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Why do I have to become more powerful?

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  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Member Posts: 1,036

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by UknownAspect


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn



    I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?

    You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.

    That was not my intended claim.  Perhaps I came off as too strong.  I understand  That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor.  And is simply used as an artificial gate.  There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.

     

    Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.

     

    I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.

    So you'd like to see a game where you earn new skills, but your core abilities never change? Traveling, training, and all that should naturally make you a physically and mentally stronger being. New spells and weapon techniques alone do not an adventurer make. Not over the course of a lifelong journey.

     

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by Kuinn


    Originally posted by UknownAspect


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn



    I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?

    You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.

    That was not my intended claim.  Perhaps I came off as too strong.  I understand  That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor.  And is simply used as an artificial gate.  There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.

     

    Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.

     

    I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.



    New abilities and talents would have an identical result.

     

    Nope, currently in games only thing that restricts me regardless if I have that uber assault 6 that I'd get in 5 more levels is the fact that a monster 6 levels above me has 3 times more health and dodges + parries everything I throw at it. Same goes with PvP in most mmorpgs. That's just the fact of things. If it wasnt for the steep leveling power gains I would have chance against those players and monsters unless I'm just a bad player who does not know what they are doing.

     

    You must realize that in current games we have new abilities and talents + a ton of stats and hp. Reducing or taking away the stat gains + hp gains would result in more balanced game experience that absolutely would not have identical results. That's just common sense to realize this.

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by Kuinn


    Originally posted by UknownAspect


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn



    I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?

    You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.

    That was not my intended claim.  Perhaps I came off as too strong.  I understand  That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor.  And is simply used as an artificial gate.  There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.

     

    Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.

     

    I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.

    So you'd like to see a game where you earn new skills, but your core abilities never change? Traveling, training, and all that should naturally make you a physically and mentally stronger being. New spells and weapon techniques alone do not an adventurer make. Not over the course of a lifelong journey.

     

     

    I hate to repeat my self but I've said a couple of times, like in that quote... that instead of gaining a shitloads of stats with the common super steep powergain based system, you could gain significantly less per level, making the game experience more balanced, the whole game world would be more accessible and world PvP more balanced.

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072

    Originally posted by AdamTM

    Originally posted by Kuinn


    Originally posted by UknownAspect


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn



    I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?

    You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.

    That was not my intended claim.  Perhaps I came off as too strong.  I understand  That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor.  And is simply used as an artificial gate.  There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.

     

    Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.

     

    I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.

    You need to balance the flat lvl curve with something, and thats whats happening right now, the old system of doing 9999+ dmg is being phased out and in come systems where you will need to play smart instead of relying on your bigass numbers.

    Bigass numbers work in SP games well, because nobody is interfering/watching you play. So if you invest 300 hours into FF10 and can essentially oneshot the endboss, nobody cares, because the game is not competitive (neither pve competitive nor pvp competitive).

    In an MMO if someone figures out how to one-shot Deathwing in WoW, everyone will be up in arms and the game will be called "broken".

    This is less about mechanics and more about psychology and social group-dynamics.

     

    This basically. I'm not sure if I'm arguing here with people who play SP games mostly since I really dont care if you have 1hp at lvl1 there and 1084739847hp at lvl3 there. It does not matter. In mmorpgs it's just stupid when a guy who levels one day more when you are off town becomes invulnerable towards you the next time you meet him in game, one shotting everything at your lvl and so forth. What an interesting mechanic for a massively multiplayer game, it basically restricts people of different levels having any meaningful interaction between eachothers. That's one of the things why GW2 is looking quite promising, smoothening the ridicilous power-differences between players interacting with one another.

     

    I have an alt in TOR at lvl20, and I dont even want my borther to help me with heroics and flashpoints when his character is at lvl38 because it's such a bore-fest when he comes with his demigod and one shots every super mega Darth deathbringer with basic attack. He's not just more powerful, more powerful is fine, but he's a god, a destroyer of worlds (unless he enters an area few levels above him), and that's outdated imo, in mmorpgs at least.

  • TazlorTazlor Member UncommonPosts: 864

    Why are people so intent on playing MMORPGs when it's clear that they aren't interested in the genre? This is like asking why I have to shoot in a shooter.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    RPG mechanics of +1 and +2 etc. don't fit a sandbox. Levels don't fit a sandbox.

    RPG mechanics of progression are inherently linear, and thus don't fit a sandbox.

    You know why Skyrim and other such RPG's are such good sandboxes? There is no progression per say because the game world levels up with you.

    It's also why Minecraft is such a good sandbox.

    Sandbox = from the moment you start you have all the tools available to you, you just have to find them/seek them out and play with them.

    Horizontal advancement is what a true sandbox needs, not verticle advancement.

