I agree. If this came out in 2007 it would be a legit alternative to WoW. But in 2012 it just seems dated. We've already been doing all this stuff for years in WoW.
WoW was dated when it was released. We'd already been doing that stuff since 1999 in EverQuest. LotRO, AoC, WAR, all dated upon release, because they clone an already boring overused overplayed game style. Yet WoW still worked, why? It appealed to non MMO gamers. That's whats kept it going, non MMO gamers.
So, TOR's failure (relative) has nothing to do with timing really. It's just a bad game all around.
I think we should be honest now. Games like Lineage2, DAOC, UO, EvE and others are Far away form what WoW was at release. Quests? what?... it was a GRIND... Think Daoc had a quest every 10 level or something? lineage2 was even worse. Basicly you found a good grind spot and you killed MOBS untill you couldent see straight. It was still alot of FUN because you had deep crafting, good PvP mechanics and one hell of a comunity..
Compared to the competion in 2004 The Zone design in WoW was brilliant, the Quest system was Brilliant the classes were Brilliant. Lineage2 had 4 classes that split as you leveld up, they had no way near the Innovation that Uniqness that WoW classes had. I still loved Lineage2 but WoW was hands down a superior product in its time...
Im kinda sick and tired of people romaticising the gold old days. FACTS WoW was more FUN then anny of them. I mean I remeber my first real instanced dungeon (we had bitched and moaned ofc, before WoW came out about how fucked up it would be, no open world shit to fight over, how crappy isent this going to be) But Faced with these Instances, lots of gear dropping( you dident have that in the old games either, you were lucky if you broke even after killing mobs for 5 hours using soulshards to power your attacks in lineage2) I was personaly Blown away. So much content so many things to do. Wailing Caverns, blackfathom deeps, shadowfang keep, Razorfen kraul and down and the scarlet monestary.. I had not even hit Level 35 and allready some much shit I could do...
Open world fights in ashenvale, that is were it started in europe.. later it moved to southshore and tarren mill. But it all started in ashenvale... vanilla WOW was NEW for its time, Classes were cool, You could tame animals on your hunter that keept their special abilites(they patched that away later , I fondly remeber my special wolf who did shadowdamage). For one who has actually played both pree WoW games, games that came out the same time as WoW and games that came after.. I can with good confidence tell you all that WoW was Innovating for most of us... The other game that Was Innovating and that came out at about the same time was EvE online. And these 2 games are the only games that have keept growing in the western market for the past 8 years...
That dosent mean I dont miss the good old days. With harsher death penelties, more meaningfull crafting etc. .. But crafting in vanilla WoW was still hard. I remember farming endless mobbs to get my Crusader and beastslayer enchants.. Weapon glowing White and Red..
But get Real dude we had not been doing it the WoW way before it came out.. World bosses fighting for spawns, PvPing and griefing the shit out of one another.. that is what we had been doing before WoW came out. Hell WoW is the first game I let my GF try, because I knew she could never take getting Perma stomped in the games I played before World of Warcraft... And that is another thing that WoW revoultionized, being easy to access, more Girls got into playing MMOS then ever Before... We have many things to thank Blizzard for. Sadly we also have them to thank for making all other developers mindless drones.
The Next big step should have been to mix even more Theampark with sandbox, perfectig more old fetures and gamemechanics. But instead what we got was Copy Cat games with even more dumb down mechanics with little to No innovation... All this has lead us up to this point. That still 8 years after WoWs Release we are still playing it in one form or another. Blizzard sure is happy, they will soon get there new game out Titan? And they will probably again make something that appeals to more people. New mechanics, Old mechanics.. all mixed together with the rite type of balance. Most people will try it, many will love it and Bioware/EA/CRYPTIC/FUNCOM and all the rest will spend the next decade trying to copy it... That is my prediction anyways..
I agree. If this came out in 2007 it would be a legit alternative to WoW. But in 2012 it just seems dated. We've already been doing all this stuff for years in WoW.
WoW was dated when it was released. We'd already been doing that stuff since 1999 in EverQuest. LotRO, AoC, WAR, all dated upon release, because they clone an already boring overused overplayed game style. Yet WoW still worked, why? It appealed to non MMO gamers. That's whats kept it going, non MMO gamers.
So, TOR's failure (relative) has nothing to do with timing really. It's just a bad game all around.
I think we should be honest now. Games like Lineage2, DAOC, UO, EvE and others are Far away form what WoW was at release. Quests? what?... it was a GRIND... Think Daoc had a quest every 10 level or something? lineage2 was even worse. Basicly you found a good grind spot and you killed MOBS untill you couldent see straight. It was still alot of FUN because you had deep crafting, good PvP mechanics and one hell of a comunity..
Compared to the competion in 2004 The Zone design in WoW was brilliant, the Quest system was Brilliant the classes were Brilliant. Lineage2 had 4 classes that split as you leveld up, they had no way near the Innovation that Uniqness that WoW classes had. I still loved Lineage2 but WoW was hands down a superior product in its time...
Im kinda sick and tired of people romaticising the gold old days. FACTS WoW was more FUN then anny of them. I mean I remeber my first real instanced dungeon (we had bitched and moaned ofc, before WoW came out about how fucked up it would be, no open world shit to fight over, how crappy isent this going to be) But Faced with these Instances, lots of gear dropping( you dident have that in the old games either, you were lucky if you broke even after killing mobs for 5 hours using soulshards to power your attacks in lineage2) I was personaly Blown away. So much content so many things to do. Wailing Caverns, blackfathom deeps, shadowfang keep, Razorfen kraul and down and the scarlet monestary.. I had not even hit Level 35 and allready some much shit I could do...
Open world fights in ashenvale, that is were it started in europe.. later it moved to southshore and tarren mill. But it all started in ashenvale... vanilla WOW was NEW for its time, Classes were cool, You could tame animals on your hunter that keept their special abilites(they patched that away later , I fondly remeber my special wolf who did shadowdamage). For one who has actually played both pree WoW games, games that came out the same time as WoW and games that came after.. I can with good confidence tell you all that WoW was Innovating for most of us... The other game that Was Innovating and that came out at about the same time was EvE online. And these 2 games are the only games that have keept growing in the western market for the past 8 years...
That dosent mean I dont miss the good old days. With harsher death penelties, more meaningfull crafting etc. .. But crafting in vanilla WoW was still hard. I remember farming endless mobbs to get my Crusader and beastslayer enchants.. Weapon glowing White and Red..
