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Is the Ability system too open?

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  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Originally posted by Vesavius

    Originally posted by Volkmar

    Is the Ability system too open? 

     

    In my experience the community will sort that out, probably before launch even, with declaring a few 'pro' builds to be whats acceptable.

     

    This will probably happen to some degree. You dont have to play with those guys tho.

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  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Hycoo

     You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

    I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by Hycoo

     You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

    I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

    Yeah i was dissapointed aswell when i first heard about it. It wasnt in the original design, so i think it was made like this for a reason.  After thinking about i dont know if it makes much of a difference. The idea is that these skills will kind of be the core of your build. This way hybrids will be mostly focused on one or the other aspect of the two parts you are a hybrid of. Say you are a aoe dps / single target dps character. Your elite skill(s) will determine what you excel at the most. From what I've seen the elite skills come in alot of flavours, but having 2 elite skills will be important for your build.

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  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Hycoo

    Originally posted by arieste


    Originally posted by Hycoo

     You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).

    I hadn't heard of elite skills.  this is somewhat disappointing, because with ONE elite skill, I think it's highly likely that most decks will be built around that 1 skill, which in turn will severely limit the number of viable skills.  This is the first thing i heard about the skill system that i didn't like...

    Yeah i was dissapointed aswell when i first heard about it. It wasnt in the original design, so i think it was made like this for a reason.  After thinking about i dont know if it makes much of a difference. The idea is that these skills will kind of be the core of your build. This way hybrids will be mostly focused on one or the other aspect of the two parts you are a hybrid of. Say you are a aoe dps / single target dps character. Your elite skill(s) will determine what you excel at the most. From what I've seen the elite skills come in alot of flavours, but having 2 elite skills will be important for your build.

    bah.  the more i think about it, the worse it sounds.  so instead of classes you now have "elite skills", which will ultimately be the equivalent of classes, just with different options.  

     

    while it's still tons more options than your average MMO, it's not nearly as diverse as a wide-open system.  

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Well you already have synergies in place making certain skills best suited with eachother, which is what some might wanna call class-like. Still it depends on how many elite skills there are. I would say the elite skills arent that much more powerful, more specialized rather. Again i am not sure if it makes that much of a difference. Guess you would have to see it to believe it :)

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  • bloodbonebloodbone Member Posts: 142

    The problem with a fully open system is that over time as the game matures eventually everyone will be able to do everything (or close too).  The problem here is in an effort to make Charectors as unique as possible the end result is everyone is exactly the same!!   

    While I hated Rift for numerous reasons the fact ultimately everyone would ended up exactly the same was a major reason i quit in a week. IMO Charectors need to have a feel to them, e.g. my bearded old man with a trench coat and a shotgun should be good at single target DPS maybee but if he can do everything eventually his persona is totally lost.

    Hopefully you will only be allowed 1 elite skill (for passive and active) period.... and not per deck.

    Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.

     

        

  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Originally posted by bloodbone

    The problem with a fully open system is that over time as the game matures eventually everyone will be able to do everything (or close too).  The problem here is in an effort to make Charectors as unique as possible the end result is everyone is exactly the same!!   

    While I hated Rift for numerous reasons the fact ultimately everyone would ended up exactly the same was a major reason i quit in a week. IMO Charectors need to have a feel to them, e.g. my bearded old man with a trench coat and a shotgun should be good at single target DPS maybee but if he can do everything eventually his persona is totally lost.

    Hopefully you will only be allowed 1 elite skill (for passive and active) period.... and not per deck.

    Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.

    That everyone will get every skill and gear to support any combination of them is not gonna happen. Those who are very dedicated to the game will after hundeds or thousands of hours do tho. Its a tradeoff with the system that some people dont like, and feels that it makes them less of a character in the end. A guess for me would be that after spending so much time on advancing just one character, i would feel very much connected to him. I could be wrong tho, but im eager to try it.

    But, if you wanna be a character that is only good at pistols and swords you can do that and dont lose out on any content. You dont have use any skill you dont want to. And i think you still will be able to make alts, even tho its not needed. Dont know if this is much of a comfort for you tho.