    I'd love to see a MMO made with 100% horizontal advancement.

    Your character progresses by learning more stuff, not learning to do the same thing better.

    Linear, vertical progression creates seperation and isolation of your community.

    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    I blame Everquest - took the D&D / DiKu MUD ideas of vertical, linear progression and slapped them onto the MMO space.

    Genre was doomed to repeat this mistake from nearly the beginning.

    UO was the only game to "almost" get it right - about the highest vertical progression point was the difference between Longsword and Longsword +1 which was mostly negligable.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by Kuinn

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn


    Originally posted by UknownAspect


    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by Kuinn



    I've never claimed RPG's should get rid of the usually used system of becoming more powerful by gaining levels, or making the games FPS/twitch based, while you keep bringing it up and arguing against while it has nothing to do with my posts at all, how irritating is that?

    You didn't but the OP did, and you said you completely agreed with him. If this isn't the case, then the error made was yours, not anyone else's.

    That was not my intended claim.  Perhaps I came off as too strong.  I understand  That numbers go up, and they've always been a factor, but I think it is ridiculous when it is the ONLY factor.  And is simply used as an artificial gate.  There is no need to have 100 levels when the same thing can be done in 40.

     

    Or have 100 levels, just get rid of the insanely steep power gain through every level, you get new abilities and talents, you dont need to get a bag full of stats on top of that, sure fine give stats, just not so damn much, it restricts the gameplay on so many levels having all the content + PvP based on "you have to be exactly lvl5-6 to do this/to fight this person, if you are under that you have no chance, if you are above that there's no point, no xp, no useful rewards" <- that's a bad and too restrictive system, very much a "handholding" type of mechanic to keep you on the rails while breaking world PvP in mmorpgs.

     

    I love leveling in my (mmo)RPG's, I just dont like how it affects everything around me, for having so ridicilously big numbers involved in it when they could be significantly smaller, or just ability and talent gains would work perfectly well for me too.

    So you'd like to see a game where you earn new skills, but your core abilities never change? Traveling, training, and all that should naturally make you a physically and mentally stronger being. New spells and weapon techniques alone do not an adventurer make. Not over the course of a lifelong journey.

     

     

    I hate to repeat my self but I've said a couple of times, like in that quote... that instead of gaining a shitloads of stats with the common super steep powergain based system, you could gain significantly less per level, making the game experience more balanced, the whole game world would be more accessible and world PvP more balanced.



    So you want to remove progression? Good to know.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    RPG mechanics of +1 and +2 etc. don't fit a sandbox. Levels don't fit a sandbox.

    RPG mechanics of progression are inherently linear, and thus don't fit a sandbox.

    You know why Skyrim and other such RPG's are such good sandboxes? There is no progression per say because the game world levels up with you.

    It's also why Minecraft is such a good sandbox.

    Sandbox = from the moment you start you have all the tools available to you, you just have to find them/seek them out and play with them.

    Horizontal advancement is what a true sandbox needs, not verticle advancement.

    I'd love to see a MMO made with 100% horizontal advancement.

    Your character progresses by learning more stuff, not learning to do the same thing better.

    Linear, vertical progression creates seperation and isolation of your community.

    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    I blame Everquest - took the D&D / DiKu MUD ideas of vertical, linear progression and slapped them onto the MMO space.

    Genre was doomed to repeat this mistake from nearly the beginning.

    UO was the only game to "almost" get it right - about the highest vertical progression point was the difference between Longsword and Longsword +1 which was mostly negligable.



    There is no such thing as horizontal progression.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    So you want to remove progression? Good to know.

    Yes.

    Best MMOs to date in terms of progression?

    UO and SWG.

    More horizontal progression than vertical.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    There is no such thing as horizontal progression.

    False.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    There is no such thing as horizontal progression.

    False.

    No its not. All progression creates differentials. "Horizontal progression" is just a different skin and lowering vertical progression.

    SWG totally had vertical progression, as did UO.

  • GibboniciGibbonici Member UncommonPosts: 472

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    RPG mechanics of +1 and +2 etc. don't fit a sandbox. Levels don't fit a sandbox.

    RPG mechanics of progression are inherently linear, and thus don't fit a sandbox.

    You know why Skyrim and other such RPG's are such good sandboxes? There is no progression per say because the game world levels up with you.

    It's also why Minecraft is such a good sandbox.

    Sandbox = from the moment you start you have all the tools available to you, you just have to find them/seek them out and play with them.

    Horizontal advancement is what a true sandbox needs, not verticle advancement.

    I'd love to see a MMO made with 100% horizontal advancement.

    Your character progresses by learning more stuff, not learning to do the same thing better.

    Linear, vertical progression creates seperation and isolation of your community.