But get Real dude we had not been doing it the WoW way before it came out.. World bosses fighting for spawns, PvPing and griefing the shit out of one another.. that is what we had been doing before WoW came out. Hell WoW is the first game I let my GF try, because I knew she could never take getting Perma stomped in the games I played before World of Warcraft... And that is another thing that WoW revoultionized, being easy to access, more Girls got into playing MMOS then ever Before... We have many things to thank Blizzard for. Sadly we also have them to thank for making all other developers mindless drones.
The Next big step should have been to mix even more Theampark with sandbox, perfectig more old fetures and gamemechanics. But instead what we got was Copy Cat games with even more dumb down mechanics with little to No innovation... All this has lead us up to this point. That still 8 years after WoWs Release we are still playing it in one form or another. Blizzard sure is happy, they will soon get there new game out Titan? And they will probably again make something that appeals to more people. New mechanics, Old mechanics.. all mixed together with the rite type of balance. Most people will try it, many will love it and Bioware/EA/CRYPTIC/FUNCOM and all the rest will spend the next decade trying to copy it... That is my prediction anyways..
I think we should be honest now. Games like Lineage2, DAOC, UO, EvE and others are Far away form what WoW was at release. Quests? what?... it was a GRIND... Think Daoc had a quest every 10 level or something? lineage2 was even worse. Basicly you found a good grind spot and you killed MOBS untill you couldent see straight. It was still alot of FUN because you had deep crafting, good PvP mechanics and one hell of a comunity..
Compared to the competion in 2004 The Zone design in WoW was brilliant, the Quest system was Brilliant the classes were Brilliant. Lineage2 had 4 classes that split as you leveld up, they had no way near the Innovation that Uniqness that WoW classes had. I still loved Lineage2 but WoW was hands down a superior product in its time...
Yeah, that's not the way I see it.
I almost reach cap in Lineage 2 a few times. WoW? I started a character at launch and I think over the years I got him to lvl 36 or 37.
For me lineage 2 was a far more superior product. It didn't have all the Bells and Whistles that WoW did but it was the better game world.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I don't know what they can do at this point if they go for the same formula used by EQ, WoW, and the others. Least not if they're expecting to have those same type of sub numbers. I simply don't think it is realistic.
WoW was in a unique position. They did combine the best attributes of several other games and put it in one package. They also came out at a time where there wasn't near the amount of mmos there are now. They were able to tap into a market and make mmos mainstream. They grabbed a huge portion of the EQ fanbase due to their timing not to mention fans of the other Warcraft games. It was the perfect storm.
Some was their own doing which regardless what some may think is rather impressive to me and honestly some of it was simply being in the right place at the right time with the right product.
Even if a game was to be near flawless in its launch and execution though I wonder if it could really compete on any level close to WoW. With all the mmos out there and no matter what they do in the newer games even for many that stick it out to the end game what is the biggest complaint? Not enough...not enough content, not enough to do, not enough raids, not enough group centric goals, not enough solo material, not enough PvP material, not enough crafting, not enough social events, etc. on and on and on.
It doesn't matter how things were then. I know people like to beat this old tired drum and they even have a point to a degree but that doesn't change the fact that the expectations of their customer has changed drastically. Some can argue all they want whether this is reasonable or not but it doesn't change the fact that it has.
How is any new game supposed to compete with these others even some besides WoW that have been out for years? i think they have to change their mind set completely. I don't really envy them. Because if they're dealing with investors that expect a return anywhere close to what happened with WoW I have no idea how they're supposed to bring that to fruition. I'm not sure it is even realistic unless they simply turn the genre on its head.
So I suppose they are too late to the party. Frankly, all of these games are if they expected to be the next juggernaut or even remotely close.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I agree. If this came out in 2007 it would be a legit alternative to WoW. But in 2012 it just seems dated. We've already been doing all this stuff for years in WoW.
WoW was dated when it was released. We'd already been doing that stuff since 1999 in EverQuest. LotRO, AoC, WAR, all dated upon release, because they clone an already boring overused overplayed game style. Yet WoW still worked, why? It appealed to non MMO gamers. That's whats kept it going, non MMO gamers.
So, TOR's failure (relative) has nothing to do with timing really. It's just a bad game all around.
<snip>a lot of wisdom</snip>
Well said, Timeout. I won't quote you to reduce embed chaos, lol, but I agree with much of what you said. I fancy myself kind of an industry watcher...I'm an earlier adopter of games. My main reason for being on MMORPG.com is to catch wind of new, embryonic games that few people have heard about. Anyway, that's neither here nor there...
The reality is that while EQ, DAoC, AC1 were riding the wave of innovation, Blizzard was looking at the industry and said what can we do it differently AND better. And they did it. Today, major developers look at the industry and ask how can we do it the same, but better. Now whether they succeed at better is debatable, but undoubtably they are persuing 'same'.
I personally have been interested in comparing the incredible success of Minecraft to a very similar game Love. Both are innovative, both allow unprecedent manipulation of the game environment. One could say Minecraft is less pretty than Love. Love has more fidelity in controlling how the terrain is manipulated, whereas Minecraft is, famously, quite blocky.
Why has Minecraft taken off and not Love? It's an intersting question..Perhaps not one for this thread. One important reason, I believe, is the ease of access of Minecraft. It's a dead simple interface. Much like WoW had a dead simple interface. Love's interface is a bit clunky and less intuitive.
I believe the sandbox MMO that cracks the ease of use interface will probably be a break out hit.
I agree. If this came out in 2007 it would be a legit alternative to WoW. But in 2012 it just seems dated. We've already been doing all this stuff for years in WoW.
WoW was dated when it was released. We'd already been doing that stuff since 1999 in EverQuest. LotRO, AoC, WAR, all dated upon release, because they clone an already boring overused overplayed game style. Yet WoW still worked, why? It appealed to non MMO gamers. That's whats kept it going, non MMO gamers.
So, TOR's failure (relative) has nothing to do with timing really. It's just a bad game all around.
WoW wasn't dated at its release. Please try and get some perspective. A handful of nerds were playing Everquest. For the overwhelming majority of people WoW was a new thing.
So I suppose they are too late to the party. Frankly, all of these games are if they expected to be the next juggernaut or even remotely close.
The way you avoid that, is to create your own party....not join the party late and try to keep it going till 8 in the morning.
Yes, the WoW party has started. It's peaking. If you're a developer, and you're not already creating the next wave, you're too late. Minecraft and ArcheAge feel, to me at least, as though they are at base of this new wave. If you're starting the developement of a game today, you can't be looking at WoW, or SWTOR. You should looking at Minecraft, ArcheAge, perhaps even GW2, and trying to innovate off of these games, because in a few years they might be the next big thing. And if you're timing is right, you'll be developing/releasing your own game while these games have peaked.
