW2. But at the same time, you keep trying to push the belief that there is going to be some kind of dedicated role trinity in GW2. But really, none of us can know this at this point. We know that it is possible to specialize in one role by using the trait system and skill selection, but there is really nothing to make us believe that that gives an advantage over being more of a hybrid.
He's never going to understand this system until he both sees and tries to understand the skill synergy. His point is still coming from a WoW-model mindset, in which the 'roles' are tied to your character (which doesn't exist in GW2). In this game the roles are not only tried to your current weapon/loadout (which can be changed mid-combat), but the weapons aren't designed around the trinity model either. The skill system in GW2 is more situational (not unlike how it was in GW1) where you're specialized role deals more with the type of attacks / defenses you can counter, rather than the kind of hps / dps output you can manage.
I think it is a really good thing for balance, individualization, and roleplaying.
You can balance your build and be a real hybrid of the roles, or you can really focus on one or two roles and truly excel at them. It might mean a little more work when finding groups, but I think it will still be easier than other games. A guardian will say something like "I am really more about control, so we should really get someone focused more on healing or dps for this dungeon."
I don't know if this is good or bad, but I don't see it being a serious issue when building groups. Especially if you can change easily before a run. I do think it would be a good idea to have two or three setups available that you can load on the fly, to increase flexibility, but whatever.
I feel like most of this debate comes from GW2 fans, actually. There are people trying to say there will be no roles and people can do whatever whenever. Which is not only not true, but would be a bad idea in a game, I think. Of course, there are horrible trolls trying to egg people on, but I think there are misconceptions or exaggerated ideas on both sides. I am sure Anet is workshopping the issue and will come up with something that's at least passable for launch. I do think this is something that will evolve over time, though. I am sure it's hard to balance and set up a system like this. Look how much talent and train systems in other games change over time.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
As I've always understood it the "holy trinity" conists of 3 very set roles of characters being played.
Tank- should be taking almost all damage from enemies and mostly only does dps to draw more attention to themselves, otherwise a meatbag to beat on.
Healer- responsible almost entirely for keeping the whole party alive by themselves, while some classes may support along side this is usually their role.
DPS- do damage, cc, and keep mobs off the healer if needed
That is the way the "holy Trinity" is as I understand it and that is not the way that guild wars 2 is played by any means what i described in these three examples.
Also its not just that any class can fill any role, rift had that where you can respec to become a healer, tank, or dps role with any of the 4 archetypes, which means you will still be filling a "role"
The reason there is no trinity is lack of these "roles" because without them there is no trinity.
watch the dungeon footage and behold the fate of the guardian who says "ok i'ma tank".
Heh... I know the one you're talking about... that was funny. Someday he'll learn one hopes.
Instead of there being tanks/healers/dps roles, what you have is a system where the damage, support and control elements of combat have been moved to the weapons and skills instead of the players. As such, you don't equip to become a healer, a supporter, a controller... you equip some skills that have the various elements associated with them. When in combat, it's up to you to decide when to use skills that control the enemy, support your allies, etc. Now, you can choose more skills that have specific elements on them, say more control skills, but as a whole you cannot specifically fill a role as an individual.
Most skills actually cover multiple facets of combat, delivering damage while controlling, controlling while buffing allies, all three... so even there the lines are blurred at an individual level. It's all about situational awareness. Mobs running rampant, slow them down. Mobs in control, burn them. Allies need help, use skills that will help support them with buffs, regen, etc.
So forget about having a role. Instead, look at your skills and how each one contributes to the fight. Use your traits to enhance the different facets for your skills to give you greater versatility.
Makes more sense if you allow yourself to think about it all differently.
it's not that complicated, Einstein
Complicated? You find that complicated? It's much simpler than having to create skills and attributes that feed an archaic trinity model. Instead of having characters that are meant to fill set roles, you have the skills and traits available to them to handle what's needed in any given situation. A mesmer can trait such that clones, when present, provide regen to allies nearby and when they shatter the clones cause a cripple on enemies. Bang, you've added supporting and controlling elements to your gameplay and yet avoided any type of role-casting.
You can run a dungeon with 5 elementalists if you want. One will be control, one will be support, and the others will be damage. There is no such thing as looking for guardian to tank or something like that. If the elementalists do their job of control and support, no one should die. Same is if you ran with 5 guardians, it really makes no difference as every class can do every role.
Yes you can spec into a specific role, then chat would be dedicated support, dedicated control, or dedicated damage and sadly the players are forcing the trinity role rather than the game.