    The way i see it is that im much more unique with this system than in any other class based system. I am free to build any kind of character i want to. The chances of me being the same as another player in terms skill combination, gear and clothing are very small. Compare this to class based games, where if you are a warrior the chances of you being the same as the next warrior you see are relatively high. Me running around looking and having the exact same skills as the dude next to me is a big turnoff for me. Like watching streams of TERA. The game looks good and the combat engaging, but anyone with a big axe is the same as the next one with a big axe.

    In real life im a good football player, an experienced cook and i have a bachelor degree in engineering. I only use those skills when its suitable tho. I still very much feel like a character tho.

    And no, you will be able to get every elite skill in the game. But they are very expensive :)

     

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  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by bloodbone

    Im guessing the majority of players would agree with me about the Charector feel / persona issue.  After all is everyone is the same in the long run why play an MMO, just play a FPS with different outfits.    

    I doubt that most would agree with this.  Your character is still yoru character. It's defined by YOU, not by what class it is or what you happen to be wearing that day.  

     

    EVE is one of the deepest and best developed games on the market despite the fact that everyone can literally have every single skill.  But their characters are still perfectly well defined and attached to by the players.  

     

    Not to mention taht even with every available possibility, people still tend to choose to focus on something they enjoy rather than changing their character every time they play.    In Rift, even if you have 1000 options to choose from, most people had 3 or 4 set combos that they played, so you knew what to expect from them.   I don't know EVE well enough, but I'm pretty sure that despite being able to do ANYTHING, most people have a couple of roles/loadouts that they prefer playing and they end up playing them most of the time.

     

    From the character-system perspective, TSW  is kinda like the anti-TOR in the sense that instead of forcing you to make 15 alts, you never ever have to make an alt, you just evolve the same character you've been attached to.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • bloodbonebloodbone Member Posts: 142

    "That everyone will get every skill and gear to support any combination of them is not gonna happen. Those who are very dedicated to the game will after hundeds or thousands of hours do tho. Its a tradeoff with the system that some people dont like, and feels that it makes them less of a character in the end."

     

     

    I Guess this is the crux of it if it would be virtually impossible to have ever skill combo (thousands of hours of play) then Im not to concerned about it.  I think the last two posts (after mine) bring up very good points, I just hope there is a real sense of differentation among players and its not assumed everyone (at a certain point in maturity) can do everything.

    One way to achieve this would make each new skill more difficult to achieve then the last which would lead to insane amount of work after say 100 or 150 abilities (sort of like exp.?).  I realize this is not the TSW model, it certainly will take a real "balancing act" though to make it feasable to complete certain trees but extreme difficult to obtain everything.  As long as the later is reserved for crazy ass grinders then Ill be happy.

     

          

  • bloodbonebloodbone Member Posts: 142

    The point about EVE is very true though, I guess that gives the TSW a good real working model upon which to alter and build from as well.  Ive never played EVE but from what I here there system works well. 

  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Just gonne quote a dev of how it most likely will be for most players starting to play TSW:

    The first time we gave the systems to the developers to play with, the first time they were played internally, people went in with this class idea. They thought, ‘I’m Mr Hammer, that’s what I am, that’s what I want to be’. They’d build a hammer wielder but then see someone with a sword doing a nifty dash and think, ‘that looks cool’. So then they’d buy the sword stuff, just for the dash. So then they are hammer guy with the dash. And then they think, ‘when I do the dash I can also knock people over, so let’s take another skill from elsewhere that hits the prone monster hard’. By the end of the process they’re playing a character totally different from what they used to be at the start. We’ve talked a little about templates, which can guide new people and show them the path. But it’s very natural to experiment, sometimes just for the sake of coolness. When I first played I thought, I love pistols, I’m going ot be a pistol guy. So I ran in with dual pistols and I thought, yeah, I’m a kickass pistol guy.