Long story short, if you're trying to innovate off of WoW or SWTOR, you're too late already. You need to be a few generations ahead of the games coming out.
I agree. If this came out in 2007 it would be a legit alternative to WoW. But in 2012 it just seems dated. We've already been doing all this stuff for years in WoW.
WoW was dated when it was released. We'd already been doing that stuff since 1999 in EverQuest. LotRO, AoC, WAR, all dated upon release, because they clone an already boring overused overplayed game style. Yet WoW still worked, why? It appealed to non MMO gamers. That's whats kept it going, non MMO gamers.
So, TOR's failure (relative) has nothing to do with timing really. It's just a bad game all around.
I think we should be honest now. Games like Lineage2, DAOC, UO, EvE and others are Far away form what WoW was at release. Quests? what?... it was a GRIND... Think Daoc had a quest every 10 level or something? lineage2 was even worse. Basicly you found a good grind spot and you killed MOBS untill you couldent see straight. It was still alot of FUN because you had deep crafting, good PvP mechanics and one hell of a comunity..
Compared to the competion in 2004 The Zone design in WoW was brilliant, the Quest system was Brilliant the classes were Brilliant. Lineage2 had 4 classes that split as you leveld up, they had no way near the Innovation that Uniqness that WoW classes had. I still loved Lineage2 but WoW was hands down a superior product in its time...
Im kinda sick and tired of people romaticising the gold old days. FACTS WoW was more FUN then anny of them. I mean I remeber my first real instanced dungeon (we had bitched and moaned ofc, before WoW came out about how fucked up it would be, no open world shit to fight over, how crappy isent this going to be) But Faced with these Instances, lots of gear dropping( you dident have that in the old games either, you were lucky if you broke even after killing mobs for 5 hours using soulshards to power your attacks in lineage2) I was personaly Blown away. So much content so many things to do. Wailing Caverns, blackfathom deeps, shadowfang keep, Razorfen kraul and down and the scarlet monestary.. I had not even hit Level 35 and allready some much shit I could do...
Open world fights in ashenvale, that is were it started in europe.. later it moved to southshore and tarren mill. But it all started in ashenvale... vanilla WOW was NEW for its time, Classes were cool, You could tame animals on your hunter that keept their special abilites(they patched that away later , I fondly remeber my special wolf who did shadowdamage). For one who has actually played both pree WoW games, games that came out the same time as WoW and games that came after.. I can with good confidence tell you all that WoW was Innovating for most of us... The other game that Was Innovating and that came out at about the same time was EvE online. And these 2 games are the only games that have keept growing in the western market for the past 8 years...
That dosent mean I dont miss the good old days. With harsher death penelties, more meaningfull crafting etc. .. But crafting in vanilla WoW was still hard. I remember farming endless mobbs to get my Crusader and beastslayer enchants.. Weapon glowing White and Red..
But get Real dude we had not been doing it the WoW way before it came out.. World bosses fighting for spawns, PvPing and griefing the shit out of one another.. that is what we had been doing before WoW came out. Hell WoW is the first game I let my GF try, because I knew she could never take getting Perma stomped in the games I played before World of Warcraft... And that is another thing that WoW revoultionized, being easy to access, more Girls got into playing MMOS then ever Before... We have many things to thank Blizzard for. Sadly we also have them to thank for making all other developers mindless drones.
The Next big step should have been to mix even more Theampark with sandbox, perfectig more old fetures and gamemechanics. But instead what we got was Copy Cat games with even more dumb down mechanics with little to No innovation... All this has lead us up to this point. That still 8 years after WoWs Release we are still playing it in one form or another. Blizzard sure is happy, they will soon get there new game out Titan? And they will probably again make something that appeals to more people. New mechanics, Old mechanics.. all mixed together with the rite type of balance. Most people will try it, many will love it and Bioware/EA/CRYPTIC/FUNCOM and all the rest will spend the next decade trying to copy it... That is my prediction anyways..
+1 also, this is so true and it's amazing to actually see someone who played those games back in the day.. what came before, what came after and not a bunch of wrath babies who think they know it all... well contructed post, kudos
The way you avoid that, is to create your own party....not join the party late and try to keep it going till 8 in the morning.
Yes, the WoW party has started. It's peaking. If you're a developer, and you're not already creating the next wave, you're too late. Minecraft and ArcheAge feel, to me at least, as though they are at base of this new wave. If you're starting the developement of a game today, you can't be looking at WoW, or SWTOR. You should looking at Minecraft, ArcheAge, perhaps even GW2, and trying to innovate off of these games, because in a few years they might be the next big thing. And if you're timing is right, you'll be developing/releasing your own game while these games have peaked.
Long story short, if you're trying to innovate off of WoW or SWTOR, you're too late already. You need to be a few generations ahead of the games coming out.
I agree. To an extent. I question the mass appeal a game like Minecraft or ArchAge will have though. That isn't to say I dismiss it either. All depends on what the people behind the game consider to be successful.
To me, a game able to combine both elements together is really the only chance there is for something to shoot through this industry like lightning and grab an enormous fanbase. You find a way to pull that off then I think you're on to something.
Because at the end of the day if you're banking on the majority of people being content on going through the same old routine at your product's end game you're sunk. There is no way you will be able to have the amount of content compared to these other games due to the amount of time they have been around. Not to mention those that will simply complain it's the same old schtick.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Problem is, they were going for a generic formula and did not attempt anything of their own. If they had tried to push something new they would of actually had some group, but instead they stuck to as generic as it could be and kept it identical to any fantasy MMO out there, to the point it servers to be even MORE generic then most games out their in their design. No matter how early they released it, they would of taken less steps and had a different game. The state the game is in now is due to the fact they wanted to emulate the generic fantasy MMo format to a T and I'm sure a lot of the time spent was 'catching up' to match identical to what other MMos have.
I seriously feel this game would be a failure no matter when it was released. The only way it would of done well would be...
A.) They took a time machine back from today with what they had and released it in the past before a lot of what they tried was first introduced. Sure, it wouldn't be the most 'glorious' game but it would of done well enough on its own.
B.) They had attempted to be an original, ditching the 'copying generic MMO' concept and actually attempted to do more, pushing in an alignment system and really trying to be less forceful of keeping the classes generic in the game. They could of had less classes around (easier balance possibly) while not making it feel so forced. It would of been something they could of been renown for in the future that really would of made it stand out, even if it wasn't so popular it make an imprint in MMO history.
Star Wars is actually a good game, just really really really late to the party.