    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    I blame Everquest - took the D&D / DiKu MUD ideas of vertical, linear progression and slapped them onto the MMO space.

    Genre was doomed to repeat this mistake from nearly the beginning.

    UO was the only game to "almost" get it right - about the highest vertical progression point was the difference between Longsword and Longsword +1 which was mostly negligable.



    Yep, I totally agree with you here.

  • KhaerosKhaeros Member Posts: 452

    'Horizontal progression' is great if you want to make a game where all of its players are tanky DPS, gishes, or unviable

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    There is no such thing as horizontal progression.

    False.

    No its not. All progression creates differentials. "Horizontal progression" is just a different skin and lowering vertical progression.

    SWG totally had vertical progression, as did UO.

    Exactly.

    "lowering vertical progression."

     

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    There is no such thing as horizontal progression.

    False.

    No its not. All progression creates differentials. "Horizontal progression" is just a different skin and lowering vertical progression.

    SWG totally had vertical progression, as did UO.

    Exactly.

    "lowering vertical progression."

     



    you can do that just by lowering stat gains per level. thats lessening progression, not making it horizontal.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Khaeros

    'Horizontal progression' is great if you want to make a game where all of its players are tanky DPS, gishes, or unviable

    Look at EvE online examples of horizontal progression.

    Sure, you can fly a Tier 3 frigate, a Tier 2 battleship, a Capital ship Carrier, and a logistics vessel...

    but can you fly them all at the same time? Nope.

    Horizontal progression does NOT mean "everyone can do everything all the time."

    Horizontal progression = building up your deck of available cards.

    But you can only have so many in your hand at once.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Member Posts: 1,036

    Originally posted by BadSpock

     

    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    How is this different from "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You don't have the right skills."?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    you can do that just by lowering stat gains per level. thats lessening progression, not making it horizontal.

    See above EvE example :)

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Cuathon



    you can do that just by lowering stat gains per level. thats lessening progression, not making it horizontal.

    See above EvE example :)

    Titan says what?

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    How is this different from "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You don't have the right skills."?

    Depends on how you define "skills."

    If you are talking about skill progression like Swordsmanship 1-100 than it is the exact same thing as levels, just with a different name.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    you can do that just by lowering stat gains per level. thats lessening progression, not making it horizontal.

    See above EvE example :)

    Titan says what?

    eh?

    Point is, you can't fly every ship type at once. Only one ship at a time.

    So it doesn't matter if you can fly a Titan when you are flying a Frigate.

     

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by FrostWyrm


    Originally posted by BadSpock



    "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You aren't high enough level and/or have good enough gear."

    That ^ = MMO fail.

    How is this different from "Oh I'm sorry, you can't play with us. You don't have the right skills."?

    Depends on how you define "skills."

    If you are talking about skill progression like Swordsmanship 1-100 than it is the exact same thing as levels, just with a different name.

    Also, if one player can use a tier 3 battleship and you can only use a tier 3 frigate, you are going to lose. There is still vertical progression. Because having more options means you win, just like having my brute force.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,975

    Originally posted by Cuathon

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Depends on how you define "skills."

    If you are talking about skill progression like Swordsmanship 1-100 than it is the exact same thing as levels, just with a different name.

    Also, if one player can use a tier 3 battleship and you can only use a tier 3 frigate, you are going to lose. There is still vertical progression. Because having more options means you win, just like having my brute force.

    You are stuck on a specific game used as a reference, a game with terrible, terrible design balance.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by BadSpock


    Originally posted by Cuathon



    you can do that just by lowering stat gains per level. thats lessening progression, not making it horizontal.

    See above EvE example :)

    Titan says what?

    eh?

    Point is, you can't fly every ship type at once. Only one ship at a time.

    So it doesn't matter if you can fly a Titan when you are flying a Frigate.

     

    Titan beats frigate. A player who can use a titan wins 1v1 against anyone who can't. If you could field 10000 titans than it doesn't matter if you have 10000 tier 3 battleships because you lose. Vertical progression based on economic strength.

  • CuathonCuathon Member Posts: 2,211

    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Originally posted by Cuathon


    Originally posted by BadSpock



    Depends on how you define "skills."

    If you are talking about skill progression like Swordsmanship 1-100 than it is the exact same thing as levels, just with a different name.

    Also, if one player can use a tier 3 battleship and you can only use a tier 3 frigate, you are going to lose. There is still vertical progression. Because having more options means you win, just like having my brute force.

    You are stuck on a specific game used as a reference, a game with terrible, terrible design balance.

    It doesn't matter how you design it! Horizontal progression is an illusion. If I am progressed "horizontally" with more utility and equal power and you have less utility and equal power the player with more utility wins.

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