    But then pistols and swords? Even cooler! So I started mucking around with that. So it works on an aesthetic level but also on a pure mechanics level. You might see something useful but you might also just see someone throw a grenade and think, where are grenades? Oh! In assault rifles – better buy into that then because I want a couple of grenades! It’s a metagame. You start playing around in there, maybe to be the best of the best, maybe just for fun. Maybe it’s just because you adjust your playstyle because of certain monsters.

    The thing with the skillwheel is that the first skills you can aquire are rather cheap and general so you can easily try out different weapons and magic. The further into the skillwheel you go the skills gets more expensive and specialized (not stronger).

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207

    Originally posted by bloodbone

    The point about EVE is very true though, I guess that gives the TSW a good real working model upon which to alter and build from as well.  Ive never played EVE but from what I here there system works well. 

    yeah if you specialize you can get up to speed with vets quicker than if you genralize.  But vets have more options in terms of being able to swap decks, run hybrid builds etc..  Looking at the templates, most of the templates seem specialized, except for a couple of mob grinding type templates.

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 674

    No it isnt, about time a game dosnt have a cookie cutter talent tree, for those who find this too open there are plenty of games out there for them that will lead them by the hand.

     

     

    So good to see for once something newish tried,

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,278

    i think each faction should have different abilities. As soon as the developers add the same things to each faction (and make an excuse that is to try and balance pvp) then they prove to be weak in the ability design and pvp balance departments. Templar, Illuminaty, and dragons are 3 kind of people very different to each other taht came from different "countries?" (used the word country to be clear that they are not the same)  so they need to have their own unique abilities. Perhaps also having unique faction abilities as well.

    Flexibility wise, theres not better thing than choosing your own things. Business wise, it is smarter to let players decide how to build their characters and how to live their ingame life, if you want me to pay you monthly at least.





  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Member Posts: 1,277


    Originally posted by rojo6934
    i think each faction should have different abilities. As soon as the developers add the same things to each faction (and make an excuse that is to try and balance pvp) then they prove to be weak in the ability design and pvp balance departments. Templar, Illuminaty, and dragons are 3 kind of people very different to each other taht came from different "countries?" (used the word country to be clear that they are not the same)  so they need to have their own unique abilities. Perhaps also having unique faction abilities as well.
    Flexibility wise, theres not better thing than choosing your own things. Business wise, it is smarter to let players decide how to build their characters and how to live their ingame life, if you want me to pay you monthly at least.

    That's not how this game works. There are plenty of mmos that do this though so no worries if that is the type of game you are looking for. If they did this, I think it would detract from the appeal and quite frankly miss the whole point. I want to choose a faction based on how I want to see the story unfold, how I want to roleplay, and how I want my character to be identified. I don't need another mmo that has people min maxing races and factions for the best combat efficiency. TSW is set on earth, in modern day, with humans as the only playable race. It makes sense to have all factions able to learn all skills.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • OpapanaxOpapanax Member Posts: 973

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    i think each faction should have different abilities. As soon as the developers add the same things to each faction (and make an excuse that is to try and balance pvp) then they prove to be weak in the ability design and pvp balance departments. Templar, Illuminaty, and dragons are 3 kind of people very different to each other taht came from different "countries?" (used the word country to be clear that they are not the same)  so they need to have their own unique abilities. Perhaps also having unique faction abilities as well.

    Flexibility wise, theres not better thing than choosing your own things. Business wise, it is smarter to let players decide how to build their characters and how to live their ingame life, if you want me to pay you monthly at least.

    There will always be some type of FoTM build out there, but with a system like this anything you see being a FoTM will be more hype that actual substance. This is where builds of your liking can really shine because you're not trapped behind what some math major punched out on his/her Texas Instrument and posted to Google.

    Free yourself from the chains that the current MMO genre has had around your hands for the last decade. It really is time to move onto something more. Play the game you want, if you want swords go swords, if you want magic go magic. The game really is more than it's ability system though that should be said now so we don't lose what TSW is really about.