This, which is what sums up your post, couldn't be put any better. It is EXACTLY how I and truckload of people feel as well. This would have been outstanding in 2006, but too little too late i'm afraid. Great post for sure. Sums up how i feel about it.
Then of course all the voice talent wasnt cheap, some of the big name people they hired don't come cheap.
Then add in that this was their first online project, they did not have the hardware in place like most mmo developers to develope and host an mmo, so they had to spend a butt load for server farms.
Then I am sure having never done it before they did not always choose the most economical means to achieve a goal.
Lack of experience, basically learning from scratch takes trial and error which again is not as cheap as a developer that has that experience.
Star Wars is actually a good game, just really really really late to the party.
I attended an entrepreneurial seminar at my University a few weeks ago, and your analogy sums up the point of that seminar quite succinctly.
The innovation curve is something that all companies try to join while the wave of that curve is rising. WoW did this, Zynga did this with its Facebook and browser games, etc. You see it in successful businesses all the time. Once the peak of that innovation curve is reached, the innovators are reaping the rewards and are already researching the next wave so that they can catch it on the upswing again.
The less successful companies enter into the market at the peak of an innovation curve (or at the end of it, thinking the curve will last longer than it really does), and are always playing catch-up.
You're right...SWTOR is a good game, AND it is also on the back end of the innovation curve. My guess is that SWTOR will likely be one of the last games of its design. The time is ripe for a 'guitar-hero' sort of revolution in the MMO industry...and it is probably happening even as I type this. Is it Minecraft? Is it Love? Is it ArcheAge? EQ Next? We don't know for sure.
I agree with most of what you said except... when you mention WoW and innovation in the same sentence. WoW didn't innovate. It just had the great amount of luck to be the first MMO to have a pre established developer and a huge marketing budget. And I also disgree with SWTOR being a good game. It's the worst of singleplayer and the worst of MMO worlds meshed together. People try to defend it by saying the singleplayer stuff is fine, and it is acceptable, not great. But, the game is billed as an MMO, not a singleplayer game, and it should be judged thusly. And as it stands, SWTOR is a horrible MMO.
Sorry, but WoW DID innovate. Look, I hate WoW personally, but to say it didn't create one of the most easily accessible MMOs ever is to ignore the impenatrable state of the genre in the early 2000s. Yeah, I get it..you personally hate these types of games. Doesn't mean they weren't innovative. To ignore that is to ignore the lessons it teaches future developers about the process. Don't let your personal biases spoil your objectivity.
I don't want to turn this into a debate about WoW innovation, or whether SWTOR is good, or whether it is an MMO. These discussion have been done to death. Aren't you tired of them yet?
The take away from the OP's post, which I felt was quite salient, is that SWTOR has come out on the backside of the innovation curve...or as he put it, late to the party. I sincerely believe it will be one of the last of its kind (barring its own expansions).
Lol. WoW did not innovate.
WoW took all of the existing elements of games like EQ and UO and streamlined them into an existing IP (Warcraft).
WoW was in the right place at the right time. It came out when computers and internet were hitting records of usage all across the globe. Previously, computers were still in the underground(ish) and were not as acessible to people as they are now.
Thats why, when you play games from the late 90's to early 2000's, they are generally marketed towards a more hardcore audience. Take Unreal Tournament and Quake.
In terms of your "innovation curve" WoW came on exactly at the right time. But WoW wasn't innovative - not at all. The curve is more for businesses that capitalize on the innovation itself; not create innovation. Blizzard did not create anything, they really just copied an existing formula and tweaked a few things. Thats why business theories and models arent always 100% foolproof. (I've taken business courses and even the professors will acknowledge this fact).
....And thats also why if you create a social media company NOW, you will most likely get only a fraction of the market. Why? Because Facebook already grabbed most of it. The same thing happened with TOR. The only social media companies that will take a larger piece of the market, are ones that truly innovate, not copy existing designs - like what Twitter and Tumblr did.
Sorry, but WoW DID innovate. Look, I hate WoW personally, but to say it didn't create one of the most easily accessible MMOs ever is to ignore the impenatrable state of the genre in the early 2000s. Yeah, I get it..you personally hate these types of games. Doesn't mean they weren't innovative. To ignore that is to ignore the lessons it teaches future developers about the process. Don't let your personal biases spoil your objectivity.
I don't want to turn this into a debate about WoW innovation, or whether SWTOR is good, or whether it is an MMO. These discussion have been done to death. Aren't you tired of them yet?
The take away from the OP's post, which I felt was quite salient, is that SWTOR has come out on the backside of the innovation curve...or as he put it, late to the party. I sincerely believe it will be one of the last of its kind (barring its own expansions).
Lol. WoW did not innovate.
WoW took all of the existing elements of games like EQ and UO and streamlined them into an existing IP (Warcraft).
WoW was in the right place at the right time. It came out when computers and internet were hitting records of usage all across the globe. Previously, computers were still in the underground(ish) and were not as acessible to people as they are now.
Thats why, when you play games from the late 90's to early 2000's, they are generally marketed towards a more hardcore audience. Take Unreal Tournament and Quake.
In terms of your "innovation curve" WoW came on exactly at the right time. But WoW wasn't innovative - not at all. The curve is more for businesses that capitalize on the innovation itself; not create innovation. Blizzard did not create anything, they really just copied an existing formula and tweaked a few things. Thats why business theories and models arent always 100% foolproof. (I've taken business courses and even the professors will acknowledge this fact).
....And thats also why if you create a social media company NOW, you will most likely get only a fraction of the market. Why? Because Facebook already grabbed most of it. The same thing happened with TOR. The only social media companies that will take a larger piece of the market, are ones that truly innovate, not copy existing designs - like what Twitter and Tumblr did.
Can you please describe for me the mechanics you think WoW stole and from what game etc? and Im not talking about Minimaps and action bars.. Name a pre WoW game that used the same accessablility, same amount of quests, WASD moving. Had the same amount of unique Classes (Not same function mirrored) had Class questlines. Instances that had Triggers in them, making them play diffrently if you had done something in the gameworld.. had the quest to start it etc.. Waling caverns, zul'ferak.. and many other INSTANCED dungeons in WoW had Trigger content.. so you couldent access everythibng unless you did some other things in the world first. Also do me a favor and list the games with the same zone variety that WoW had at release? And WoWs death penelty the corps run? many games use that before it came out? Please tell me about these games because I sure never played them.. I played DOAC, EQ 1-2, Lineage2 and Achreron's call 2 but I sure must have missed something.... So please enlighten me? From Doacs 3 based fractions, to EQs lack of classes, and lieage2 and aheron's calls fractionless setups.. And the deep crafting.. what mechanics did they steal? WoW had 2 fractions.. easy access crafting(still grindy but cant compare it to lineage2 and asherons call 2) Deep zone verity ( cant say a feel anny of the others had that.. not in the way WoW used them) heavy Instancing? EQ 2 had a few systems to stop people from stealing.. but overall? FACTS ARE pree WoW games played WASTLY DIFFRENT THEN how WoW did things.. if you dont want to call that Innovating FINE.. but you cant change facts..