The game states there is no trinity, the players are the ones that are going to impose that on themselves I think. As for PvP you won't be able to tell if that elementalist is damage, or if they are more there to control you and essentially "tank" you by snaring or silencing you from hitting anyone else.
Secondly, mobs will change aggro on the fly based on who is closest, or random aggro. Seeing as there are no threat meters like in other games where certain abilities raise threat to high, the mob could attack anyone and there is no way to get the monster off them without good control. So now the damage dealing player should switch to control quickly to get the mob to back off with knockbacks, snares while the previous controller switches to damage to compensate.
Sure you have the option to specialize in one of the roles, but why couldn't you play as just a hybrid of all three roles spreading your focus out evenly?
I don't really get what you have been arguing about over I don't know how many pages Sanctum. It seems like you agree that the "holy trinity" as it exists in WoW and other similar games is not in GW2. But at the same time, you keep trying to push the belief that there is going to be some kind of dedicated role trinity in GW2.
But really, none of us can know this at this point. We know that it is possible to specialize in one role by using the trait system and skill selection, but there is really nothing to make us believe that that gives an advantage over being more of a hybrid.
He's never going to understand this system until he both sees and tries to understand the skill synergy.
His point is still coming from a WoW-model mindset, in which the 'roles' are tied to your character (which doesn't exist in GW2). In this game the roles are not only tried to your current weapon/loadout (which can be changed mid-combat), but the weapons aren't designed around the trinity model either.
The skill system in GW2 is more situational (not unlike how it was in GW1) where you're specialized role deals more with the type of attacks / defenses you can counter, rather than the kind of hps / dps output you can manage.
When did I say that roles are attached to professions? Poor thing, you must have been afflicted with low IQ genetics when concieved.
Specialized Roles = Yes
Need for every role: Yes
Roles for ea Class = No
Tank = No
DEDICATED healer = No, healing oriented build = Yes
When did I say that roles are attached to professions? Poor thing, you must have been afflicted with low IQ genetics when concieved.
Specialized Roles = Yes
Need for every role: Yes
Roles for ea Class = No
Tank = No
DEDICATED healer = No, healing oriented build = Yes
So you agree there's no holy trinity?
Not sure what you're arguing about here, we knew there was going to be a different trinity and also you could run a dungeon with 5 support or 5 control or 5 dps but you would just need to manage your skill sets to be able to switch at the right moments it's a much better system.
you probably shouldn't insult the people you reply to it's not a nice thing to do.
Comments
In any of the dungeon videos that I have seen it is hard for the gamer themselves to get out of the single job mentality that they are used to. I'm sure it will take some adaptation on our part to know what role to play at what times during an encounter. I like this option. Old version. We need heals, dps, and a tank for a fight. That used to be enough, but now current gamers (I'd say most anyway)want something more active and heroic. Making each character in the group capable of fulfilling all of the needs by coordinating combos as well as weapon skills seems like a more complex and entertaining way to do it. Back to the videos, I don't think most of them really could work together as they should because they were just thrown into it @ 30 and simply didn't know. Hopefully on release we will learn how diverse our characters can be instead of.... Stand there and take damage, now move out of the green.... Now stand there and take damage. I welcome the change even if I'm going to suck at it for the first couple weeks.
The most significant change here: your win or loss at an encounter is not predetermined by who you brought to the fight. I am so sick of trying to do content, running up against it over and over, and then realizing that the content only works for a preset group of xyz specific classes.
Not fun, and not even a challenge. You basically win or lose the encounter before you even set foot in it based on who you brought with you. Also if the tank or healer you brought doesn't know how to play, or you brought a leroy jenkins, the entire party will fail.
Hopefully GW2 works differently. Whether there is a trinity or not, roles or not, it's inarguable that it's not difficult to change roles in mid play. You win or lose based on how the people you brought with you actually play. One screwup may get himself killed, but it doesn't mean the game is over or the party will wipe.
YES OKAY, but you still have a more specialized role even though you can perform all three (four) roles
well one of my biggest gripes in gw1 was to really suceed at anything, not just group pve but pve also you needed a dedicated healer. which meant many hours spamming LOOKING FOR MONK, instead of playing the game so yeah i'm pretty thrilled.
actually in pve it wasn't always so bad since you had "companions" (as you swtor players would call them) to heal for you, but AI obviously isn't as good and were not up to the most pve challenging missions. And to go very far in random/team arena pvp without a monk was pretty much impossible.
some people liked playing dedicated healer and will miss it being removed, but I think most people like dislike it. infact for me the only fun thing about playing monk in guildwars was that it was so overpowered; you would x10 your chances of winning pvp.
