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Is the Ability system too open?
Volkmar
Member UncommonPosts: 2,501
Hello!
By now we all know how the basics of The Secret World advancement system works.
There are many skills (over 500+) and they work like cards in a deck, you can gain new cards but your deck is always maxed at 7 active and 7 passive abilities, no matter what. So the cool factor is finding new tactics and combos you can use between all the cards.
However, this imply you can switch out the cards as much as you like. Guild Wars had a system like this, but actually that was limited by CLASSES. Each class had its own card lists and you built a deck out of those cards... Secret World has NO classes nor there seem to be any difference between the three factions at all, beside the cosmetic introduction of the decks just announced: basically, some cards are grouped thematically and if you gain all the cards of a certain deck, you gain an outfit that fit the theme. While the Decks are faction based, the skills are NOT (or at least it seems that way).
There was another game that tried something like this, meaning: 1) you can change your abilities very easily and 2) any ability is accessible to any player.
It was called "The Matrix Online" and one of the big flaw of that game was exactly this. By removing the difference or difficulty in switching out ability configurations, you removed something else. Now everyone could just switch to be a tank, healer, dps or what not at the press of a button and somehow this contributed to the failure of the game (granted, that game had so many flaws we cannot really count them).
So my 2 concernes are:
1) No mechanical differences between the three factions.
2) Anyone can be anything and can switch to anything else with little effort. (or relatively little effort as it is not know how hard/easy is to obtain the various abilities)
Do you think this will affect the game? positively or negatively?
Note: I'm not speaking here of open ended skill based systems... other systems like that exist, like UO, SWG or Mortal Online... but in those systems, switching from being a carpenter to a sword master TAKES A LOT OF TIME and effort! here it seems once you have unlocked the right cards, you can just switch back and forth as you please.
Comments
I don't think flexibility has ever killed an MMO. Matrix Online would have died even if it was a class-based game.
Hard classes and other inflexibility have been invented for MMOs for just one simple reason...
Alts
MMOs are designed to be massive time sinks. Make the player play for as long as possible - to keep them paying the subscription.
Sure, there is a population of players who want to think that their character is somewhat special because he/she is of a certain class, but that's just an illusion.
My concern with a system like this is that like in all games there will always be "one spec to ruin them all" and if that is the case then we will have thousands of players in PVP running around with the exact same spec which is a bit boring. But then again that is the case already in games and people also reroll to play the flavor of the month.
I also like when different players have different roles. But that might still be the case depending on how the gear system works. I mean a player that loves to play a tank might have one set of armor with tank-stats and another for dps or whatever role he likes. But I doubt he will have all kinds of gear to be able to shift in and out of every possible role.
I do like the system though but I also have to agree that I haven't followed this game closely the last couple of months so I don't know exactly how much they have revealed about the system.
just because everyone can tank or heal or dps, doesnt mean they want to
there will always be exceptional healing chars, exceptional tanks and guys who will throw out dmg like there's no tomorrow.
you will need to find out what you are good in and then find the best combos in all those skills.
it's not the worst idea imo, no more "uh no no tank online, lets go to sleep", since YOU can actually switch to tank whenever you want, or whenever it's needed.
sure, someone usually playing a dd will most likely not be as efficient as someone playing tank as his main "specc", but it's better than nothing for sure
SWG for example turned from WHOOOHOOOO to "why oh god!? WHY?" when they dissed the open class system imo
so, i dont think having classes is generally a good thing.
ps: y
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
For the last time, really, TSW can not have a "best spec".
Because this is not how combat works. The combat does not rely on tanking, dpsing or healing. There is no "optimal build" because encounters are massively varied and need a strategy not a DPS-cap, armor-cap, healing-cap.
One second you are single target DPS on a Draugr, but you will switch to AOE control when you get swarmed by zombies. If regular mobs will throw AOE-fire on the ground and you will need to keep moving, DOTs are the way to go, etc. pp.
Trying to apply your standard mmo combat categories of "balance", "specs" and "builds" is completely futile with TSW.
AFAIK, every skill has a dmg property and other additional effects that give either control, debufs, buffs, healing, leeching, dots, snares etc.
You will never stand there and spam heals, or fireballs exclusively.
I do not know how much it compares to GW2 but it seems a similar system, except that with TSW you have all skills available for unlock.
And it will be HARD to unlock every skill in TSW. Nobody will be able to fulfill all roles effectively at the beginning. There are over 400 abilities in the game with scaling AP cost.
Unlocking the first tier for -every- weapon will already take a considerable amount of time, and then you only have access to the rudimentary skills of that quadrant. The deeper you go, the more you specialize.
If you want to single target DPS, you might go elementalism, but the rifle-quadrant also has single target dps deeper in its tiers. If you want a lot of AOE control, you might want to go shotguns, but hammers also have control abilities. etc.
PS: because this might not be clear. There will be no "best spec" in the sense of "best dps", because the roles themselves are so massively varied.