Do you know what a "train" is? and why we used to "kite" so much in the old days? do you know why we used to look for "good Spawn points". When we killed Mobbs in the old days we often looked for a certain condition to make it most effective? you remmber what that was? "PK" often used term you know why? Do you know why I deleveld myself by throwing myself off cliff in Lineage 2? Why would I do that?
Just give me some examples of your pre WoW experince I sure like to know..
Star Wars is actually a good game, just really really really late to the party.
This, which is what sums up your post, couldn't be put any better. It is EXACTLY how I and truckload of people feel as well. This would have been outstanding in 2006, but too little too late i'm afraid. Great post for sure. Sums up how i feel about it.
Yeah pretty much feel the same way. And then when you have comments like this:
James Ohlen (Bioware Studio Creative Director and LEAD designer) : "One of the problems of other MMOs combat is that often you have scenarios where you have multiple heroes beating on a single enemy.That just isn't very heroic"
It just makes poking fun of TORTANIC that much easier. I mean just a nudge.
Just give me some examples of your pre WoW experince I sure like to know..
City of Heroes had a bunch of the things you're talking about 2 years before WoW. It was the first true 2nd gen MMORPG, and its game engine was waaaay ahead of its time, with extraordinarily fluid combat (only bettered by WoW and GW later).
In fact, it also had full 3-d movement, including aerial combat, 6 years before the over-hyped Aion, as well as things like ragdoll physics, falling damage, and of course character customization up the wazoo. I remember playing WoW and GW after my addiction to CoX, and I was utterly shocked at how primitive they were, in some ways (the restriction of movement was most noticeable), and somehow very "floaty" feeling, not "solid" like CoX.
It also had an innovation, when it first came out (and even for a good few years after WoW) that I wish other games would be brave enough to have - no loot (as such - there were buff power-ups and enhancements for builds, but they dropped randomly and automatically into your inventory).
Loot is the real root of all evil in MMOs, IMHO. It stops game flow, both in a "strategic" sense (gameplay concepts become oriented around getting it) and in a "tactical" sense (peoples' minds are stopped and started by loot considerations in the course of an instance, you can't get a real "flow state" going).
The result is that MMOs become hamster wheels instead of an eternal present "flow state" - chasing a future that never comes, instead of being content with the now.
Sorry, but WoW DID innovate. Look, I hate WoW personally, but to say it didn't create one of the most easily accessible MMOs ever is to ignore the impenatrable state of the genre in the early 2000s. Yeah, I get it..you personally hate these types of games. Doesn't mean they weren't innovative. To ignore that is to ignore the lessons it teaches future developers about the process. Don't let your personal biases spoil your objectivity.
I don't want to turn this into a debate about WoW innovation, or whether SWTOR is good, or whether it is an MMO. These discussion have been done to death. Aren't you tired of them yet?
The take away from the OP's post, which I felt was quite salient, is that SWTOR has come out on the backside of the innovation curve...or as he put it, late to the party. I sincerely believe it will be one of the last of its kind (barring its own expansions).
Lol. WoW did not innovate.
WoW took all of the existing elements of games like EQ and UO and streamlined them into an existing IP (Warcraft).
WoW was in the right place at the right time. It came out when computers and internet were hitting records of usage all across the globe. Previously, computers were still in the underground(ish) and were not as acessible to people as they are now.
Thats why, when you play games from the late 90's to early 2000's, they are generally marketed towards a more hardcore audience. Take Unreal Tournament and Quake.
In terms of your "innovation curve" WoW came on exactly at the right time. But WoW wasn't innovative - not at all. The curve is more for businesses that capitalize on the innovation itself; not create innovation. Blizzard did not create anything, they really just copied an existing formula and tweaked a few things. Thats why business theories and models arent always 100% foolproof. (I've taken business courses and even the professors will acknowledge this fact).
....And thats also why if you create a social media company NOW, you will most likely get only a fraction of the market. Why? Because Facebook already grabbed most of it. The same thing happened with TOR. The only social media companies that will take a larger piece of the market, are ones that truly innovate, not copy existing designs - like what Twitter and Tumblr did.
Can you please describe for me the mechanics you think WoW stole and from what game etc? and Im not talking about Minimaps and action bars.. Name a pre WoW game that used the same accessablility, same amount of quests, WASD moving. Had the same amount of unique Classes (Not same function mirrored) had Class questlines. Instances that had Triggers in them, making them play diffrently if you had done something in the gameworld.. had the quest to start it etc.. Waling caverns, zul'ferak.. and many other INSTANCED dungeons in WoW had Trigger content.. so you couldent access everythibng unless you did some other things in the world first. Also do me a favor and list the games with the same zone variety that WoW had at release? And WoWs death penelty the corps run? many games use that before it came out? Please tell me about these games because I sure never played them.. I played DOAC, EQ 1-2, Lineage2 and Achreron's call 2 but I sure must have missed something.... So please enlighten me? From Doacs 3 based fractions, to EQs lack of classes, and lieage2 and aheron's calls fractionless setups.. And the deep crafting.. what mechanics did they steal? WoW had 2 fractions.. easy access crafting(still grindy but cant compare it to lineage2 and asherons call 2) Deep zone verity ( cant say a feel anny of the others had that.. not in the way WoW used them) heavy Instancing? EQ 2 had a few systems to stop people from stealing.. but overall? FACTS ARE pree WoW games played WASTLY DIFFRENT THEN how WoW did things.. if you dont want to call that Innovating FINE.. but you cant change facts..
Do you know what a "train" is? and why we used to "kite" so much in the old days? do you know why we used to look for "good Spawn points". When we killed Mobbs in the old days we often looked for a certain condition to make it most effective? you remmber what that was? "PK" often used term you know why? Do you know why I deleveld myself by throwing myself off cliff in Lineage 2? Why would I do that?
Just give me some examples of your pre WoW experince I sure like to know..
First of all, WoW didnt "steal" any mechanics. I dont believe thats a good term. Games don't steal ideas from other games.
Second of all, you have to watch your spelling. Because of this, my response is going to be shorter because clearly you havent spent all that much time editing your post. So, you dont really care....?