Indeed! Although the shame is that one of the original things about the elementalist in gw1 was that thru earth magic he/she could become THE tankiest class in the game.
yes I'm starting to realise playing gw2 is just gona make me miss gw 1 ;/
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Yeah, that sucked. But at times we gave up and used my necro for healing instead which was a lot harder but very interesting. And no, not necro/monk but healing with wells instead. That is PvE though, in PvP it is just impossible since I needed a fresh supply of corpses to heal.
Of course we often used a hero instead of a player as well when we couldn´t get a real monk and that isn´t something you can do in GW2 (and frankly did th necro probably heal better).
So no, I wont miss a dedicated healer.
In a way all classes can take that role tank-healer-dps, only thing is one class can do it better then others class but its not pure tank or healer or dps nobody is.
But what i think is, even when devs try change the whole classical gameplay by removing these roles the gamers themselfs are so STUBBORN they force this whole gameplay and typical roles again forcing some take up the TANKS others HEALERS or DPS and other will not take up the role they where not signed to, they will not heal/tank/dps becouse its not what they where ask for lol.
Don't forget this weekend was for most first time they have to adep to new situations so many still try force themselfs in those roles or others force them take up that role.
I already see guilds where people themselfs only play as healer or tank or guildleaders force players tot ake up those roles lol.
What i think is soon enough many will see it won't realy work becouse nobody is realy a TANK - HEALER or DPS and realise all have to do some small part in tanking/healing or diss out some dps.
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because in guild wars 2, you dont need specifically look for a warrior or priest class to do the job. Your grp can be made up of any combination of classes. If there are 5 ppl lfg, all 5 players regardless of class can form a dungeon group for example.
Not only that, but you can also make groups where everyone helps out to heal the group and play support and all players with acceptable armor tanking away mobs from the ones in cloth.
In the Elementalist spotlight videos you will see how important it is to utilize Water and Earth and changing to Fire and air when fighting against the mobs.
In an dungeon, if you tell your groups that you are an Dedicated Healer and you are build for all water healing, you still have to dps, you still have to change to Earth to buff your teams. If you tell your group that you don't know how to utilize your fire and air skills then you are useless, because if your teammates can dodge effectively there shouldn't be a reason for you to stand still and spam healing rain, even if its 2k a heal.
Most heals are for OH SHIT moments, when you have a bad dodge or rolled into another group of mobs.
I just find that having a dedicated role for your character, you are actually limiting yourself to be more effective toward the encounters. But its whatever way you want to play it, thats what makes it different for every character.
Roles exist, but its not dedicated by your class
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Complicated? You find that complicated? It's much simpler than having to create skills and attributes that feed an archaic trinity model. Instead of having characters that are meant to fill set roles, you have the skills and traits available to them to handle what's needed in any given situation. A mesmer can trait such that clones, when present, provide regen to allies nearby and when they shatter the clones cause a cripple on enemies. Bang, you've added supporting and controlling elements to your gameplay and yet avoided any type of role-casting.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I can see it now....
player A : Why didn't you heal me, I was getting hit ?
player B: Dodge More
But really, after watching these spotlight videos, I see so much pushback, knockbacks, cripples, walls to prevent the enemy to come close to you. There really is no reason someone would take all the traits for heal only. Even melee has an instant block if they want to prevent damage for a few seconds for that " Oh Shit " moment.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Why?
Sure you have the option to specialize in one of the roles, but why couldn't you play as just a hybrid of all three roles spreading your focus out evenly?
I don't really get what you have been arguing about over I don't know how many pages Sanctum. It seems like you agree that the "holy trinity" as it exists in WoW and other similar games is not in GW2. But at the same time, you keep trying to push the belief that there is going to be some kind of dedicated role trinity in GW2.
But really, none of us can know this at this point. We know that it is possible to specialize in one role by using the trait system and skill selection, but there is really nothing to make us believe that that gives an advantage over being more of a hybrid.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You can run a dungeon with 5 elementalists if you want. One will be control, one will be support, and the others will be damage. There is no such thing as looking for guardian to tank or something like that. If the elementalists do their job of control and support, no one should die. Same is if you ran with 5 guardians, it really makes no difference as every class can do every role.
Yes you can spec into a specific role, then chat would be dedicated support, dedicated control, or dedicated damage and sadly the players are forcing the trinity role rather than the game.
The game states there is no trinity, the players are the ones that are going to impose that on themselves I think. As for PvP you won't be able to tell if that elementalist is damage, or if they are more there to control you and essentially "tank" you by snaring or silencing you from hitting anyone else.