You can however be
the best Ranged-DPS-DOT-AOE-Control-Healer
or
the best Melee-CC-AOE-Healer-DOT-Buffer
or
the best Melee-Single-Target-DOT-Debuff-Damage-Mitigator
etc.
The skill system with the easy way to change builds (whenever out of combat) does make the developers free to make a lot more varied encounters. They can have group quests where one encounter requires just very good single target DPS and then the next encounter requires massive AoE. Normally half the characters would be useless in the first encounter and half useless in the second encounter. In TSW you just change build between the encounters.
To start with you aren't going be good at single target dps, tanking Aoe and healing on a single character, but as the game progresses, you will have a character that probably has good builds that should cover two-three of those roles, and some grinders can have characters that fit all roles well.
How can flexibility ever be a bad thing?
How can you consider it a con?
What's wrong with gamers these days...
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
2 things the OP forgot...
1st: Horizontal progression is still a form of progression.
It is not easy to get all skills in the game, you can be a DPS with one tank skill, but to have a full DPS skillset and a full tank skillset is not going to be easy...
There are many forms of tanking, by reading the skills description, you can find leech, block, defense rating, etc, so in some fights, it may be better if you are a tank based on block skills, while in other scenario a bigger health pool with leech skills may be the optimal way to tank.
The same can be said about DPS builds, you can be base your damage in things like AoE skills, penetrating skills, crit skills, +xx% dmg skills, DoT skills... each encounter may have an ideal way to deal damage.
So it is not easy to have an optimal character for any encounter....
2nd: Vertical progression is still in the game.
Chakras and weapons are going to be the gear in this game, and by what the devs are saying, they are going to have very specific stats, making it even harder to be good in any role/scenario.
a quote from
Martin Bruusgaard, Lead Designer :
"There will not be pvp-gear in TSW. You will be able to obtain gear through pvping, but they will not have a particular pvp stat(s). Power wise they can compete with the best PvE gear.
"
At an early stage we discussed having no gear in pvp for the same reasons you are talking about now, but it just won't work in our system. Remember that the stats on the gear has to compliment your build. What is the point of building a deck around awesome stuff happening every time you crit, unless you can affect that crit chance in a way? Yes you can have abilities that boost your crit chance for a few seconds, or a passive or two, but then you're suddenly spending 2 or 3 out of 7 actives, which limits you in what other cool abilities to bring.
I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but we will have some increadibly cool chakras dropping certain places. In addition to stats, they will have triggers like:
"Every time you block an incoming attack, you knock the attacker down."
"Your crowd control abilities last 10% longer".
"Every 10th time you receive healing, you do a pbAoE" (imagine that with leech heals from assault rifle...)
These arent abilities. These are stats/triggers on chakras!
So getting the right gear to compliment your build will be an important part of deckbuilding, and when building group builds, and that's why we have gear in pvp
This is full of awesome
I find it good news that there are no differences between factions. I also find it good news you can be anything you like at any given time. That means a much more flexible character with a combination of combat/tank/healing skills, or a strip-off of skills just before u embark for a dungeon according to the needs of the group:
If you end up waiting to find a tank, you can say "HELL, ill do the tank, get another DPS then", and carry on with your questing or whatever.
Very very nice indeed.
Also at the beggining, what role to choose and how to go around it will be somewhat of a mystery. There is no walk-in-the-park this game. Its gonna take alot more research than usual themepark games. And thats what gives emersion. And longevity. You can change roles at one point or another (granted you have managed to unlock skills of healing, tank or dps) and that will get you to play more and more.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chopgr?feature=mhee
"The Heavens burned, the stars
cried out
And under the ashes of infinity,
Hope, scarred and bleeding,
breathed its last."
Thank you for all the answers.
First of all, just to clarify, I'm all for players being able to do what they want, I am just concerned that if everyone can be easily be everything then it leads to everyone being nothing at all.
I'm relieved to see that unlocking the cards will take some good time and won't be as easy as it was in The matrix game, that will go a long way to make sure players will, at least initially, specialize in some role or function they like.
I've read the press articles about the variety of the boss fights and what not, but I remain skeptical. A bit like in SW:TOR it was supposed that EVERY flashpoint was full of branching storylines and special events... while it was largely the first one that had them and the rest being much more linear :P
Still, all read and seen so far looks and seems really good. If the horizontal progression is slow enough, then that is good for me. I would like to see more differences between the factions though as they are depicted quite iconically and thematically different in all the videos and articles. I assume at least the costumes will vary? Has this ever been discussed if you will always be able to know to what faction a character belongs by just glancing at them?
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
There's actually an interesting video some made, in relation to Guild Wars 1 & 2's skill systems and why the devs changed things. It is quite easy to draw parallels between this and The Secret World's skill system. Feel free to watch it.
Check out Rift. People had the exact same concerns abotu being able to mix abilities from any of the classes and about being able to switch roles on the fly, but largely it has worked really really well and is one of the best things about the game. TSW is even more open than that, but in terms of how people will approach it, i think it's quite similar.