This is really a non debate issue. There are extensive interviews of Blizzard developers talking about the development of Warcraft. Blizz devs went around and surveyed MMO players asking them what they liked about current games, and what they didnt like.
Thus, WoW had alot of the same concepts as previous games - but stripped down. I think WoW had new ideas, but new ideas don't equal innovation. Innovation is exclusive for people who really push the bar, like Twitter. Twitter is innovative. But is Facebook innovative?
Guess what - when I was in high school in the early 2000's, it was all Myspace. Facebook came AFTER Myspace and the rest was history. But Facebook was based off of Myspace's design. Now shall we call Facebook innovative just because its successful?
I think not. The same with WoW.
And half of these things dont make sense. Zone variety? I played WoW vanilla, there was little to none zone variety back then. If you were alliance, half the time you played in a typical foresty fantasy land. If you were horde, you played in "rough" areas like the Barrens.
WoW had a streamlined quests, with excalamation points on top of their heads. But EQ and other games before it had similar quest designs. You call that innovative?
I could go on but alas, your spelling is horrible and I cant. Sorry.
Nope not terrible timing just piss poor gameplay IMO. The game has tons of potential but they should of taken some of that 300 million $$$ and put it to good use in actual game design and innovative game philosophy. As far as the actual release of the game it has a ton of bugs and not enough content, but in 1 to 2 years it might actually be a decent game sadly 76% of the player base will ahve moved on by that time.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Star Wars is actually a good game, just really really really late to the party.
I attended an entrepreneurial seminar at my University a few weeks ago, and your analogy sums up the point of that seminar quite succinctly.
The innovation curve is something that all companies try to join while the wave of that curve is rising. WoW did this, Zynga did this with its Facebook and browser games, etc. You see it in successful businesses all the time. Once the peak of that innovation curve is reached, the innovators are reaping the rewards and are already researching the next wave so that they can catch it on the upswing again.
The less successful companies enter into the market at the peak of an innovation curve (or at the end of it, thinking the curve will last longer than it really does), and are always playing catch-up.
You're right...SWTOR is a good game, AND it is also on the back end of the innovation curve. My guess is that SWTOR will likely be one of the last games of its design. The time is ripe for a 'guitar-hero' sort of revolution in the MMO industry...and it is probably happening even as I type this. Is it Minecraft? Is it Love? Is it ArcheAge? EQ Next? We don't know for sure.
I agree with most of what you said except... when you mention WoW and innovation in the same sentence. WoW didn't innovate. It just had the great amount of luck to be the first MMO to have a pre established developer and a huge marketing budget. And I also disgree with SWTOR being a good game. It's the worst of singleplayer and the worst of MMO worlds meshed together. People try to defend it by saying the singleplayer stuff is fine, and it is acceptable, not great. But, the game is billed as an MMO, not a singleplayer game, and it should be judged thusly. And as it stands, SWTOR is a horrible MMO.
i beg to differ wow did innovate, in fact they improved on evercrack raiding system, broke it down to small groups and this progressed to large raids for phat loots, tweaked the agro system, having cartoony graphics means wow is able to support a wide range of pc which unfortunately eq2 could not. wow concentrated on pve first and then pvp. these factors combined with their brand name and on the success of warcraft helped heaps.
i could still remember the total immersion of playing wow during the early days where the rather cartoony world feels so alive and vibrant as compared to the dated everquest world.
Comments
I think we should be honest now. Games like Lineage2, DAOC, UO, EvE and others are Far away form what WoW was at release. Quests? what?... it was a GRIND... Think Daoc had a quest every 10 level or something? lineage2 was even worse. Basicly you found a good grind spot and you killed MOBS untill you couldent see straight. It was still alot of FUN because you had deep crafting, good PvP mechanics and one hell of a comunity..
Compared to the competion in 2004 The Zone design in WoW was brilliant, the Quest system was Brilliant the classes were Brilliant. Lineage2 had 4 classes that split as you leveld up, they had no way near the Innovation that Uniqness that WoW classes had. I still loved Lineage2 but WoW was hands down a superior product in its time...
Im kinda sick and tired of people romaticising the gold old days. FACTS WoW was more FUN then anny of them. I mean I remeber my first real instanced dungeon (we had bitched and moaned ofc, before WoW came out about how fucked up it would be, no open world shit to fight over, how crappy isent this going to be) But Faced with these Instances, lots of gear dropping( you dident have that in the old games either, you were lucky if you broke even after killing mobs for 5 hours using soulshards to power your attacks in lineage2) I was personaly Blown away. So much content so many things to do. Wailing Caverns, blackfathom deeps, shadowfang keep, Razorfen kraul and down and the scarlet monestary.. I had not even hit Level 35 and allready some much shit I could do...
Open world fights in ashenvale, that is were it started in europe.. later it moved to southshore and tarren mill. But it all started in ashenvale... vanilla WOW was NEW for its time, Classes were cool, You could tame animals on your hunter that keept their special abilites(they patched that away later
, I fondly remeber my special wolf who did shadowdamage). For one who has actually played both pree WoW games, games that came out the same time as WoW and games that came after.. I can with good confidence tell you all that WoW was Innovating for most of us... The other game that Was Innovating and that came out at about the same time was EvE online. And these 2 games are the only games that have keept growing in the western market for the past 8 years...
That dosent mean I dont miss the good old days. With harsher death penelties, more meaningfull crafting etc. .. But crafting in vanilla WoW was still hard. I remember farming endless mobbs to get my Crusader and beastslayer enchants.. Weapon glowing White and Red..
But get Real dude we had not been doing it the WoW way before it came out.. World bosses fighting for spawns, PvPing and griefing the shit out of one another.. that is what we had been doing before WoW came out. Hell WoW is the first game I let my GF try, because I knew she could never take getting Perma stomped in the games I played before World of Warcraft... And that is another thing that WoW revoultionized, being easy to access, more Girls got into playing MMOS then ever Before... We have many things to thank Blizzard for. Sadly we also have them to thank for making all other developers mindless drones.
The Next big step should have been to mix even more Theampark with sandbox, perfectig more old fetures and gamemechanics. But instead what we got was Copy Cat games with even more dumb down mechanics with little to No innovation... All this has lead us up to this point. That still 8 years after WoWs Release we are still playing it in one form or another. Blizzard sure is happy, they will soon get there new game out Titan? And they will probably again make something that appeals to more people. New mechanics, Old mechanics.. all mixed together with the rite type of balance. Most people will try it, many will love it and Bioware/EA/CRYPTIC/FUNCOM and all the rest will spend the next decade trying to copy it... That is my prediction anyways..