Secondly, mobs will change aggro on the fly based on who is closest, or random aggro. Seeing as there are no threat meters like in other games where certain abilities raise threat to high, the mob could attack anyone and there is no way to get the monster off them without good control. So now the damage dealing player should switch to control quickly to get the mob to back off with knockbacks, snares while the previous controller switches to damage to compensate.
He's never going to understand this system until he both sees and tries to understand the skill synergy.
His point is still coming from a WoW-model mindset, in which the 'roles' are tied to your character (which doesn't exist in GW2). In this game the roles are not only tried to your current weapon/loadout (which can be changed mid-combat), but the weapons aren't designed around the trinity model either.
The skill system in GW2 is more situational (not unlike how it was in GW1) where you're specialized role deals more with the type of attacks / defenses you can counter, rather than the kind of hps / dps output you can manage.
No "Essentially" there is NO TRINITY Whatsoever!
Please go and learn about the game and if you still don't get it after that you are beyond help and really should stick to console gaming or other simple gaming.
Not an insult, this is genuine advice. If you are so incapable of understanding how this works with all the info out right now, then you will not understand the gameplay well enough to play in a group.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I think you could get together in a group decide on roles and attempt to play the trinity if you want. I don't think anyone can stop you. I think this will be a very bad way to play the game. The game offers so much more but you can then conclude that you are right there is a trinity.
The only way you can heal other people in by using AoE heals. Only some classes can even do this as far as I know. You cannot target any specific target with heals or buffs. All AoE heals are signifigantly weaker than self heals. Thus making dedicated healing pointless and pretty much impossible.
I also don't see how it is possible to tank either without any type of provoke or taunt type ability or a perpetual threat accumulating ability unless everyone except 1 person holds back a crap ton so 1 person retains more threat than anyone else. This won't work because if everyone if holding back you are almost guarenteed to die before the enemy does if it is a strong boss. lol
(>^_^)> MMO Veteran <(^_^<)
Currently Playing: Tera Online
This thread and my years in WoW have proven healers are a whiny lot. Glad GW2 doesn't have any dedicated healing classes, I don't think I could take the river of tears.
I think it is a really good thing for balance, individualization, and roleplaying.
You can balance your build and be a real hybrid of the roles, or you can really focus on one or two roles and truly excel at them. It might mean a little more work when finding groups, but I think it will still be easier than other games. A guardian will say something like "I am really more about control, so we should really get someone focused more on healing or dps for this dungeon."
I don't know if this is good or bad, but I don't see it being a serious issue when building groups. Especially if you can change easily before a run. I do think it would be a good idea to have two or three setups available that you can load on the fly, to increase flexibility, but whatever.
I feel like most of this debate comes from GW2 fans, actually. There are people trying to say there will be no roles and people can do whatever whenever. Which is not only not true, but would be a bad idea in a game, I think. Of course, there are horrible trolls trying to egg people on, but I think there are misconceptions or exaggerated ideas on both sides. I am sure Anet is workshopping the issue and will come up with something that's at least passable for launch. I do think this is something that will evolve over time, though. I am sure it's hard to balance and set up a system like this. Look how much talent and train systems in other games change over time.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Nice one! +1
Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge!
As I've always understood it the "holy trinity" conists of 3 very set roles of characters being played.
Tank- should be taking almost all damage from enemies and mostly only does dps to draw more attention to themselves, otherwise a meatbag to beat on.
Healer- responsible almost entirely for keeping the whole party alive by themselves, while some classes may support along side this is usually their role.
DPS- do damage, cc, and keep mobs off the healer if needed
That is the way the "holy Trinity" is as I understand it and that is not the way that guild wars 2 is played by any means what i described in these three examples.
Also its not just that any class can fill any role, rift had that where you can respec to become a healer, tank, or dps role with any of the 4 archetypes, which means you will still be filling a "role"
The reason there is no trinity is lack of these "roles" because without them there is no trinity.
sarcasm detector level: -9001
This guy agrees with me. Why don't you flame him?
When did I say that roles are attached to professions? Poor thing, you must have been afflicted with low IQ genetics when concieved.
Specialized Roles = Yes
Need for every role: Yes
Roles for ea Class = No
Tank = No
DEDICATED healer = No, healing oriented build = Yes
So you agree there's no holy trinity?
Not sure what you're arguing about here, we knew there was going to be a different trinity and also you could run a dungeon with 5 support or 5 control or 5 dps but you would just need to manage your skill sets to be able to switch at the right moments it's a much better system.
you probably shouldn't insult the people you reply to it's not a nice thing to do.