    You must also realize that just because your in one faction doesn't neccessarily mean you're from that region. For example if someone were to defect from the NA's of TSW perhaps they might flee to Asia and join up with the Dragons. They've now taken their "powers" to the other faction.. Vuhauallaa

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,278

    Originally posted by Opapanax

    Originally posted by rojo6934

     

    There will always be some type of FoTM build out there, but with a system like this anything you see being a FoTM will be more hype that actual substance. This is where builds of your liking can really shine because you're not trapped behind what some math major punched out on his/her Texas Instrument and posted to Google.

    Free yourself from the chains that the current MMO genre has had around your hands for the last decade. It really is time to move onto something more. Play the game you want, if you want swords go swords, if you want magic go magic. The game really is more than it's ability system though that should be said now so we don't lose what TSW is really about.

    You must also realize that just because your in one faction doesn't neccessarily mean you're from that region. For example if someone were to defect from the NA's of TSW perhaps they might flee to Asia and join up with the Dragons. They've now taken their "powers" to the other faction.. Vuhauallaa

    i do agree with you and im looking forward to the classless system. What i mean by each faction having different abilities is: a dragon would have its unique playstyle, same for illum and templar. To elaborate a bit here, each faction could have the same abilities but their value differes per faction? maybe dragons have higher martial skills than illuminaty? and templars have higher intelligence than dragons?. Even though they will all be classless, each one can feel more unique when you choose your faction.

    I understand your example about the regions but since its a faction based game each faction should have a different purpose (including unique "features"?), otherwise why have 3 factions if they will play the same?...





  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by Opapanax


    Originally posted by rojo6934

     

    i do agree with you and im looking forward to the classless system. What i mean by each faction having different abilities is: a dragon would have its unique playstyle, same for illum and templar. To elaborate a bit here, each faction could have the same abilities but their value differes per faction? maybe dragons have higher martial skills than illuminaty? and templars have higher intelligence than dragons?. Even though they will all be classless, each one can feel more unique when you choose your faction.

    I understand your example about the regions but since its a faction based game each faction should have a different purpose (including unique "features"?), otherwise why have 3 factions if they will play the same?...

    I am glad they don't give benefits to the different factions. What if i really like what the templars stand for, but want to fight with my fists? I would then feel gimped if they gave such bonuses to the dragons - not fun. Having 3 factions gives flavour to the game, it certainly adds to story and PvP gameplay.

    image
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,278

    Originally posted by Hycoo

    Originally posted by rojo6934


    Originally posted by Opapanax


    Originally posted by rojo6934

     

    I am glad they don't give benefits to the different factions. What if i really like what the templars stand for, but want to fight with my fists? I would then feel gimped if they gave such bonuses to the dragons - not fun. Having 3 factions gives flavour to the game, it certainly adds to story and PvP gameplay.

    of course taht wouldnt mean you would suck with fists if you choose other faction. But like i said, having 3 factions that play exactly the same kills the purpose of having them (for me). At least the lore would be different for each faction (i hope)

     

    edit: ill just have 1 character of each faction, hoping ill have 3 totally different experiences





  • OpapanaxOpapanax Member Posts: 973

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    Originally posted by Opapanax


    Originally posted by rojo6934

     

    There will always be some type of FoTM build out there, but with a system like this anything you see being a FoTM will be more hype that actual substance. This is where builds of your liking can really shine because you're not trapped behind what some math major punched out on his/her Texas Instrument and posted to Google.

    Free yourself from the chains that the current MMO genre has had around your hands for the last decade. It really is time to move onto something more. Play the game you want, if you want swords go swords, if you want magic go magic. The game really is more than it's ability system though that should be said now so we don't lose what TSW is really about.

    You must also realize that just because your in one faction doesn't neccessarily mean you're from that region. For example if someone were to defect from the NA's of TSW perhaps they might flee to Asia and join up with the Dragons. They've now taken their "powers" to the other faction.. Vuhauallaa

    i do agree with you and im looking forward to the classless system. What i mean by each faction having different abilities is: a dragon would have its unique playstyle, same for illum and templar. To elaborate a bit here, each faction could have the same abilities but their value differes per faction? maybe dragons have higher martial skills than illuminaty? and templars have higher intelligence than dragons?. Even though they will all be classless, each one can feel more unique when you choose your faction.