I remember getting into the first few instances in RIft and the entire group going deciding on who tanks, who DPS, whether we need 1 or 2 people healing etc. and then people switching roles and us having a good setup. Then we'd get to a boss and one of the DPS would switch to a secondary healer spec or to a tank spec.. it was pretty awesome.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I doubt this will be the case just because it would kind of spoil the point of having a secret society if you have to wear a uniform. If you could take a glance at a crowd and know which faction everyone belonged to then some of the mystery would imo be lost.
It is gonna take quite a while to get both skills and gear for decks you want to build, so im not too worried about that.
We know that there will be faction specific skills, but how they will be is more uncertain. I think its hinted that they wont be very influencial on gameplay and be mostly faction-flavoured to avoid imbalances between the factions.
The templates each faction can get are different and therefor the outfits you get with them are aswell. Still clothing will come in vide variety so you can dress yourself up however you want. In normal play your clothing dont have to tell anything about what faction you are in, unless you outfit yourself with faction uniforms that are unlocked through faction-missions.
In PvP tho you are automaticly outfitted with uniforms from your faction to signal what kind of role you are (dps, tank, healer, cc etc. or any hybrids of these)
This whole thread actually fills me with some hope. I am cautious, for me Funcom = shitty launch of an underdeveloped game, but then developed into a decent game in the first 6-12 months. I liked AoC and AO, and suspect I will like this game a lot, but both of those launches were a bit rocky, to say the least.
It has broken the trinity, or at the very least, allowed us to be flexible in approaching it. Choice, flexibility, and no difference between pvp sides' mechanics are all good to me. This means everyone can choose the side that interests them the most and still be competitive in pvp. We have three factions, which is also full of win.
The only time this sort of system becomes a problem, is if you are doing high end raiding/powergaming where uptight guilds "demand" you have a certain build (I do not and will not participate with folks who dont let me play my character my way, but this is a factor for some) but even then its not a problem, because they can have a required build for the guild groups and raiding, but then play with other builds when they are on their own.
Choice and flexibility are both missing from far far too many games, both recently released and upcoming. I would rather Funcom tries and fails--and will drop my $60 on their game in good faith--than see an end to flexible, malleable systems and game mechanics.
Flexibility is not a bad thing as such.
But I do think that if you equip a certain skill that should in many casses make certain other skills unequipable at the same time.
As I see it, it is the skills that should be put into classes, not the characters. But you should have to make choices.
If you equip "thief" skills that should possible lock out other kinds of skills (like military skills for example), or allow you to select only one of them. That works very well in P&P games and stops you from just picking all the best skills and have them at the same time.
Flexibility is good but you should also have to make hard choices when you create a spec.. Classes limits your choices permanently, here you can respec between different things as you wish.
In a way, the system does do that by limiting the number of skills you have. So (using your example), if you take the "thief" skill, then every "military" skill you pick prevents you from taking a supporting thief skill. So you can be a thief or a soldier or a half-thief / half-soldier, but you never become BOTH thief AND soldier at the same time because you don't can't take enough skills to fully support both simultaneously.
By reading the articles, it sound very much like skills build on each other, so it's not a particular skill that's powerful, but a combination of complementing skills that is. So taking 7 separate powerful skills won't give you nearly as good a character as taking 7 complementing skills or 3 complementing plus 4 complenting, etc. At least that's how i read it.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
That you are limited to 7 active skills and 7 passive skills at once is a hard choice in itself. I have seen some examples of especially passive skills that all seem to fit a build nicely, but you have to leave so many of them out of your build. You are also limited to 2 elite skills (1 active and 1 passive i think) which will be stronger than other skills, also making it hard to choose (not so sure i like the idea of elite skills tho, we'll see when the game launches).
Also you can ''only'' use 2 weapons at once. Most active skills are tied to weapon type, while passive skills can be used much more freely (tho not all of them).
All the time i see people thinking that in this system people can just switch roles all the time and do them all equally. You can do this, but only after spending a large amount of time building decks for the different roles, almost like leveling and getting gear for an alt. Still people tend to stick with the playstyle they like, i dont see everyone being the same in the end.
In my experience the community will sort that out, probably before launch even, with declaring a few 'pro' builds to be whats acceptable.
*swoons*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is very much how it works. Not only on a character level, but also on a group level. Its all about putting enemies in different states and taking advantage of these states.
At the same time there will be many ways to fullfill different roles. For example you might have a tank that focuses on just blocking, where he gets certain benefits from blocking (healing self and damaging enemy), or you can have a tank/dps who rely on lifeleech to stay alive, or a tank that uses protective charms to soak up damage, or a tank with an enourmous healthbar, or a tank that has a massive amount of armor etc. All these different ways to play are supported by the gear you can get (9 chakras + 1 weapon) that can get very specific for different playstyles.