+1
Yeah, that's not the way I see it.
I almost reach cap in Lineage 2 a few times. WoW? I started a character at launch and I think over the years I got him to lvl 36 or 37.
For me lineage 2 was a far more superior product. It didn't have all the Bells and Whistles that WoW did but it was the better game world.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I don't know what they can do at this point if they go for the same formula used by EQ, WoW, and the others. Least not if they're expecting to have those same type of sub numbers. I simply don't think it is realistic.
WoW was in a unique position. They did combine the best attributes of several other games and put it in one package. They also came out at a time where there wasn't near the amount of mmos there are now. They were able to tap into a market and make mmos mainstream. They grabbed a huge portion of the EQ fanbase due to their timing not to mention fans of the other Warcraft games. It was the perfect storm.
Some was their own doing which regardless what some may think is rather impressive to me and honestly some of it was simply being in the right place at the right time with the right product.
Even if a game was to be near flawless in its launch and execution though I wonder if it could really compete on any level close to WoW. With all the mmos out there and no matter what they do in the newer games even for many that stick it out to the end game what is the biggest complaint? Not enough...not enough content, not enough to do, not enough raids, not enough group centric goals, not enough solo material, not enough PvP material, not enough crafting, not enough social events, etc. on and on and on.
It doesn't matter how things were then. I know people like to beat this old tired drum and they even have a point to a degree but that doesn't change the fact that the expectations of their customer has changed drastically. Some can argue all they want whether this is reasonable or not but it doesn't change the fact that it has.
How is any new game supposed to compete with these others even some besides WoW that have been out for years? i think they have to change their mind set completely. I don't really envy them. Because if they're dealing with investors that expect a return anywhere close to what happened with WoW I have no idea how they're supposed to bring that to fruition. I'm not sure it is even realistic unless they simply turn the genre on its head.
So I suppose they are too late to the party. Frankly, all of these games are if they expected to be the next juggernaut or even remotely close.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Well said, Timeout. I won't quote you to reduce embed chaos, lol, but I agree with much of what you said. I fancy myself kind of an industry watcher...I'm an earlier adopter of games. My main reason for being on MMORPG.com is to catch wind of new, embryonic games that few people have heard about. Anyway, that's neither here nor there...
The reality is that while EQ, DAoC, AC1 were riding the wave of innovation, Blizzard was looking at the industry and said what can we do it differently AND better. And they did it. Today, major developers look at the industry and ask how can we do it the same, but better. Now whether they succeed at better is debatable, but undoubtably they are persuing 'same'.
I personally have been interested in comparing the incredible success of Minecraft to a very similar game Love. Both are innovative, both allow unprecedent manipulation of the game environment. One could say Minecraft is less pretty than Love. Love has more fidelity in controlling how the terrain is manipulated, whereas Minecraft is, famously, quite blocky.
Why has Minecraft taken off and not Love? It's an intersting question..Perhaps not one for this thread. One important reason, I believe, is the ease of access of Minecraft. It's a dead simple interface. Much like WoW had a dead simple interface. Love's interface is a bit clunky and less intuitive.
I believe the sandbox MMO that cracks the ease of use interface will probably be a break out hit.
WoW wasn't dated at its release. Please try and get some perspective. A handful of nerds were playing Everquest. For the overwhelming majority of people WoW was a new thing.
The way you avoid that, is to create your own party....not join the party late and try to keep it going till 8 in the morning.
Yes, the WoW party has started. It's peaking. If you're a developer, and you're not already creating the next wave, you're too late. Minecraft and ArcheAge feel, to me at least, as though they are at base of this new wave. If you're starting the developement of a game today, you can't be looking at WoW, or SWTOR. You should looking at Minecraft, ArcheAge, perhaps even GW2, and trying to innovate off of these games, because in a few years they might be the next big thing. And if you're timing is right, you'll be developing/releasing your own game while these games have peaked.
Long story short, if you're trying to innovate off of WoW or SWTOR, you're too late already. You need to be a few generations ahead of the games coming out.
If you want keen insight read the other thousand versions of this thread.
+1 also, this is so true and it's amazing to actually see someone who played those games back in the day.. what came before, what came after and not a bunch of wrath babies who think they know it all... well contructed post, kudos
I agree. To an extent. I question the mass appeal a game like Minecraft or ArchAge will have though. That isn't to say I dismiss it either. All depends on what the people behind the game consider to be successful.
To me, a game able to combine both elements together is really the only chance there is for something to shoot through this industry like lightning and grab an enormous fanbase. You find a way to pull that off then I think you're on to something.
Because at the end of the day if you're banking on the majority of people being content on going through the same old routine at your product's end game you're sunk. There is no way you will be able to have the amount of content compared to these other games due to the amount of time they have been around. Not to mention those that will simply complain it's the same old schtick.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Problem is, they were going for a generic formula and did not attempt anything of their own. If they had tried to push something new they would of actually had some group, but instead they stuck to as generic as it could be and kept it identical to any fantasy MMO out there, to the point it servers to be even MORE generic then most games out their in their design. No matter how early they released it, they would of taken less steps and had a different game. The state the game is in now is due to the fact they wanted to emulate the generic fantasy MMo format to a T and I'm sure a lot of the time spent was 'catching up' to match identical to what other MMos have.
I seriously feel this game would be a failure no matter when it was released. The only way it would of done well would be...
A.) They took a time machine back from today with what they had and released it in the past before a lot of what they tried was first introduced. Sure, it wouldn't be the most 'glorious' game but it would of done well enough on its own.
B.) They had attempted to be an original, ditching the 'copying generic MMO' concept and actually attempted to do more, pushing in an alignment system and really trying to be less forceful of keeping the classes generic in the game. They could of had less classes around (easier balance possibly) while not making it feel so forced. It would of been something they could of been renown for in the future that really would of made it stand out, even if it wasn't so popular it make an imprint in MMO history.
This, which is what sums up your post, couldn't be put any better. It is EXACTLY how I and truckload of people feel as well. This would have been outstanding in 2006, but too little too late i'm afraid. Great post for sure. Sums up how i feel about it.
Lucas took a huge % of it for liscensing fees.
Then of course all the voice talent wasnt cheap, some of the big name people they hired don't come cheap.
Then add in that this was their first online project, they did not have the hardware in place like most mmo developers to develope and host an mmo, so they had to spend a butt load for server farms.
Then I am sure having never done it before they did not always choose the most economical means to achieve a goal.
Lack of experience, basically learning from scratch takes trial and error which again is not as cheap as a developer that has that experience.