    I understand your example about the regions but since its a faction based game each faction should have a different purpose (including unique "features"?), otherwise why have 3 factions if they will play the same?...

    I see where you are coming from there. You do want each faction to have its own feel and the devs have mentioned that each faction will have abilities that are only availale to them. They will not be combat related however from what I'm understanding, but what their actual function will be is still unknown.

    I'm getting that the devs are trying to get past that bonus for your race because of "this or that' or maybe changing it up at least as I said before. It does make you take a more outside look or rather inside look at character creation. I'm sure it's gonna suck a bit for the altaholics, but thats the beauty there's no real need to "re-rollllll" outside of faction cosmetics and story. You can really add depth to your character.

    To note there are other games that have tried "mirror" mechanics in different ways and to say the least were not very successful in their implementation. Balancing issues that arise from those can be irrepairerable after it's in as a core design in some cases. I'm not saying TSW is K.I.S.S'n but I get the feeling that they may have actually thought this open system through.

    /shrug Feb 21st amirite? 

    PM before you report at least or you could just block.

  • DannyGloverDannyGlover Member Posts: 1,277


    Originally posted by rojo6934
    i do agree with you and im looking forward to the classless system. What i mean by each faction having different abilities is: a dragon would have its unique playstyle, same for illum and templar. To elaborate a bit here, each faction could have the same abilities but their value differes per faction? maybe dragons have higher martial skills than illuminaty? and templars have higher intelligence than dragons?. Even though they will all be classless, each one can feel more unique when you choose your faction.
    I understand your example about the regions but since its a faction based game each faction should have a different purpose (including unique "features"?), otherwise why have 3 factions if they will play the same?...

    The three factions are there for the story. Its the theme of the game. You don't choose a faction based on combat playstyle for this game. I could see them doing faction unique effects for the same skills. For example maybe a Dragon's fireball may look brighter or more magical than say an Illuminati's fireball would look more like a flamethrower effect. They could look different for aesthetic purposes but do the same amount of damage. That would be something pretty cool to add in the future, but its hardly a must have on launch feature.

    I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means - except by getting off his back.

  • HycooHycoo Member UncommonPosts: 217

    Originally posted by rojo6934

    of course taht wouldnt mean you would suck with fists if you choose other faction. But like i said, having 3 factions that play exactly the same kills the purpose of having them (for me). At least the lore would be different for each faction (i hope)

    There will be different story missions for each faction. You can earn ranks within your faction by doing these missions or by doing PvP. Ranks will be rewarded with faction specific uniforms and skills (skills mostly flavour and for outside combat).  By holding Warzones (persistent PvP areas) your whole faction will get server-wide buffs and gain access to special vendors.

    image
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,278

    Originally posted by Hycoo

    Originally posted by rojo6934



    of course taht wouldnt mean you would suck with fists if you choose other faction. But like i said, having 3 factions that play exactly the same kills the purpose of having them (for me). At least the lore would be different for each faction (i hope)

    There will be different story missions for each faction. You can earn ranks within your faction by doing these missions or by doing PvP. Ranks will be rewarded with faction specific uniforms and skills (skills mostly flavour and for outside combat).  By holding Warzones (persistent PvP areas) your whole faction will get server-wide buffs and gain access to special vendors.

    that sounds good enough, i stopped following TSW news when they said theres no open world pvp between factions because they did not have conflicts with each other? that was long time ago so i guess things have been changing, for good. Got to check more often TSW again.





  • iyasu83iyasu83 Member Posts: 2

    Originally posted by Myrdynn

    just because everyone can tank or heal or dps, doesnt mean they want to

     

    Completely agree, cant' wait to see what combination I can develop to fit ohh so many different situations that present in the game unlike set class and tree combinations that are directed from the moment you put a point or specialize into that tree.

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