Other computer games also have development times of 4-7 years, just like MMOs.
Lol. WoW did not innovate.
WoW took all of the existing elements of games like EQ and UO and streamlined them into an existing IP (Warcraft).
WoW was in the right place at the right time. It came out when computers and internet were hitting records of usage all across the globe. Previously, computers were still in the underground(ish) and were not as acessible to people as they are now.
Thats why, when you play games from the late 90's to early 2000's, they are generally marketed towards a more hardcore audience. Take Unreal Tournament and Quake.
In terms of your "innovation curve" WoW came on exactly at the right time. But WoW wasn't innovative - not at all. The curve is more for businesses that capitalize on the innovation itself; not create innovation. Blizzard did not create anything, they really just copied an existing formula and tweaked a few things. Thats why business theories and models arent always 100% foolproof. (I've taken business courses and even the professors will acknowledge this fact).
....And thats also why if you create a social media company NOW, you will most likely get only a fraction of the market. Why? Because Facebook already grabbed most of it. The same thing happened with TOR. The only social media companies that will take a larger piece of the market, are ones that truly innovate, not copy existing designs - like what Twitter and Tumblr did.
In one way their timing was superb - releasing at christmas after a very short nda lift.
no one around to do a proper review, just pushing forward thier pre launch preview hype as reviews of the game.
no they don't Im currently working on a AAA FPS about to release, we've worked on it just over 2 years.
This tale tells all, remember it is Prime time as well http://www.swtor.com/server-status, can't hide from the facts, this game is hemorraging subs.
Can you please describe for me the mechanics you think WoW stole and from what game etc? and Im not talking about Minimaps and action bars.. Name a pre WoW game that used the same accessablility, same amount of quests, WASD moving. Had the same amount of unique Classes (Not same function mirrored) had Class questlines. Instances that had Triggers in them, making them play diffrently if you had done something in the gameworld.. had the quest to start it etc.. Waling caverns, zul'ferak.. and many other INSTANCED dungeons in WoW had Trigger content.. so you couldent access everythibng unless you did some other things in the world first. Also do me a favor and list the games with the same zone variety that WoW had at release? And WoWs death penelty the corps run? many games use that before it came out? Please tell me about these games because I sure never played them.. I played DOAC, EQ 1-2, Lineage2 and Achreron's call 2 but I sure must have missed something.... So please enlighten me? From Doacs 3 based fractions, to EQs lack of classes, and lieage2 and aheron's calls fractionless setups.. And the deep crafting.. what mechanics did they steal? WoW had 2 fractions.. easy access crafting(still grindy but cant compare it to lineage2 and asherons call 2) Deep zone verity ( cant say a feel anny of the others had that.. not in the way WoW used them) heavy Instancing? EQ 2 had a few systems to stop people from stealing.. but overall? FACTS ARE pree WoW games played WASTLY DIFFRENT THEN how WoW did things.. if you dont want to call that Innovating FINE.. but you cant change facts..
Do you know what a "train" is? and why we used to "kite" so much in the old days? do you know why we used to look for "good Spawn points". When we killed Mobbs in the old days we often looked for a certain condition to make it most effective? you remmber what that was? "PK" often used term you know why? Do you know why I deleveld myself by throwing myself off cliff in Lineage 2? Why would I do that?
Just give me some examples of your pre WoW experince I sure like to know..
Yeah pretty much feel the same way. And then when you have comments like this:
James Ohlen (Bioware Studio Creative Director and LEAD designer) : "One of the problems of other MMOs combat is that often you have scenarios where you have multiple heroes beating on a single enemy.That just isn't very heroic"
It just makes poking fun of TORTANIC that much easier. I mean just a nudge.
City of Heroes had a bunch of the things you're talking about 2 years before WoW. It was the first true 2nd gen MMORPG, and its game engine was waaaay ahead of its time, with extraordinarily fluid combat (only bettered by WoW and GW later).
In fact, it also had full 3-d movement, including aerial combat, 6 years before the over-hyped Aion, as well as things like ragdoll physics, falling damage, and of course character customization up the wazoo. I remember playing WoW and GW after my addiction to CoX, and I was utterly shocked at how primitive they were, in some ways (the restriction of movement was most noticeable), and somehow very "floaty" feeling, not "solid" like CoX.
It also had an innovation, when it first came out (and even for a good few years after WoW) that I wish other games would be brave enough to have - no loot (as such - there were buff power-ups and enhancements for builds, but they dropped randomly and automatically into your inventory).
Loot is the real root of all evil in MMOs, IMHO. It stops game flow, both in a "strategic" sense (gameplay concepts become oriented around getting it) and in a "tactical" sense (peoples' minds are stopped and started by loot considerations in the course of an instance, you can't get a real "flow state" going).
The result is that MMOs become hamster wheels instead of an eternal present "flow state" - chasing a future that never comes, instead of being content with the now.
First of all, WoW didnt "steal" any mechanics. I dont believe thats a good term. Games don't steal ideas from other games.
Second of all, you have to watch your spelling. Because of this, my response is going to be shorter because clearly you havent spent all that much time editing your post. So, you dont really care....?
This is really a non debate issue. There are extensive interviews of Blizzard developers talking about the development of Warcraft. Blizz devs went around and surveyed MMO players asking them what they liked about current games, and what they didnt like.
Thus, WoW had alot of the same concepts as previous games - but stripped down. I think WoW had new ideas, but new ideas don't equal innovation. Innovation is exclusive for people who really push the bar, like Twitter. Twitter is innovative. But is Facebook innovative?
Guess what - when I was in high school in the early 2000's, it was all Myspace. Facebook came AFTER Myspace and the rest was history. But Facebook was based off of Myspace's design. Now shall we call Facebook innovative just because its successful?
I think not. The same with WoW.
And half of these things dont make sense. Zone variety? I played WoW vanilla, there was little to none zone variety back then. If you were alliance, half the time you played in a typical foresty fantasy land. If you were horde, you played in "rough" areas like the Barrens.
WoW had a streamlined quests, with excalamation points on top of their heads. But EQ and other games before it had similar quest designs. You call that innovative?
I could go on but alas, your spelling is horrible and I cant. Sorry.
Nope not terrible timing just piss poor gameplay IMO. The game has tons of potential but they should of taken some of that 300 million $$$ and put it to good use in actual game design and innovative game philosophy. As far as the actual release of the game it has a ton of bugs and not enough content, but in 1 to 2 years it might actually be a decent game sadly 76% of the player base will ahve moved on by that time.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
Oh sure... if this game came out 5 years ago... it would've been MUCH better received.